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  1. #341
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    Quote Originally Posted by twogunwilly View Post
    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god.with liberty and justice for all.
    Which God are we under and what other duties are owed to him?

    this is what I was taught, this is what I believe.
    Why do you believe Congress should advise you on the question of whether or not to be under God. Shouldn't you let God advise you on that issue?

    what good did taking god out of the class room achieve?
    You must have an extremely weak God.

    why would liberals want to take away the pledge?
    I don't know. Do you know it was written by a Christian Socialist? Did you know that the author of the Pledge wrote a sermon titled "Jesus the Socialist?"

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  3. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by twogunwilly View Post
    I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under god.with liberty and justice for all.

    this is what I was taught, this is what I believe. what good did taking god out of the class room acheive? why would liberals want to take away the pledge? Is it because libretards want a different flag or is it half a century of wishing we were Canada.
    This can be used toward other people as well not just you TwoGun,

    Just because we used to do something doesnt make it right. We used to burn people at the stake, we used to own other people, we used to beat our wives, and children, we used to think the world was flat, we used to think the sun revolved around the earth, Shall I continue?

    Just because something is/was a tradition, does not make it right. We can and should use our knowledge and expieriences on a move forward basis. Not hold onto wrong beliefs just because thats what we used to do.

  4. #343
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    Quote Originally Posted by wolfhunter View Post
    Most of the American legal system is based on Sir William Blackstone's" Commentaries on the Laws of England". Most of this was based on Judeo-Christian values such as the Ten Commandments
    Nope. You're wrong.

    The Constitution of the United States didn't adopt the Judeo-Christian value found in the Ten Commandments which mandates that, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery...Do not have any other gods before me." The Constitution contains nothing whatsoever to suggest that the God who brought the Hebrews out of the land of Egypt is the God of the American people or that Americans can't put other deities before the one who supposedly brought the Hebrews out of the land of Egypt.

    The only Christian value in the Constitution is the strict separation of religion from the authority of the U. S. Government.

    It is because of this that America (the United States, for those who want to quibble over terms) is considered a Christian nation.
    Nope. Any nation that allows the civil magistrate as much authority over religion as the U. S. does, has forfeited the right to be known as a Christian Nation. The Blessed Savior himself laid down the divine rule that his people are forbidden to render to Caesar the duties they owe to their Creator.

  5. #344
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigrebnc1861 View Post
    Just my opinion but I find nothing humorous about what you posted. I find it insulting but this is America and we must live with our opinions of anothers faith.
    I find this very humorous also. Onlinedad, do you have any more pictures of that blond with the snake?

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Onlinedad View Post
    Really? Do you think that I have any fear of posting anything? I'm pretty sure that I am also protected under our constitution of freedom of speach. So I can make any statement I want about religion, also incorporating my freedom from religion right as well. I have as much fear of the wrath of some crazy religious nutjob muslim, etc, as I do in going to hell. Oh wait they are just about the same thing anyway, execpt that maybe recent events prove that the muslims usually follow through with their threats. (I'll also avoid the point that since there hasn't been any other religions spokespersons stepping up here, that any other attempt at humor toward a different religion would probably fall short anyway.)

    Of course maybe I could pick apart your statement, and say that I'm sure their are many other religions that I can insult without consequences. Or that by insulting your religion that I would be threatend with an eternity in hell... IF god made us, then he also made us as to be curious, and to question the things around us. So why would he get mad at us if we do act upon our "god given nature"? We are supposed to believe some book says to believe? I think I will question that as well.

    And, I dont insist that you act as respectful christians... I guess I prefer it though, because I know that you guys have a pretty shady history of violence toward non-believers, anyway. No need to have any more violent religious believers...


    Oh yeah, I'm sorry if you did not get, or understand my humor. But, just believe that its there, then it will be.
    You call that an apology? Thanks but no thanks Onlinedad. If you can't understand why your post is offensive to Christians, than so be it. I have nothing more to say to you since you truly don't want to understand our faith, only to castigate it.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Onlinedad View Post
    This can be used toward other people as well not just you TwoGun,

    Just because we used to do something doesnt make it right. We used to burn people at the stake, we used to own other people, we used to beat our wives, and children, we used to think the world was flat, we used to think the sun revolved around the earth, Shall I continue?

    Just because something is/was a tradition, does not make it right. We can and should use our knowledge and expieriences on a move forward basis. Not hold onto wrong beliefs just because thats what we used to do.
    Dear Onlinedad, when you are ready to address the objective questions I posed, then come forth and deal with reality. Otherwise, all of your posts are nothing but non sequitur arguments. Why do you continue to dodge true questions of the Bible? Perhaps becuase you are afraid of a real answer.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Charles Cooper View Post
    Nope. You're wrong.

    The Constitution of the United States didn't adopt the Judeo-Christian value found in the Ten Commandments which mandates that, "I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery...Do not have any other gods before me." The Constitution contains nothing whatsoever to suggest that the God who brought the Hebrews out of the land of Egypt is the God of the American people or that Americans can't put other deities before the one who supposedly brought the Hebrews out of the land of Egypt.

    The only Christian value in the Constitution is the strict separation of religion from the authority of the U. S. Government.

    Nope. Any nation that allows the civil magistrate as much authority over religion as the U. S. does, has forfeited the right to be known as a Christian Nation. The Blessed Savior himself laid down the divine rule that his people are forbidden to render to Caesar the duties they owe to their Creator.
    Dear Charles, you are a poor theologian and it appears that you are also a poor historian. First, the entire three part, competing, structure of our government is based on one verse out of Isaiah 33:22:

    22For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us.

    The Story of the Constitution

    In addition, according to the NT, all of those in civil government are ministers of God doing His will:

    1Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

    2Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

    3For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

    4For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to [execute] wrath upon him that doeth evil.

    5Wherefore [ye] must needs be subject, not only for wrath, but also for conscience sake.

    6For for this cause pay ye tribute also: for they are God's ministers, attending continually upon this very thing.

    For someone that seems to know history, how is it that you have pieced together only those aspects of American history that support your view and yet you have overlooked the thousands of historical documents, references and quotes that show that America is a Christian nation, based on the rule of law as ordained by God. Your posts are thus void of any academic balances making them null and void due to your obvious bias. For every example of the enemies of Christianity that you can come up with, I am sure that you are ingoring dozens of other references stating the Christian principles of our government. Let's go back to an old one I already posted on, the 1780 Massachussetts constitution:

    Constitution of Massachusetts

    1780

    PREAMBLE

    The end of the institution, maintenance, and administration of government is to secure the existence of the body-politic, to protect it, and to furnish the individuals who compose it with the power of enjoying, in safety and tranquillity, their natural rights and the blessings of life; and whenever these great objects are not obtained the people have a right to alter the government, and to take measures necessary for their safety, prosperity, and happiness.

    The body politic is formed by a voluntary association of individuals; it is a social compact by which the whole people covenants with each citizen and each citizen with the whole people that all shall be governed by certain laws for the common good. It is the duty of the people, therefore, in framing a constitution of government, to provide for an equitable mode of making laws, as well as for an impartial interpretation and a faithful execution of them; that every man may, at all times, find his security in them.

    We, therefore, the people of Massachusetts, acknowledging, with grateful hearts, the goodness of the great Legislator of the universe, in affording us, in the course of His providence, an opportunity, deliberately and peaceably, without fraud, violence, or surprise, of entering into an original, explicit, and solemn compact with each other, and of forming a new constitution of civil government for ourselves and posterity; and devoutly imploring His direction in so interesting a design, do agree upon, ordain, and establish the following declaration of rights and frame of government as the constitution of the commonwealth of Massachusetts.

    PART THE FIRST

    A Declaration of the Rights of the Inhabitants of the Commonwealth of Massachusetts.

    Article I. All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness.

    Art. II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession or sentiments, provided he doth not disturb the public peace or obstruct others in their religious worship.

    Art. III. As the happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend upon piety, religion, and morality, and as these cannot be generally diffcused through a community but by the institution of the public worship of God and of the public instructions in piety, religion, and morality: Therefore, To promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic or religious societies to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.

    And the people of this commonwealth have also a right to, and do, invest their legislature with authority to enjoin upon all the subject an attendance upon the instructions of the public teachers aforesaid, at stated times and seasons, if there be any on whose instructions they can conscientiously and conveniently attend.

    Provided, notwithstanding, That the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic, or religious societies, shall at all times have the exclusive right and electing their public teachers and of contracting with them for their support and maintenance.

    And all moneys paid by the subject to the support of public worship and of public teachers aforesaid shall, if he require it, be uniformly applied to the support of the public teacher or teachers of his own religious sect or denomination, provided there be any on whose instructions he attends; othewise it may be paid toward the support of the teacher or teachers of the parish or precinct in which the said moneys are raised.

    And every denomination of Christians, demeaning themselves peaceably and as good subjects of the commonwealth, shall be equally under the protection of the law; and no subordination of any sect or denomination to another shall ever be established by law.

    CHAPTER II.--EXECUTIVE POWER

    Section I,--Governor

    Article I. There shall be a supreme executive magistrate, who shall be styled "The governor of the commonwealth of Massachusetts;" and whose title shall be "His Excellency."

    Art. II. The governor shall be chosen annually; and no person shall be eligible to this office, unless, at the time of his election, he shall have been an inhabitant of this commonwealth for seven years next preceding; and unless he shall, at the same time, be seized, in his own right, of a freehold, within the commonwealth, of the value of one thousand pounds; and unless he shall declare himself to be of the Christian religion.

    CHAPTER VI.

    Oaths and Subscriptions; Incompatibility of and Exclusion from Offices; Pecuniary Qualifications; Commissions; Writs; Confirmation of Laws; Habeas Corpus; The Enacting Style; Continuance of Officers; Provision for a Future Revisal of the Constitution, etc.

    Article I. Any person chosen governor, lieutenant-governor, councillor, senator, or representative, and accepting the trust, shall, before he proceed to execute the duties of his place or office, make and subscribe the following declaration, viz:

    "I, A.B., do declare that I believe the Christian religion, and have a firm persuasion of its truth; and that I am seized and possessed, in my own right, of the property required by the constitution, as one qualification for the office or place to which I am elected."

  9. Dear Charles,

    Please comment on why the first ammendment of our US constitution did not overturn any of the state constitutions and their outright declaration of the Protestent, Christian religion:

    Amendment I

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.


    Massachussetts 1780 Constitution:

    Art. II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession or sentiments, provided he doth not disturb the public peace or obstruct others in their religious worship.

    Art. III. As the happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend upon piety, religion, and morality, and as these cannot be generally diffcused through a community but by the institution of the public worship of God and of the public instructions in piety, religion, and morality: Therefore, To promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic or religious societies to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.

    You will find that the prohibitions in the first ammendment were only for the purpose of not establishing one of the Christian denominations over another such as Catholics in France, Church of England, etc. The first amendment in no manner limited the expression of Christian sentiment in the government.

  10. #349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    First, the entire three part, competing, structure of our government is based on one verse out of Isaiah 33:22:
    22For the LORD [is] our judge, the LORD [is] our lawgiver, the LORD [is] our king; he will save us.
    We don't have a king. Furthermore, under our system of secular democratic republicanism, a person can't be a judge and a lawmaker at the same time. We follow the Non-Biblical doctrine of Separation of Powers.

    In addition, according to the NT, all of those in civil government are ministers of God doing His will:
    I see. So, it was God's will for the Roman magistrate to torture and kill an innocent man named Jesus.

    Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
    The people of the United States, when they established a Godless Constitution, rejected that view in favor of the maxim that the people are the source from which all legitimate civil authority is derived.

  11. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    Dear Onlinedad, when you are ready to address the objective questions I posed, then come forth and deal with reality. Otherwise, all of your posts are nothing but non sequitur arguments. Why do you continue to dodge true questions of the Bible? Perhaps becuase you are afraid of a real answer.
    I was/am still trying to hold off on some of your previous questions/examples of proof, until I could here from some other religious backgrounds. You see, I am pretty skeptical of the only available proof of the existance of whatever, is one book. No matter how many parts of the one book that is thrown around it doesn't proove without a doubt that it is factually accurate. You see, from my perspective, I see the bible as another book written and edited by man. This same book has been interpreted and misinterpreted by everyone that has read it. The words within it have been used to justify many atrocities throughout history, up to and including the present.

    What I find offensive is that anyone would want to continue to associate themselves with such a group that has had such a history of sensless violence in the name of a higher power.

    Here, lets try this analogy: Lets say your on a bowling team. And to be on a bowling team you had to follow a set of written rules, that were set down 100's of years ago. Lets say one of those rules said something like, you must elliminate all non-bowlers, and that you could pretty much take anything you wanted from non-bowlers, like their property, their lands, their life... Now once you heard this rule wouldn't you throw up the ******** flag and question the mindset, and the authority of whoever wrote those rules? And, also wouldn't you tend to stay away from the craziness of that team?

    Well thats close to where I am at. As I grew up I was forced to go to a christian church, and study the christian interpritation of the bible. Unfortunately for the church though, I was born a free willed, and free thinking person. I saw through the hypocracy of the church and its teachings. So, yes I will question your faith, and I will try and get you to question it as well.

    here are some things to refference back to:

    But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them - the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites ... - just as the Lord your God has commanded." (Deut 20:16-17) Sounds like a directive to kill any non believers...

    "And at the seventh time, when the priests had blown the trumpets, Joshua said to the people, "Shout! For the Lord has given you the city [Jericho]. The city and all that is in it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:16-21)
    more acts of violence in the name of god, toward non-believers...

    "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

    "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16) SWEET! Now god is saying to rape women too! All for not believing.

    "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

    "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:6-7) Alright more justification for killing

    "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6) Are you still feeling good towards your history? God is commanding it, so better follow him, so this doesn't happen to me.

    "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Revelation 7:3-4)

    "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." (Revelation 9:3-4)

    "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)

    "...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." (Revelation 14:3-4)
    Wow, so only 144,000 virgin jews with a mark on their heads will survive? Do you realize that this means the death of everyone on earth but a few virgin Jews? And this includes the destruction of all Christians....sounds like you will suffer just like the rest of us.


    Christians haven't changed, the world has. Fundamentalist Christians still believe that without Jesus one will go to hell. They've just found that their opposition has grown too strong for them to freely commit physical assaults-most of the time. Christians are restrained by secular society. That, and no other reason, is why they behave themselves.

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