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Thread: America is a Christian Nation

  1. #791
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgrunt View Post
    SR9: I hesitated in responding to your post but thought I might explain a thing or two. I don't know if you know nosreme's background but I can assure he is a rational man, well educated and seasoned by years of experience. I don't know the intricacies of his life but am familiar with his professional life as a somewhat kindred spirit. He says he is a free-thinker and, as so many do, has skipped over religious dogma. Some let their education get in their way, others just go a different way. Most likely, he was a good father and husband to his family and, unknowingly or not, conducted himself in a manner consistent with the tenets of the Bible. Religion just fell by the wayside for him but not necessarily to the point of him being an irrational person. For a person to put up an argument against religion, knowledge of the subject is imperative in order to articulate perceived wrongs. I believe he knows the way to salvation as prescribed by Jesus but, for one reason or another, he has yet to accept it. I have never met the man yet I have high hopes for him and his journey to the Lord. He will one day think very seriously about his relationship with the Lord, especially in light of advancing age when one realizes that this life is nearly over and there may be some validity to religious claims. In other words, the FINAL EXAM! I try not to give up on people and am deeply concerned with how some on here mock God as the "Big Sky Daddy" and other names you couldn't pay me to use. The Bible says "...fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom...." I must be getting much more wise in my old age because I definitely fear the wrath of God! I am glad you take an interest in these discussions and hope you will continue with us and just maybe we can lead the lost to the Shepherd!
    You have a lot more patience with with non-believers than I do. I do feel sorry for these people but I will only tell them they are wrong and one day they will know it! Like SR9, I know I can not drag them kicking and screaming to the Alter. They have to do that themselves.

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  3. #792
    Quote Originally Posted by vernsimpson View Post
    You have a lot more patience with with non-believers than I do. I do feel sorry for these people but I will only tell them they are wrong and one day they will know it! Like SR9, I know I can not drag them kicking and screaming to the Alter. They have to do that themselves.
    Good, then we have to listen to less of the nonsense of sky daddies and the other trappings of the oldest urban legend ever.

    I would tell you that 'one day' (code for you kicked the bucket), you won't know you were wrong, for you will just cease to exist, just like the mosquito you swatted earlier today.

    And why would you drag someone to an alter, it is just some non-functional furniture that is part of the trappings of your urban legend. Isn't it really for the 'show' and yet doesn't your bible tell you that your chats with sky daddy should be private and not paraded out in the attempt to impress others.
    “Religion is an insult to human dignity. Without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things.
    But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” ― Steven Weinberg

  4. #793
    Quote Originally Posted by vernsimpson View Post
    You have a lot more patience with with non-believers than I do. I do feel sorry for these people but I will only tell them they are wrong and one day they will know it! Like SR9, I know I can not drag them kicking and screaming to the Alter. They have to do that themselves.
    Vern: We have to have patience when dealing with others. If you have noticed, it is the unbelievers who are the rudest in their comments on here and insulting to the Nth degree. If we respond to them in kind, we accomplish nothing. On the contrary, we have only incited them to be more profane. They don't seem to realize that every word they use against God will come back to haunt them at their judgement. It doesn't cost me a thing to use a little patience knowing that by doing so, I may cause someone to stop and think about what they are doing to themselves. As one person on here likes to continually talk about a loving God deliberately sending someone to hell for their sins, he hasn't stopped to think that God hasn't sentenced him to hell. He has chosen hell all by himself by not accepting Jesus as his Savior. He seems to be totally unaware that Jesus died on the cross to atone for his sins and all the others in this world. He can deny Jesus if he wants, that is because he was granted free will by God. Consequently, he dictates his own outcome, reward or punishment. The concept of salvation is such a simple thing. John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 are two passages which give us our promise of salvation but they are too profound in their simplicity for some to accept. So....to get across to some people, patience bears more fruit than does a shouting match and I just keep plugging away. God bless and let's keep plugging away!

  5. #794
    Quote Originally Posted by nosreme View Post
    I saved myself when I abandoned religion.
    We'll see. We'll see, won't we?

  6. #795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    Matthew 7:15-20 New King James Version (NKJV)
    You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.
    I guess this was more or less offered to counter my post right above it. If not, no biggie, but as it might relate to the discussion(s) between one patient and concerned for others' souls poster and one (or more) of the "less receptive" shall we say, members of the forum, I think the above is a bit selective and really doesn't apply here standing by itself.

    Directly following those verses comes this:

    I Never Knew You

    21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’
    It is Jesus' place to judge both individuals' "fruit" and our adherence to His law. It is not mine or Oldgrunt's, and if he believes he is following Jesus' law by engaging non-believers, it is no believer's place to criticize him for it. That was my only point.

    The final passage of those verses ties both commands together:

    Build on the Rock

    24 “Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
    26 “But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27 and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall.”
    28 And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29 for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.
    If non-believers' houses be built on sand, Jesus gives them the authority to decide for themselves if such a foundation is substantial enough to build their lives upon. Oldgrunt is simply shoring up his foundation. We may believe we can perceive the "fruit" of posters on an internet forum, but having been accused by more than one member (or past members) here of bearing rotten fruit (or some other Biblical metaphor) without those members knowing a single thing about what I actually do in my life, I reject the notion that this venue is an appropriate one from which to judge "trees" that we've never seen, known, seen the contributions to people they may have made, whatever, it's not our place. Their trees have not been, "...cut down and thrown into the fire" yet, and therefore, it is not our time to "know" their fruit simply by projecting our own biases, perceived transgressions and belief onto disembodied, anonymous words on an internet forum.

    I believe Matthew 7:1-14 might have some bearing on this discussion as well. When I look at the totality of Matt 7, I see it talking to me as an individual about not judging others more so than as instruction on how, or when, to judge others.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  7. #796
    I try not to judge others and sometimes say things when I should have kept my mouth shut, but I try to do what is right. When I try to respond to someone concerning the Lord, there is one passage of scripture that comes to mind, Isaiah 55:10-11, "For as the rain comes down, and the snow from heaven, And do not return there, But water the earth And make it bring forth and bud, That it may give seed to the sower And bread to the eater. So shall My word be that goes forth from My mouth. It shall not return to me void, But it shall accomplish what I please, And it shall prosper in the thing for which I sent it." I feel that it is incumbent upon me to help put the word out there and the Lord will take it from there. I can't judge anyone else but, spreading the word can accomplish what I couldn't do on a personal level. I do enjoy these discussions and believe they will bear fruit, whether we know it or not. And, as a fringe benefit, "Let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save a soul from death and cover a multitude of sins." James 5:20.

  8. #797
    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgrunt View Post
    Vern: We have to have patience when dealing with others. If you have noticed, it is the unbelievers who are the rudest in their comments on here and insulting to the Nth degree. If we respond to them in kind, we accomplish nothing. On the contrary, we have only incited them to be more profane. They don't seem to realize that every word they use against God will come back to haunt them at their judgement. It doesn't cost me a thing to use a little patience knowing that by doing so, I may cause someone to stop and think about what they are doing to themselves. As one person on here likes to continually talk about a loving God deliberately sending someone to hell for their sins, he hasn't stopped to think that God hasn't sentenced him to hell. He has chosen hell all by himself by not accepting Jesus as his Savior. He seems to be totally unaware that Jesus died on the cross to atone for his sins and all the others in this world. He can deny Jesus if he wants, that is because he was granted free will by God. Consequently, he dictates his own outcome, reward or punishment. The concept of salvation is such a simple thing. John 3:16 and Acts 16:31 are two passages which give us our promise of salvation but they are too profound in their simplicity for some to accept. So....to get across to some people, patience bears more fruit than does a shouting match and I just keep plugging away. God bless and let's keep plugging away!
    I do agree with everything you say. I have always been unable to quote chapter and verse to anyone. I do not fight or even incite them. As I said I just tell them that I believe they are wrong and walk away.

    As I have said on before what my former Pastor and close personal friend said, "Everyone in Hell is a TRUE believer. It is just to late for them!" I have found that to be the best argument for me to say to them.

  9. #798
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    Before I say anything else I want to recommend https://www.blueletterbible.org/ as an excellent resource if you want to seriously study your bible. The second thing I want to say is if you really want to gain an understanding of what Scripture is saying it's a good idea to get a copy of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible it contains every word in the KJV, the base Hebrew, Chaldee, or Greek that that word was translated from and a definition of that word in the original language.


    For example Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. the word translated judge and judged if from the Greek root Krino it means to conclude, condemn or damn.

    A better English translation might be Condemn not that ye be not condemned.



    So what that is saying is it's not our place to pass final judgment on anyone. What it's not saying is we're not to practice any kind of discernment or if it is saying that then we have an apparent contradiction with rest of Scripture which very clearly states that we are to practice discernment and further that if a person who claims to be a fellow believer but continues in gross deliberate sin we are to disassociate ourselves with him.


    1st Corinthians 5:11 But I now have written unto you not to keep company with any man who is called a brother if he is a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner. With such a one you are not even to eat.

    It is impossible to be obedient to that Scripture without making a judgment call on the other person's fruit. But what the Bible doesn't say is that we're supposed to call that person out on their behavior (I'm guilty) it says not to keep company with them. the only time the Bible ever tells me to call someone out is if they are preaching false doctrine (you must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved) or when they have sinned directly against me.


    The Bible doesn't state this directly but it's my opinion that in Matthew 18 15-17 the reason Scripture tells you to take it before 2 or 3 other believers is so they can backstop you and tell you if you really don't have a case.


    But going back to my main point we are supposed to exercise some discernment, we are supposed to be looking at each others fruit and making determinations on who we associate with and who we don't based on those discernments. But we're not supposed to condemn the person or hold ourselves to be somehow above them.


    Case in point if you tell me you love Jesus but you never seem to find time to get in His Word or meet with His People or (more importantly) those who are not His people I may not question your Salvation but I will certainly question your priorities ( IOW I'm going to examine your fruit)
    In an emergency individuals do not rise to the occasion, they fall to the level of their MASTERED training
    Barrett Tillman

  10. #799
    Eidolon: Thanks for the website reference. I have never heard of it before but will visit it. I have been a reader of Strong's references for years and many other books as well as different versions of the Bible. We all seem to have a working relationship with the Bible and try to impart what we can to others. As you can see, some are receptive but others, not so much. We do what we can and sincerely hope we do some good.

  11. #800
    Quote Originally Posted by Eidolon View Post
    Before I say anything else I want to recommend https://www.blueletterbible.org/ as an excellent resource if you want to seriously study your bible. The second thing I want to say is if you really want to gain an understanding of what Scripture is saying it's a good idea to get a copy of Strong's Exhaustive Concordance Of The Bible it contains every word in the KJV, the base Hebrew, Chaldee, or Greek that that word was translated from and a definition of that word in the original language.


    For example Matthew 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged. the word translated judge and judged if from the Greek root Krino it means to conclude, condemn or damn.

    A better English translation might be Condemn not that ye be not condemned.



    So what that is saying is it's not our place to pass final judgment on anyone. What it's not saying is we're not to practice any kind of discernment or if it is saying that then we have an apparent contradiction with rest of Scripture which very clearly states that we are to practice discernment and further that if a person who claims to be a fellow believer but continues in gross deliberate sin we are to disassociate ourselves with him.





    It is impossible to be obedient to that Scripture without making a judgment call on the other person's fruit. But what the Bible doesn't say is that we're supposed to call that person out on their behavior (I'm guilty) it says not to keep company with them. the only time the Bible ever tells me to call someone out is if they are preaching false doctrine (you must be circumcised and keep the law of Moses in order to be saved) or when they have sinned directly against me.


    The Bible doesn't state this directly but it's my opinion that in Matthew 18 15-17 the reason Scripture tells you to take it before 2 or 3 other believers is so they can backstop you and tell you if you really don't have a case.


    But going back to my main point we are supposed to exercise some discernment, we are supposed to be looking at each others fruit and making determinations on who we associate with and who we don't based on those discernments. But we're not supposed to condemn the person or hold ourselves to be somehow above them.


    Case in point if you tell me you love Jesus but you never seem to find time to get in His Word or meet with His People or (more importantly) those who are not His people I may not question your Salvation but I will certainly question your priorities ( IOW I'm going to examine your fruit)
    I do not judge anyone. I will tell anyone when I believe they are wrong! I also will not preach to anyone. What I try to do on any subject is leave them with something to ponder later when they think about our conversation. Each person must make the decision themselves. The only thing I can do is to try to show them where the door is, they must go through it themselves. IF they go through the door GREAT but if they choose not to I will feel sad.

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