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Thread: America is a Christian Nation

  1. #351
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    Dear Charles,

    Please comment on why the first ammendment of our US constitution did not overturn any of the state constitutions and their outright declaration of the Protestent, Christian religion:
    First, why don't you explain where you got the idea that the meaning of the Constitution is supposed to be to be obtained according to whether or not it overturned any provisions of any state constitution?

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  3. #352
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    Massachussetts 1780 Constitution:

    Art. II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession or sentiments, provided he doth not disturb the public peace or obstruct others in their religious worship.

    Art. III. As the happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend upon piety, religion, and morality, and as these cannot be generally diffcused through a community but by the institution of the public worship of God and of the public instructions in piety, religion, and morality: Therefore, To promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic or religious societies to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.
    The religious sections of the Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 were probably written by Satan himself. I don't care what the evil instrument says with regard to religion. Furthermore, it has no bearing whatsoever on the meaning of the U. S. Constitution.

    You will find that the prohibitions in the first amendment were only for the purpose of not establishing one of the Christian denominations over another
    The Amendment doesn't even contain the words, "only for the purpose of not establishing one of the Christian denominations over another." If your goal is to objectively and fairly ascertain the meaning of the Constitution, you should consider learning a little about the common law rules of construction as established at the time the Constitution was made. Right now, it's obvious that you're allowing your personal views to corrupt your interpretation of the Constitution.

  4. #353
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    swingers

    "their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-1.6

    Our next door neighbor's are swingers. They have parties now and then. Our 2nd story looks over their backyard, and pool)

    Every Sunday, they go to church. Nice people. One Saturday, their Webber broke down. They had guests, and needed to grill ASAP. I offered my grill, and my chef services. They did invite us over, but Mrs. Iceman had a headache, so we didn't attend. Mrs Iceman told me, I had a headache also. Darn.

    My question to all you Christians is: If their church finds out they are "swingers" they most likely be asked to leave the church. Why? I thought God loved everyone.

  5. #354
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post

    Massachussetts 1780 Constitution:

    Art. II. It is the right as well as the duty of all men in society, publicly and at stated seasons, to worship the Supreme Being, the great Creator and Preserver of the universe. And no subject shall be hurt, molested, or restrained, in his person, liberty, or estate, for worshipping God in the manner and season most agreeable to the dictates of his own conscience, or for his religious profession or sentiments, provided he doth not disturb the public peace or obstruct others in their religious worship.

    Art. III. As the happiness of a people and the good order and preservation of civil government essentially depend upon piety, religion, and morality, and as these cannot be generally diffcused through a community but by the institution of the public worship of God and of the public instructions in piety, religion, and morality: Therefore, To promote their happiness and to secure the good order and preservation of their government, the people of this commonwealth have a right to invest their legislature with power to authorize and require, and the legislature shall, from time to time, authorize and require, the several towns, parishes, precincts, and other bodies-politic or religious societies to make suitable provision, at their own expense, for the institution of the public worship of God and for the support and maintenance of public Protestant teachers of piety, religion, and morality in all cases where such provision shall not be made voluntarily.
    I would be interested to know why you're such an ardent advocate of the evil demonic principle of civil authority over the duty we owe to our Creator?

  6. Quote Originally Posted by Onlinedad View Post
    I was/am still trying to hold off on some of your previous questions/examples of proof, until I could here from some other religious backgrounds. You see, I am pretty skeptical of the only available proof of the existance of whatever, is one book. No matter how many parts of the one book that is thrown around it doesn't proove without a doubt that it is factually accurate. You see, from my perspective, I see the bible as another book written and edited by man. This same book has been interpreted and misinterpreted by everyone that has read it. The words within it have been used to justify many atrocities throughout history, up to and including the present.

    What I find offensive is that anyone would want to continue to associate themselves with such a group that has had such a history of sensless violence in the name of a higher power.

    Here, lets try this analogy: Lets say your on a bowling team. And to be on a bowling team you had to follow a set of written rules, that were set down 100's of years ago. Lets say one of those rules said something like, you must elliminate all non-bowlers, and that you could pretty much take anything you wanted from non-bowlers, like their property, their lands, their life... Now once you heard this rule wouldn't you throw up the ******** flag and question the mindset, and the authority of whoever wrote those rules? And, also wouldn't you tend to stay away from the craziness of that team?

    Well thats close to where I am at. As I grew up I was forced to go to a christian church, and study the christian interpritation of the bible. Unfortunately for the church though, I was born a free willed, and free thinking person. I saw through the hypocracy of the church and its teachings. So, yes I will question your faith, and I will try and get you to question it as well.

    here are some things to refference back to:

    But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. You shall annihilate them - the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites ... - just as the Lord your God has commanded." (Deut 20:16-17) Sounds like a directive to kill any non believers...

    "And at the seventh time, when the priests had blown the trumpets, Joshua said to the people, "Shout! For the Lord has given you the city [Jericho]. The city and all that is in it shall be devoted to the Lord for destruction. And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword." (Joshua 6:16-21)
    more acts of violence in the name of god, toward non-believers...

    "Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (I Samuel 15:2-3)

    "Every one that is found shall be thrust through; and every one that is joined unto them shall fall by the sword. Their children also shall be dashed to pieces before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-16) SWEET! Now god is saying to rape women too! All for not believing.

    "And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain." (Deuteronomy 2:34)

    "And we utterly destroyed them, as we did unto Sihon king of Hesbon, utterly destroying the men, women, and children, of every city. But all the cattle, and the spoil of the cities we took for a prey to ourselves." (Deuteronomy 3:6-7) Alright more justification for killing

    "And to the others he said in mine hearing, Go ye after him through the city, and smite: let not your eye spare, neither have ye pity: Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and little children, and woman: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. Then they began at the ancient men which were before the house." (Ezekiel 9:5-6) Are you still feeling good towards your history? God is commanding it, so better follow him, so this doesn't happen to me.

    "Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads. And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel." (Revelation 7:3-4)

    "And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power. And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads." (Revelation 9:3-4)

    "And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty [and] four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads." (Revelation 14:1)

    "...the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins." (Revelation 14:3-4)
    Wow, so only 144,000 virgin jews with a mark on their heads will survive? Do you realize that this means the death of everyone on earth but a few virgin Jews? And this includes the destruction of all Christians....sounds like you will suffer just like the rest of us.


    Christians haven't changed, the world has. Fundamentalist Christians still believe that without Jesus one will go to hell. They've just found that their opposition has grown too strong for them to freely commit physical assaults-most of the time. Christians are restrained by secular society. That, and no other reason, is why they behave themselves.
    Dear Onlinedad, if you had payed attention while in the Christian church, you would understand that the Jews applied the law when dealing with the other nations in exactly the same manner that they dealt with their enemies, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. Example:

    Judges 1:5 And they found Adonibezek in Bezek: and they fought against him, and they slew the Canaanites and the Perizzites.

    6 But Adonibezek fled; and they pursued after him, and caught him, and cut off his thumbs and his great toes.

    7 And Adonibezek said, Threescore and ten kings, having their thumbs and their great toes cut off, gathered [their meat] under my table: as I have done, so God hath requited me. And they brought him to Jerusalem, and there he died.


    Lastly, you continue to confuse forcing people under physical torment wrongly to that of a Godly Christian who preaches the gospel adn never compells by physical force. Of all people in the last two thousand years, beside the Jews, it is the born again Christian who has been most maligned. Your understanding of my faith is really pitiful my friend and your sense of humor is nothing more than blasphemy.

    You are free to choose as you have chosen, but there will be a time of judgement for all people ever created even if you wish to hide your head in the sand and pretend that is not so. That is a fact that none of us shall avoid. It is better to spend your time on earth redeeming the time than to falsely accuse God of being unrighteous. That is my opinion, you are certainly free to form your own opinions and act accordingly.

    As far as your interpretation of the 144000 virgins, you are once again in gross error. The 144000 witnesses are his faithful Jewish Martyrs that will spread the gospel during the tribulation so that a multitude will be saved. You really should have payed more attention while in the Christian church. You are quite ignorant of very basic Christian concepts. What were you doing all the time you were in church my friend? You certainly didn't take heed to any of the doctrines of Christianity since you have such a poor understanding.

    Nevertheless, good luck to you and the life you choose to follow.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Charles Cooper View Post
    I would be interested to know why you're such an ardent advocate of the evil demonic principle of civil authority over the duty we owe to our Creator?
    Charles, Charles, Charles, the people at the start of this nation understood that they had no King but King Jesus who is and was their authority over all matters. Yet you are grossly in error to not understand that the government was set up as a separate sphere of influence outside of the Christian freedom to worship over which God likewise is in full authority and power. Indeed, it is God that ordains the powers that be.

    There was no taxation of the church for this reason until Ronald Reagan signed into law January 1, 1984 and began the social security taxation of the church. Why was this institution not subject to taxation until 1984? Because the founders would not tax God. We had freedom of religion, not freedom from religion. Why don't you read the document a little more closely to understand that the government would not exert or coerce the church in any manner and the constitution separated government influence over the church but it likewise did not in the least diminish the influence of the church over the government. I am not sure why you don't understand the simple English before you with the 1780 document.

    Didn't you read that the people in office would only be those that professed Protestant Christianity? Since the 1789 US Federal Constitution in no manner overturned the state constitutions, why are you so blinded to understanding the founders intent. Once again, you pose several examples of thsoe that have opposed the gospel of Christ in America but are blind to the hundreds and thousands of documents and events that show that we are a Christian nation. You simply have blinders Charles and only see what you want to see while you are blinded to the myriad of proofs of the Christian nature of our nation until recent times.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by theicemanmpls View Post
    "their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished." (Isaiah 13:15-1.6

    Our next door neighbor's are swingers. They have parties now and then. Our 2nd story looks over their backyard, and pool)

    Every Sunday, they go to church. Nice people. One Saturday, their Webber broke down. They had guests, and needed to grill ASAP. I offered my grill, and my chef services. They did invite us over, but Mrs. Iceman had a headache, so we didn't attend. Mrs Iceman told me, I had a headache also. Darn.

    My question to all you Christians is: If their church finds out they are "swingers" they most likely be asked to leave the church. Why? I thought God loved everyone.
    Dear Iceman, is it easy to take Scripture out of context and then misunderstand and misrepresent what it is speaking about? Absolutely, you and Onlinedad seem to be able to do this without much thought at all. Thisj quote from Isaiah is a prophecy of how another nation shall overthrow Babylon in the same manner as Bablyon overthrew their enemies, an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.

    Shall you be righteous Iceman so that God is unrighteous? I wouldn't try that defense when you stand before Him, surely it will be a losing defense.

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Charles Cooper View Post
    The religious sections of the Massachusetts Constitution of 1780 were probably written by Satan himself. I don't care what the evil instrument says with regard to religion. Furthermore, it has no bearing whatsoever on the meaning of the U. S. Constitution.

    The Amendment doesn't even contain the words, "only for the purpose of not establishing one of the Christian denominations over another." If your goal is to objectively and fairly ascertain the meaning of the Constitution, you should consider learning a little about the common law rules of construction as established at the time the Constitution was made. Right now, it's obvious that you're allowing your personal views to corrupt your interpretation of the Constitution.
    Charles, since you have such a biased view of the founders, please show me any document where the first amendment overturned the Massachussetts constitution in 1789. You won't be able to find it because it doesn't exist. There was absolutely no discord between the 1780 Mass Constitution and the many other state constitutions with similar clauses and the first ammendment. The prohibition of establishment was exactly as I have stated, to prevent a state run religion like the Catholics in France and the Protestants with the church of England. Separation of church and state is NOT in the first ammendment, that is a revisionist historical attribute that does not stand up to the light of review. The wall mentioned by Jefferson was a one way wall of preventing the government influence over religion, not the other way around as it is currently posited today.

  10. #359
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    the people at the start of this nation understood that they had no King but King Jesus who is and was their authority over all matters.
    Nope. You're wrong. At the time the Constitution was adopted the prevailing view of the American people was that the people were the source of civil authority. That's why the Constitution was established in the name of the people, not in the name of Jesus.

    government was set up as a separate sphere of influence outside of the Christian freedom to worship over which God likewise is in full authority and power.
    If you mean God has absolute and exclusive authority over things purely spiritual and the civil magistrate has none whatsoever, then I agree. If you mean that just governments derive their legitimate authority from the people, not God, then I agree.

    it is God that ordains the powers that be.
    Civil governments derive their just authority from the people. The Declaration of Independence says so.

  11. #360
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    There was no taxation of the church for this reason until Ronald Reagan signed into law January 1, 1984 and began the social security taxation of the church. Why was this institution not subject to taxation until 1984? Because the founders would not tax God.
    I'm not well informed on the history of church taxation policy in the U. S. or the reasoning that supported the policies. Do you know of a good book on the subject?

    We had freedom of religion, not freedom from religion.
    I thought freedom of religion was freedom from any sort of government influence regarding religion, the duty we owe to our Creator.

    Why don't you read the document a little more closely to understand that the government would not exert or coerce the church in any manner and the constitution separated government influence over the church but it likewise did not in the least diminish the influence of the church over the government.
    Religion can't influence government, because the government has no authority over religion. For example. A religious society's position on the duty to believe in the existence of God can't possibly influence the government's position on that question, because the government has no authority over the issue. It can have no position on the matter.

    the people in office would only be those that professed Protestant Christianity?
    Nope. You're wrong. Non Protestants could hold an office with the U. S. Government.

    Since the 1789 US Federal Constitution in no manner overturned the state constitutions, why are you so blinded to understanding the founders intent.
    In 1789, there was well established law on how to ascertain the meaning of language in a Constitution. There was no rule of construction that said the meaning of words in a constitution are to be determined by whether or not the words overturned a provision in a state constitution.

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