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  1. #611
    these lands were filled with more christlike cultures long before it was invaded by christian crusaders
    gun control is being able to hit your target

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  3. #612
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    Things may be changing

    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Advil View Post
    This country was founded on principles of the Jewish and Christian faith. Anyone who says otherwise are foolish.
    Sadly many today do not follow these teachings and it is obvious that we are moving in the wrong direction.
    “Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master.” – Dwight D. Eisenhower

  4. #613
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    There is proof America was a Christian Nation

    There is proof America was a Christian Nation

    For All You doubting Thomas,

    At the birth of Our Nation, Congress appointed Chaplains for itself and the armed forces, they sponsored the publication of a Bible to be used in Schools and Churches (The first to be translated into English in the United States of American), they imposed Christian morality on the armed forces, (much different than the Obama administration is doing today) and they granted public lands to promote Christianity among the Indians.

    Congress was guided by "covenant theology," a Reformation doctrine especially dear to New England Puritans, which held that God bound himself in an agreement with a nation and its people.

    (Were did we ever get the idea that there was a separation of Church and State?)
    Could it be by the Liberal Judges that no longer rule on Constitutionality but by re-writing the Constitution to fit their own Liberal Agenda, or could it the ACLU lawsuits that never end.

    Congressional Fast Day Proclamation
    Congress proclaimed days of fasting and of thanksgiving annually throughout the Revolutionary War. This proclamation by Congress set May 17, 1776, as a "day of Humiliation, Fasting and Prayer" throughout the colonies. Congress urges its fellow citizens to "confess and bewail our manifold sins and transgressions, and by a sincere repentance and amendment of life, appease his [God's] righteous displeasure, and through the merits and mediation of Jesus Christ, obtain his pardon and forgiveness." Massachusetts ordered a "suitable Number" of these proclamations be printed so "that each of the religious Assemblies in this Colony, may be furnished with a Copy of the same" and added the motto "God Save This People" as a substitute for "God Save the King."

    Proposed Seal for the United States
    On July 4, 1776, Congress appointed Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson and John Adams "to bring in a device for a seal for the United States of America." Franklin's proposal adapted the biblical story of the parting of the Red Sea. Jefferson first recommended the "Children of Israel in the Wilderness, led by a Cloud by Day, and a Pillar of Fire by night. . . ." He then embraced Franklin's proposal and rewrote it. Jefferson's revision of Franklin's proposal was presented by the committee to Congress on August 20. Although not accepted these drafts reveal the religious temper of the Revolutionary period. Franklin and Jefferson were among the most theologically liberal of the Founders, yet they used biblical imagery for this important task.

    Congressional Thanksgiving Day Proclamation
    Congress set December 18, 1777, as a day of thanksgiving on which the American people "may express the grateful feelings of their hearts and consecrate themselves to the service of their divine benefactor" and on which they might "join the penitent confession of their manifold sins . . . that it may please God, through the merits of Jesus Christ, mercifully to forgive and blot them out of remembrance." Congress also recommends that Americans petition God "to prosper the means of religion for the promotion and enlargement of that kingdom which consisteth in righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost.'"


    Another Thanksgiving Day Proclamation
    Congress set November 28, 1782, as a day of thanksgiving on which Americans were "to testify their gratitude to God for his goodness, by a cheerful obedience to his laws, and by promoting, each in his station, and by his influence, the practice of true and undefiled religion, which is the great foundation of public prosperity and national happiness."

    The CONSTITUTION of the United States
    105th CONGRESS 1st SESSION/SENATE DOCUMENT 105-11
    The Declaration of Independence was the promise; the Constitution was the fulfillment. ``The sacred rights of mankind are not to be rummaged for, among old parchments, or musty records. They are written, as with a sun beam in the whole volume of human nature, by the hand of the divinity itself; and can never be erased or obscured by mortal power.'' Alexander Hamilton, 1775

    The Marxist Government and the Public School System has effectively rewrote our history as a Christian Nation, but the truth is still there no matter what the ACLU, Atheist and Obama tells You.
    “Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master.” – Dwight D. Eisenhower

  5. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by Debray View Post
    There is proof America was a Christian Nation

    For All You doubting Thomas
    Agreed, "WAS" a Christian Nation. But that's not the important issue today, what's in the past is in the past. The real tragedy IMO is that the remaining "remnant" of our society today professing to be Christian HAVEN"T READ THEIR BIBLE to even know if they really are Christians. 80% of "self proclaimed" Christians don't have the slightest idea of what "Born Again" means. 90% of "self proclaimed" Christians haven't the slightest understanding of scripture except for scripture revealing that Christ loves them. Christians say that Islam isn't a religion of peace, but the vast majority of Muslims proclaim that it is a religion of peace. Why is that? It's because the vast majority of Muslims haven't read their Koran to believe the truth of the Koran. The same can be said about the vast majority of "self proclaimed" Christians.Therefor, that vast majority "self proclaimed" Christians having not read the Bible to know the truth, judging the vast majority of Muslims for not reading the Koran to know the truth are HYPOCRITES. Even Satan believes "IN" God, but that doesn't make Satan a Christian. Satan doesn't "BELIEVE" God, that's a BIG difference. That same BIG difference is the curse of the vast majority of "self proclaimed" Christians in America today.

    To be a Christian one must be "Born Again", if that one doesn't believe that then that one has determined that Christ is either a LIAR, a DECEIVER, or BOTH. Why? Because Christ said one must be "BORN AGAIN" in order to enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyone claiming to have read the Bible knows this to be the truth, period. Anyone who claims to be a "Born Again' Christian and says that they have read the Bible, "knows" that Christ said in three of the gospels that we are living in the Last Generation. Why then is it that so many who profess to be "Bible Believing" Christians keep on talking about what must be done to protect future generations of America? Christ made it crystal clear, life as we have known it will end with this present generation. I understand the foolish wisdom of the secular crowd to continue in their mindless rhetoric of what must be done to protect the future generations of Americans. Why? Because the Bible says the "wisdom of man is foolishness to God". And, I'm not saying to give up anything, go ahead and vote if you feel it will make a difference for the "TIME WE HAVE LEFT". However, if you're a Bible "BELIEVING" Christian then stop being a "doubting Thomas", stop being deceived, and stop the mindless rhetoric about "FUTURE GENERATIONS" and start glorifying the truth of God in you're witness.
    The Most Important Thing That You Can Do In This Life, Is To Determine "WHERE" You Will "LIVE" In The Next Life.

  6. #615
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    ^^^Damn it is a shame you can't "Like" more than once. ^^^

    So what is "born again"? Nicodemus didn't understand during his conversation with Jesus, and neither does anyone else who hasn't reached that point as a Christian. I think that the major hurdle to cross is the realization what it means that Jesus Christ died for you. It isn't a crucifix, a painting, singing "Jesus Loves Me" in Sunday School, or a movie about his last day on Earth. It is about someone suffering and dying FOR YOU!!! Until that sinks in....

    So what does that mean? Jesus' message is pretty simple. To believe in and love God and love one another. (Believe, be good and do good) He said: "Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's" (obey man's law which includes paying taxes) There are some other details, but those are the basics.

    Be aware that "Born again" is a recent adjective added to "Christian", formerly understood but not needed to be mentioned. I have mixed feelings on the addition.

    Part of me kind of thinks that it fits this day and time where people live two entire lifespans of 1st Century AD Middle Eastern people, and where the laws of the Jews are pretty much the laws of the world today. (1AD Middle East was largely a lawless area) I was a Christian, or at least believed and considered myself a Christian since I was old enough to believe and consider anything. The "born again" part is a fairly recent development, and I'm still far from where I'd like to be. I guess the best way I can put it is, when your conscious tells you that taking small items from work for your own personal use is stealing, when you realize that driving 71mph is speeding, when you realize that you are never in so big of a hurry that you can't hold the door for someone else that you don't know, when the myriad "wrong" things you always thought were trivial actually in your mind become "wrong", I think that you are well on the road to being "born again". Those examples are far from exclusive, just my feeble attempt to help someone understand my beliefs on it.

    But I guess the main reason it was added is that there are Christians that feel it isn't necessary to be born again, in other words people who believe but don't want to take the final leap of Faith. If you are one of those, go back and read Ringo's above post....he is talking to you.

    When was the last time you did a good thing for someone you didn't know? I'm not talking about throwing a quarter in a Salvation Army bucket or to some other charity outside of Walmart. I'm talking about physically going out of your way to do something for someone knowing that they might not even appreciate it or thank you for it. I'm not talking about your spouse either.

    Truly believing in and loving God is a tall order. Of course we are human and will always be expected to fall short, but if you truly believe, if you truly love God, you will always try your best to always do the right thing.

    If I have to define "good" and "the right thing", you aren't close enough to being there to understand. If you are interested, go back to your Bible, read stories about the lives of those canonized into Sainthood, and lay off the TV and movies for a while. Actually, it is ok to watch TV, just make it a point NOT to act like 95% of the people you see on it. If you aren't interested, you will never understand, and that is ok. You will remain in my prayers.

    And yes, "What about the Crusades?", "What about xxx?" (fill in with whatever act not considered to be good performed in the name of God) Anyone can do anything in the name of anyone without their blessing. Again, if you don't understand, you're not there yet. The Crusades was a powerplay by some popes and attempted land grabs by their kings. Over a couple of centuries, it got pretty ugly. Done in the name of God, they definitely weren't Godly.

    As far as the original question, America was founded by Christians asking for God's blessings for a country where Christians could worship the one living God as they wished. If you believe any other thing, quite simply, you are lying to yourself.
    "I don't think that a society that encourages over a million abortions a year....a society that kills out of convenience, i.e., Jack Kevorkian, can not have consequences." --Rush Limbaugh

  7. #616
    fstroupe: Old son, you have hit the nail on the head with your definition of becoming a Christian. Sounds like you took the road many of us did in believing before but not quite getting "born again" until later in life. Fortunately, God gave us the time to come to our senses before it was too late. He also gave wisdom to the founding fathers of this country and, contrary to the belief of many, God played a major role in the foundation of the country. Many will say no. To those, I would recommend the reading of the book, Christianity and the Constitution: The Faith of Our Founding Fathers by John Eidsmoe. The book gives clear evidence of God's hand in our founding and directing of our lives. Regardless of facts, there will be those who will deny God but that will be their problem. As long as I have breath, I will continue to espouse my belief in God and the sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our salvation. For those who don't believe, there is no doubt in my mind that you will one day believe. That day will be when you stand in front of Jesus Christ and he asks, "What have you done with your life to show me?"

  8. #617
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    Oldgrunt, I spent at least 40 years not really understanding "born again". I wasn't running from anything, not really trying to fool myself, I really just didn't understand. To be honest I was jealous of people who had "white light experiences" because they actually had an instance that they could point to. Having been a "church baby" (term used by a former pastor of mine), growing up in the church with at least half of my earliest memories being in church, I was beginning to believe that maybe "born again" was something only for converted nonbelievers.

    I have always tried to do the "right thing". I very seldom got into trouble as a kid, because as often as not I actually listened to that little internal voice that we all have. Probably the statement made of me that I am most proud of, on an NCOER while I was in the army, a 1LT that I really respected said: "SSG Stroupe will do what is right even to his own detriment."

    The Lord has done a lot of moving in my life in the last couple of months. Part of it came from right here at this forum, with my reading and thinking about posts from yourself, Ringo, Blues, and others. Part from beginning to understand my last pastor's messages, a man with a deeper understanding of Paul than anyone I have ever encountered. Part from a couple of long conversations with my current pastor, the first one probably started the whole ball rolling. Part from spending more time reading the Bible than I have for most of my adult life. Part from reading it in a different translation, the NRSV, a re-translation of the original Greek, Hebrew, and Sumerian, and written into mostly today's American English.

    I have decided to make some real changes in my life, and during the time leading up to those decisions, The Lord laid a lot of wisdom on me, mostly through others, but I have come out of it with a new understanding of a lot of things. Anyway, during that time I actually realized that I had been reborn, though it took me over half of my life to get there. I can actually point out the day that it happened, at work a couple of years ago, which maybe sounds stupid but being able to lay a finger on the instance makes it seem more real to me.
    "I don't think that a society that encourages over a million abortions a year....a society that kills out of convenience, i.e., Jack Kevorkian, can not have consequences." --Rush Limbaugh

  9. #618
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    I use my phone tethered to my 'puter for an internet connection while I'm at work. Been having trouble with the connection ever since I returned to work from a medical leave a couple of weeks ago, so I do most of my reading on my phone and only hook up the tether if I need to post. Well, I needed to post after reading the last few posts in succession, and just say thanks to Ringo, Oldgrunt and fstroupe. I read Ringo's post yesterday and tried to reply to it, but the tether connection broke down as it has been doing whenever I'm on for more than a few minutes. If I would've replied, it would've been almost exactly what fstroupe just said in his last two posts. "Getting it" is a beautiful thing. I am not naturally a trusting person. That's why it took 50+ years for me to even understand the words typed in here in the last three posts. That's why I didn't surrender to God's Word, even though I saw the comfort and peace such surrender brought others, and even though I envied their having it. Learning to accept and trust the Word has brought more light and joy in my life than my own words could ever express.

    Anyway, thanks y'all. This thread has gone through many cycles over the last few months. It's back to being an inspiration and a place for reflective fellowship. Gotta git before my tether breaks down again and I lose this opportunity to share my gratitude with you.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  10. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by eagleeyes View Post
    these lands were filled with more christlike cultures long before it was invaded by christian crusaders
    First this is not meant to attack. I sometimes find it hard to say what i feel needs to be said without offending.
    Many who came to the Americans came with a pure motive, to escape religious persecution and share the love of Christ with those they came in contact with. Many tribes lived at peace with them, many were not as peaceful and those who came here did need to fight.
    Likewise many did come here claiming the name of Christ but were bent on conquest. These people were no more Christian than those they came to conquer.
    The "Christ like" quality you speak of that some of the indigenous tribes had were just peaceful, but without Christ you cannot be "Christ like"
    All of us have become like one who is unclean, 6 and all our righteous acts are like filthy rags; we all shrivel up like a leaf, and like the wind our sins sweep us away. Isaiah 64:6 (NIV)
    I pray that you will seek out true Christ like people and take the wisdom they have to heart.
    Also take the time to read the last few post from
    Debray, Ringo, Fstroupe, Oldgrunt, Blue Stringer, there is a lot of wisdom there.

  11. #620
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    Quote Originally Posted by Duke of Advil View Post
    First this is not meant to attack. I sometimes find it hard to say what i feel needs to be said without offending.
    Many who came to the Americans came with a pure motive, to escape religious persecution and share the love of Christ with those they came in contact with. Many tribes lived at peace with them, many were not as peaceful and those who came here did need to fight.
    Likewise many did come here claiming the name of Christ but were bent on conquest. These people were no more Christian than those they came to conquer.



    Duke of Advil as you said, “Many who came to the Americans came with a pure motive, to escape religious persecution and share the love of Christ”.

    In fact, the Pilgrims were members of a group of people called Separatists. These people had different beliefs than the rest of the English people. In 1606, they formed their own church in a small village called Scrooby.
    Because at this time, the Church of England was the same as the Government of England. In other words, King James I was the head of both the country and the church. Not belonging to the church meant not obeying the king. This was treason.

    So the Pilgrims left England, in search of a safe place to practice their religion. They chose to go to Holland and found a home in Leiden. For 12 years, they worshipped under their pastor, John Robinson.

    But the Pilgrims were also poor. Many of them were forced to work difficult jobs all day long, for little money. They had found religious peace in Holland, but they were making barely enough money to survive.

    They finally decided to sail to North America. They didn’t want to join the Jamestown colony, founded in 1607, because they feared that the English people there would treat them badly because of their religious beliefs. So the Pilgrims settled on the northern part of the Virginia Territory, at the mouth of the Hudson River.

    The Pilgrims bought a small ship called the Speedwell and sailed back to England. They stayed long enough to get more colonists and a larger ship, the Mayflower. They set sail from Southampton on August 5, 1620.


    The Speedwell wasn’t in shape to make the journey, and the Pilgrims returned to Plymouth, England. They crowded all 102 people onboard the Mayflower and set sail again, on September 16.

    This time, they kept going.


    The ocean crossing was long and difficult. Many of the Pilgrims wondered if they would ever see land. Two people died, and one baby was born. On November 9, they saw land.
    Two days later, they dropped anchor at Cape Cod, which is now in Massachusetts. An advance party soon went ashore and looked for food and shelter, while most of the people stayed aboard the Mayflower. A group of Pilgrims, led by William Bradford, signed the Mayflower Compact, which said that they agreed to govern themselves and not take orders from other people.
    More scouting of the new land followed, and the entire group finally went ashore and began to build a settlement. It was December 23, and the place was Plymouth.
    The first winter was very hard. More than 40 people died. The rest of the Pilgrims made it through the winter. In the spring, they began to plant food and continued to explore their new home.
    On March 16, Samoset and another Native American entered the Plymouth settlement and said, in English, “Welcome, Englishmen.” The Pilgrims were amazed. Samoset explained that he had learned their language from English fishermen who had fished there in the winter. The two peoples exchanged greetings and ideas. They parted as friends.
    A few days later, Samoset returned with Squanto, another Native American leader. The Pilgrims welcomed him, too. Soon, Massasoit, the leader of the large tribe the Wampanoag, visited Plymouth. The two peoples signed a peace treaty that would last 50 years.

    The Native Americans had taught the Pilgrims how to plant wheat, barley, Indian corn, and peas. Soon, the settlement was growing lots of food. Later that year, in the fall, the Pilgrims celebrated the harvest. They invited their Native American friends to join them. This has become known as the first Thanksgiving.
    The Plymouth colony thrived. More people were born, and more people arrived from Europe. Soon, other colonies sprung up. It wouldn’t be long before English colonies filled the entire Eastern coast of North America.
    The Pilgrims, in seeking freedom from religious punishment and economic hardship, had found in the New World new friends and a new way of life.

    As I said the first English language Bible to be printed in America by Robert Aitken in 1782 was a King James Version.

    Robert Aitkens’s 1782 Bible was also the only Bible ever authorized by the United States Congress.

    The very first Bible printed in America was done in the native Algonquin Indian Language by John Eliot in 1663.

    And still many argue that America isn’t a Christian Nation, and would rather Worship the King and the way of life the Pilgrams escaped.
    “Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master.” – Dwight D. Eisenhower

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