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  1. Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Every person has to decide what God wants him or her to do. If any think that continuing the dialog is useful and that God wants them to keep trying then that is what they should do. If you feel God is telling you it is time to move on then you should move on. Scripture on one hand tells us to be ready to give an answer to any of the hope that lies within us. Scripture also says there is a time to shake the dust off our feet if someone refuses to hear us and also not to cast our pearls before swine. That is not my words but scripture. So again each person has to decide what God has put on their heart.
    Absolutely true HK, but I have participated on many other sites and this one so far has been very benign with excellent discussions for the most part. If you debate with people that are not saved about your faith, you can't expect agreement. Iceman is correct that we need to show the fruits of a Christian even in disagreement. If all that we have are insults and name calling, absolutely, time to go. Deep doubt based questioning doesn't bother me. After all that was how I became a Christian. The Bible has the answers to those doubts for anyone willing to actually look.

    I remember seeing an old clip of Linus Pauling being questioned in the early 1960's near the time he received his second Nobel prize. He was being barraged by a reporter and he calmly and eloquently defended his position completely unflappable. I have always remembered that exchange since I am quite short tempered myself. Jesus had great patience with those searching but not yet able to find since He also had all of the answers to their questions, consider Nicodemis.

    I went and preached at the maximum security prison located in our town for several years with very, very few that I believe really were changed. Out of all that time, only one man really stood out as a changed man that I believe in my heart did benefit not only from my preaching but many others. Considering the hundreds of inmates that I preached to, one person seems like such a minimal harvest, but he justified the time that I spent there completely. Once again, just remember that there are many more that view than post. Seeing someone that can answer with godly answers from the Bible is an example that we should all strive for. Lastly, we don't know how the Lord will use what we put forth. The number of places where we can openly confront people with the gospel is very limited and getting less and less. The internet is one exception so far. My feeling is we should speak of the truth of the gospel wherever we still have the opportunity. Just my take on a divisive issue.

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  3. #202
    I too agree that we are probably going to never fully come to an agreement, especially when it comes to religious beliefs, or disbeliefs. If we could all come to an agreement then we would all see the "light" and become atheists (or christians ;) I guess ). At any rate having a good discussion is always interesting and enlightening. I will learn from you, and you will learn from me. I am in no way looking to get saved, nor do I want you to just throw in the towel, just because we hit 20something pages... (my goal is to hit at least 50 ).

    Good enough pep talk? Now lets get back into the trenches!

  4. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    Galileo was persecuted by the Catholic inquisition. They also burned people at the stake that believe as I do that the Bible is our final written authority. What are you trying to imply?
    Just trying to imply that most of the violence that has been commited over history has been over some sort of power struggle. Which usually has some sort of religious ties to it. Either a political leader (or someone who wants to be a political leader) will use religion as a way to rally his/her people into a fight. And since those who have religion, believe whole hartedly in it. And the blind faith makes it easy to manipulate those believers.

    If you do not question what you believe then, why follow it. I do not blindly follow our political leaders, just because a majority vote put them in place. I will question anything and everything that is put in front of me, until I have undeniable proof that it is true. And an old ass book with some stories in it does not constitute proof. Just because there is a book that describes in detail that zombies exist, does not mean that they actually do. And, as for as pointing fingers at the no no it wasn't me it was the catholics that did that. The catholics are crazy... But, dont the christians and the catholics preach from the same book? But, for some reason you are right and they are wrong? Seems like the catholics have the same beliefs but are just a bit more militant about keeping their faith. Just like many movements, there is a peaceful political side, then there is also the militant side that isn't afraid to get their hands dirty. Each side with the same ultimate goal... to gain power for their cause.

    Of course you dont see scientists doing this. When was the last time you saw a scientist in a power struggle for an unproveable belief? A scientist will do the research, and the tests to proove a theory. Then he will present the information for everyone to learn from. The world is not flat, the sun does not revolve around the earth...

    Also mentioned was that christians are a peaceful religion that just wants to spread the word... Well, although I'm not quite as versed in the following, isn't that the same as mormons, jahova witnesses, and budism, scientology, (along with hundreds of other religions). Each of them have their own book that they profess is the word of their deity. And each try and preach that they are the right one. So what makes you feel that yours is the right one and that everyone else is going to go to hell? Because your book says so? Well thats what their book says also (minus the going to hell part as applicable). And please, dont use the because god sent his son Jesus to earth excuse either, I've seen Life of Brian, if people want a way out of a desperate situation, they will tend to believe, and follow anything and anyone that will help them.

  5. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Onlinedad View Post
    Just trying to imply that most of the violence that has been commited over history has been over some sort of power struggle. Which usually has some sort of religious ties to it. Either a political leader (or someone who wants to be a political leader) will use religion as a way to rally his/her people into a fight. And since those who have religion, believe whole hartedly in it. And the blind faith makes it easy to manipulate those believers.

    If you do not question what you believe then, why follow it. I do not blindly follow our political leaders, just because a majority vote put them in place. I will question anything and everything that is put in front of me, until I have undeniable proof that it is true. And an old ass book with some stories in it does not constitute proof. Just because there is a book that describes in detail that zombies exist, does not mean that they actually do. And, as for as pointing fingers at the no no it wasn't me it was the catholics that did that. The catholics are crazy... But, dont the christians and the catholics preach from the same book? But, for some reason you are right and they are wrong? Seems like the catholics have the same beliefs but are just a bit more militant about keeping their faith. Just like many movements, there is a peaceful political side, then there is also the militant side that isn't afraid to get their hands dirty. Each side with the same ultimate goal... to gain power for their cause.

    Of course you dont see scientists doing this. When was the last time you saw a scientist in a power struggle for an unproveable belief? A scientist will do the research, and the tests to proove a theory. Then he will present the information for everyone to learn from. The world is not flat, the sun does not revolve around the earth...

    Also mentioned was that christians are a peaceful religion that just wants to spread the word... Well, although I'm not quite as versed in the following, isn't that the same as mormons, jahova witnesses, and budism, scientology, (along with hundreds of other religions). Each of them have their own book that they profess is the word of their deity. And each try and preach that they are the right one. So what makes you feel that yours is the right one and that everyone else is going to go to hell? Because your book says so? Well thats what their book says also (minus the going to hell part as applicable). And please, dont use the because god sent his son Jesus to earth excuse either, I've seen Life of Brian, if people want a way out of a desperate situation, they will tend to believe, and follow anything and anyone that will help them.
    And the earth is warming and we're all gonna die. I'm focusing in on the "science" parts of your missives, OD, as I'm thinking you're giving much more credence to scientists than I certainlly would. You seem to be nailing Christians for all their human frailties but assigning halos of righteousness to scientists. Will you agree that some scientists lied about the data they collected as per global warming?

    I could cite many instances of "scientists" not acting in the interest of science but to foster their own personal aggrandizement, to obtain grant money, or in the furtherance of a political goal. OK...and I don't put this info out there much, never have...but I hold a science doctorate, so I speak from many years of personal experience. IMO, it is wise to question everything and everyone; no one gets a pass because of the degree they hold, the work they do, the business they're in, or their political persuasion.
    Prov. 27:3 - "Stone is heavy and sand a burden, but provocation by a fool is heavier than both"

  6. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by JJFlash View Post
    And the earth is warming and we're all gonna die. I'm focusing in on the "science" parts of your missives, OD, as I'm thinking you're giving much more credence to scientists than I certainlly would. You seem to be nailing Christians for all their human frailties but assigning halos of righteousness to scientists. Will you agree that some scientists lied about the data they collected as per global warming?

    I could cite many instances of "scientists" not acting in the interest of science but to foster their own personal aggrandizement, to obtain grant money, or in the furtherance of a political goal. OK...and I don't put this info out there much, never have...but I hold a science doctorate, so I speak from many years of personal experience. IMO, it is wise to question everything and everyone; no one gets a pass regardless of the degree they hold, the work they do, the business they're in, or their political persuasion.
    I'm not trying to say that scientists are perfect, and infallable because no one is. Neither do we have perfect technology that explains all. We use what we have at the time to make the best decisions possible, and as technology improves, then we must update our findings accordingly (pluto used to be considered a planet, up until recently when our technology improved, which gave us the knowledge and means to disqualify it as a planet).

    However, I've never heard of any wars, or terrorist acts commited in the name of science.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Onlinedad View Post
    Just trying to imply that most of the violence that has been commited over history has been over some sort of power struggle. Which usually has some sort of religious ties to it. Either a political leader (or someone who wants to be a political leader) will use religion as a way to rally his/her people into a fight. And since those who have religion, believe whole hartedly in it. And the blind faith makes it easy to manipulate those believers.

    If you do not question what you believe then, why follow it. I do not blindly follow our political leaders, just because a majority vote put them in place. I will question anything and everything that is put in front of me, until I have undeniable proof that it is true. And an old ass book with some stories in it does not constitute proof. Just because there is a book that describes in detail that zombies exist, does not mean that they actually do. And, as for as pointing fingers at the no no it wasn't me it was the catholics that did that. The catholics are crazy... But, dont the christians and the catholics preach from the same book? But, for some reason you are right and they are wrong? Seems like the catholics have the same beliefs but are just a bit more militant about keeping their faith. Just like many movements, there is a peaceful political side, then there is also the militant side that isn't afraid to get their hands dirty. Each side with the same ultimate goal... to gain power for their cause.

    Of course you dont see scientists doing this. When was the last time you saw a scientist in a power struggle for an unproveable belief? A scientist will do the research, and the tests to proove a theory. Then he will present the information for everyone to learn from. The world is not flat, the sun does not revolve around the earth...

    Also mentioned was that christians are a peaceful religion that just wants to spread the word... Well, although I'm not quite as versed in the following, isn't that the same as mormons, jahova witnesses, and budism, scientology, (along with hundreds of other religions). Each of them have their own book that they profess is the word of their deity. And each try and preach that they are the right one. So what makes you feel that yours is the right one and that everyone else is going to go to hell? Because your book says so? Well thats what their book says also (minus the going to hell part as applicable). And please, dont use the because god sent his son Jesus to earth excuse either, I've seen Life of Brian, if people want a way out of a desperate situation, they will tend to believe, and follow anything and anyone that will help them.
    Dear Onlinedad, if you tell me not to preach the gospel (that Jesus died on the cross for the sins of the whole earth) then we really have come to the end of this discussion since that IS the discussion. Did Jesus come and do and be the person that He said He is and was? That is the entire issue right there. You tell me not to use the Bible as my evidence. Are you serious? You want to frame the discussion to not include the Bible or the gospel? Sorry, but that is the entire argument. Sorry, but if you don't want to hear about these issues, then 20 pages is already way to many.

    Now, if you change your mind and want to learn something about the Bible and how that atheists are not the biggest enemy of the Bible, religion is and always has been. Just for your information, God does not believe in atheists. You should truly read about what Jesus had to say about religion.

    Now, the Bible issue and Catholics. In 1216 AD, Pope Leo III started the inquisition. In 1229 AD, Pope Gregory IX, (his nephew) took the Bible away from the common people. It was not until Vatican II that they began to "allow" their parisheners to even read the Bible and mass was no longer in Latin. People talk about the dark ages, but the reason that they were so dark was because of th enemies of the Bible taking the light of God away from the people, that is why they were dark. During these times, some of the greates atrocities of all time occurred such as St. Bartholomews Massacre: If you want to learn what was known at the start of our country when America was founded as a Christian nation under religious freedom, Foxes Book of Martyrs is the place to start. Please note, the real book is actually several volumes, not just the very short abridged versions you will see online and on sale.

    Foxes' Book of Martyrs

    As far as the Bible versions go, there is the Catholic line and then that which came out of the believers. I won't go into that can of worms here, but before you assume that all "Christians" are the same, and that all Bibles are the same, I would highly recommend that you actually look into the issue in detail for yourself.

    As far as blindly believing and not questioning, that is also another false belief about Christianity. I continue to ask God and search for answers on many issues all the time. Dear Onlinedad, if you are going to reject Christianity for yourself, so be it. But if you are going to teach your children to reject true Christianity with your limited and yes, confused assumptions of what it really is, then the day you stand before God and explain that will not be good my friend.

    So, I have a couple of rules for you, please do not give me examples of other religious entities as a basis for what you wrongly attribute to those of my faith, and secondly open your mind to looking at the Bible itself to see what it says alone. It is afterall the true, literal word of God. The day that I understand that simple fact is the very day that I got saved.

    Lastly, don't dismiss easily what I am warning you about sincerely. I wouldn't waste my time here or in the prisons or on the streets or at people's door step or from the pulpit if I had not questioned and doubted and had God Himself answer those questions directly and specifically. There is a reason that I am no longer a Boston liberal any longer, Jesus entered into my life and turned it around, well I should say, is turning it around, He still has a lot to work on in my error filled life. I invite you to join the real search for answers that can only be found in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour. If you don't get into this game, what game you played here on earth will be completely wasted. By the way, I was already a graduate of medical school and an internal medicine residency with my undergraduate degree in Biology with minors in Math and Chemistry. I did not enter into my relationship with Jesus with my eyes closed, you are greatly in error in that assumption my friend.

    So, do you really want to discuss this issue, or will you continue to skirt the issue. The choice is yours my friend.

  8. #207
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debray View Post
    America is a Christian Nation...On our currency we have “In God We Trust”
    How does “In God We Trust” on our currency make us a Christian Nation? I thought Christians refused to submit their religion to the authority of the civil magistrate because they held that only God has authority over their religion.

  9. #208
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    Mark 12:17.

    The nation belongs to Caesar. Only the souls of those so inclined to believe belong to god.

    Those parts of the 1st Amendment relating to the freedom of speech guarantee each of us the right to speak our minds about anything and everything on them. What it does not guarantee us is an audience for the things we might choose to say. You have the right to speak. You do not have the right to force others to listen, because they have the right to ignore you. Likewise, we have the right to write any original thing we want to write. You do not have the right to force others to read it, because they have the right to ignore you.

    Then, we come to the point of confluence of both of those and the remainder of the 1st Amendment. You have the right to believe any and everything you choose to under the guise of religion. Jesus is Christ; there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet; there is no god, period; there are lots of gods; Cthuhlu flagan; whatever you want. As a component of that religious faith, you are free to hold that it is incumbent upon you as a believer to spread the faith to any and all others who walk the Earth. That's perfectly honorable. However, the way in which you have to do this, chiefly, will be in the form of talking to the benighted heathens and shoving pamphlets into their hands.

    I'm sure a lot of you already see where I'm going with this... You have the right to proselytize. Those to whom you would proselytize HAVE THE RIGHT TO IGNORE YOU!
    When they "Nudge. Shove. Shoot.",
    Don't retreat. Just reload.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Charles Cooper View Post
    How does “In God We Trust” on our currency make us a Christian Nation? I thought Christians refused to submit their religion to the authority of the civil magistrate because they held that only God has authority over their religion.
    Dear Charles, I dont' believe we need to defend the Quote "In God We Trust" as evidence of America being a Christian nation, at least when it was founded. Interestingly, I would ask you what God is trusted on our coins and money. Let me give you two examples, and then we can answer the same question from that perspective.

    First: Liberty Eagle 1933. If you look on the obverse, you see Lady Liberty, and on the other side is an eagle with the words "In God We Trust." Are they telling they trust in the goddess Lady Liberty?

    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...uble_eagle.JPG

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liberty_(goddess)

    Second: Federal Reserve One Dollar Note. Look at the all seeing eye of Horus, and then the words: In God We Trust.

    Money…The God of the United States. DiscernIt

    Now from the Bible:

    Revelation 18:1And after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.

    2And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.

    3For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.

    4And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

    5For her sins have reached unto heaven, and God hath remembered her iniquities.

    Most people have no clue what Mystery Bablyon is all about, but you should, it is all around us. If you are against religion, man, this is the one you need to know and understand and fight against.

    Third: How many people know what is in the top of the capital dome? Not many. Take a look from the capital website:

    The Apotheosis of Washington

    If you don't like the Christian influence in America, what are your thoughts on the pagan religion placed in the highest, literally, halls of American power?

    If you want to learn and understand what Mystery Babylon is all about, go to the internet and read an old, but not ancient, book by Rev. Alexandar Hislop: The Two Babylons.

    The Two Babylons

    So, religion, yeah, not good. A relationship with the true Creator of the universe, it is out of this world and you need to find out why so many of us on this thread stand with Him as our Saviour.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by CathyInBlue View Post
    Mark 12:17.

    The nation belongs to Caesar. Only the souls of those so inclined to believe belong to god.

    Those parts of the 1st Amendment relating to the freedom of speech guarantee each of us the right to speak our minds about anything and everything on them. What it does not guarantee us is an audience for the things we might choose to say. You have the right to speak. You do not have the right to force others to listen, because they have the right to ignore you. Likewise, we have the right to write any original thing we want to write. You do not have the right to force others to read it, because they have the right to ignore you.

    Then, we come to the point of confluence of both of those and the remainder of the 1st Amendment. You have the right to believe any and everything you choose to under the guise of religion. Jesus is Christ; there is no god but Allah and Mohammed is his prophet; there is no god, period; there are lots of gods; Cthuhlu flagan; whatever you want. As a component of that religious faith, you are free to hold that it is incumbent upon you as a believer to spread the faith to any and all others who walk the Earth. That's perfectly honorable. However, the way in which you have to do this, chiefly, will be in the form of talking to the benighted heathens and shoving pamphlets into their hands.

    I'm sure a lot of you already see where I'm going with this... You have the right to proselytize. Those to whom you would proselytize HAVE THE RIGHT TO IGNORE YOU!
    Amen, we are used to shaking the dust from our feet, but then we turn and go on. It is your choice to listen or ignore. I couldn't agree with you more. Jesus never says that He will save all, but He does command that we preach to all and leave it in their choice. That is what free will gives us. You can't force someone to love you, it is a free will choice. There is no love without free will. Anyone that gets upset reading this thread should not have opened a thread with the title it has. WHAT DID YOU THINK IT WAS GOING TO SAY? Sorry, but anyone that is offended by Christians showing evidence of Christianity in America on this thread should have ignored it in the first place.

    Cheers,

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