67YR old lady shot and killed by Yuba City PD - Page 2
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Thread: 67YR old lady shot and killed by Yuba City PD

  1. #11
    OH COME ONE.. AM I the only one that sees the real problem here???
    I don't blame the cops, Hey they got a call, they were investigating. According to the story she had the shotgun pointed at the officers and advanced on them, They had the right to shoot her...

    BUT THAT IS NOT THE PROBLEM!!!
    What was the problem you ask??

    WHAT THE HELL WAS A CENSUS WORKER DOING THERE AT 9PM????

    Come on..

    What hours are Census Workers allowed to come to your door??
    IF they show up at 3am, am I supposed to greet them warmly and ask them if they want some fresh backed cookies???
    At the latest, I would say sunset. but prefer 7 or 7:30pm
    Sunset was about 8:15 PM.. They are there ~45 minutes after that..

    IF the census taker did not show up at an unreasonable hour, then this incident would have NEVER happened!!!

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by ecocks View Post
    Menacing and/or brandishing is a crime in several states.

    Of course, answering a knock on your door with a handgun is not a crime but that is not what the story states happened to get the woman shot.

    The man answered the door with a handgun when police arrived and while talking with him, the woman approached with a shotgun pointed at them, then failed to respond to orders to drop her weapon. Assuming (always a potential mistake) the story as related is true, there is no trespass involved here so far.

    And yes, the census worker is a government employee, no different than a postal worker, meter reader, etc. going about their lawful business. Citizens are required to give the basic information regarding the number of people living at the address. All legal, no conspiracy. The police would have been called about the threat of a firearm, not the failure to answer Census questions.

    At worst, it is possible that the census worker over-reacted at the presence of the sidearm but the report legitimately brought out the police who were investigating.

    People do stuppid things and often have to pay a price.
    You can never tell from a news paper account what really happened, but according to the article, it says that they pointed the gun at the census worker. That could potentially be a felony, assault with a deadly weapon in the hands of some prosecutors.

    Interestingly, I had a census worker come to our door a couple of weeks ago. I never received the census. He was an elderly gentleman, but a quite tall and some what imposing figure. We got talking and he had been assaulted with a firearm that very day at another house. He saw the man reach into his trousers to pull something out. He reacted, and took the gun away from the man and then held him waiting for the police to come. The man with the gun was charged with assault with a deadly weapon. The census worker then confided in me when I asked if he had police training that he was an ex pro football player. Still quite the tough guy at 76 if I remember right.

    If you don't want the census workers, then post it properly on your property and call the police if someone violates your privacy, but you have no right to place another person in harms way simply for doing their job who is not threatening you. We are a land of laws, or we are supposed to be and that includes allowing census workers to do their job. If you don't like some of the questions, don't answer, but you will have a nice little fine to pay. I didn't feel like coughing up $5000 so I answered them all. There are some issues to fight and fall on your sword and others you just let go.

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    If you don't like some of the questions, don't answer, but you will have a nice little fine to pay. I didn't feel like coughing up $5000 so I answered them all. There are some issues to fight and fall on your sword and others you just let go.
    I intend to apply Malicious compliance if a census worker comes a knocking..

    I intend to do this by utilizing the "Privacy Act of 1974 (Public Law 93-579) which empowers citizens to require full, written disclosure from a government official who seeks information.
    I plan to utilize the a Public Servant Questionnaire when they come knocking.

    Obtain a Questionnaire and more info at this website..

    I will not refuse to answer the questions, only require that the census taker provide disclosure as a precondition to answering.

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

  5. Quote Originally Posted by HootmonSccy View Post
    I intend to apply Malicious compliance if a census worker comes a knocking..

    I intend to do this by utilizing the "Privacy Act of 1974 (Public Law 93-579) which empowers citizens to require full, written disclosure from a government official who seeks information.
    I plan to utilize the a Public Servant Questionnaire when they come knocking.

    Obtain a Questionnaire and more info at this website..

    I will not refuse to answer the questions, only require that the census taker provide disclosure as a precondition to answering.
    I don't have the kind of money a lawyer would cost to try and enforce such a ruling. I have seen several people try to go up against the FEDS, few have succeeded. Once again, pick your battles carefully. For me the census wasn't a to die for issue as it appears to have been for this couple. Not sure what these folks were really thinking at the time of the incident. Quite a sad but preventable outcome. When a cop tells you not to point a weapon at them, you may want to consider the consequences. Pointing a gun at another person is a very aggressive action that generates legal self defense clearance for use of deadly force. Many people may answer the door with a side arm out of sight, but how many people actually point the weapon at someone? Your property or not, it is a very hostile action especially knowing the consequences of an accidental discharge in such a situation. I just don't understand what these folks thought they were accomplishing in both episodes.

  6. #15
    Join Date
    Dec 2009
    Location
    Minnesota
    Posts
    1,429
    I wonder if they covered the public servent questionare in census taker school? I hope they just check the box marked, refer to supervisor, and move on. No reason to go door to door, and argue with folks trying to make a point.

    I filled out the form. It is harmless. Besides, why attract attention? What if I had a meth lab, or was growing weed upstairs? What if I didn't want more gov-ment workers knocking? The other thing is, one can always lie on the form. As long as all the blanks are filled out, the computer will accept the form, and leave you alone for another few years. A freind of mine, filled out the form, and showed 11 people with different hispanic sir names living at his address.

    In Kalifornia only two groups are supposed to have firearms. The cops, and the gang bangers.
    If you are waving a gun around, you are a gangbanger, and will be shot. Don't matter if you a 67 old woman.
    If you are armed, and you see uniformed police officers, with police cars approaching your door, it is best if your hands are not near a firearm. In Kalifornia, this is even more true. Yuba city was once known as the meth capital of northern calif. No wonder the cops are jumpy.
    Last edited by theicemanmpls; 05-22-2010 at 03:13 AM. Reason: clarification

  7. #16
    Here in orlando, they would almost be met the same way. We have had may "uniformed" officers, UPS, FEDEX, cable, utilities workers, etc. breaking in, tying folks up and in the best case, just robbing them. The door doesn't get opened after 8:00 pm at the latest, Period. No matter who is there.

  8. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    I don't have the kind of money a lawyer would cost to try and enforce such a ruling. I have seen several people try to go up against the FEDS, few have succeeded. Once again, pick your battles carefully. For me the census wasn't a to die for issue as it appears to have been for this couple. Not sure what these folks were really thinking at the time of the incident. Quite a sad but preventable outcome. When a cop tells you not to point a weapon at them, you may want to consider the consequences. Pointing a gun at another person is a very aggressive action that generates legal self defense clearance for use of deadly force. Many people may answer the door with a side arm out of sight, but how many people actually point the weapon at someone? Your property or not, it is a very hostile action especially knowing the consequences of an accidental discharge in such a situation. I just don't understand what these folks thought they were accomplishing in both episodes.
    Not to derail the actual subject, but I'm just hoping the Census taker has no idea what to do and goes away or refers to a supervisor.. I think I filled in just enough of the survey that they won't bother me, but if they do, I will answer their question when they answer mine. Theirs is backed by law and so are mine.

    Gulf Coast, Floriduh
    Sccy is the limit

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    Interestingly, I had a census worker come to our door a couple of weeks ago. I never received the census. He was an elderly gentleman, but a quite tall and some what imposing figure
    We had a census worker come here as well. I got the census in the mail, but set it aside and forgot about it. I meant to fill it out, but it just wasn't a priority for me. I got a notice on the gate that the census worker had been by. About a week later he was posting another notice on the gate as I was leaving for work.

    I'd say the guy was probably in his early 70's, maybe late 60's. It was about 11am. The property here is a bit complex, but after talking to me and another resident, he thanked us for our time and went on his way.

    He skipped over half the questions from the paper census and even mentioned the courtesy we gave him as a high point of his day. All being said and done, it was no big deal and even my retired Marine neighbor was quite happy to take a moment to answer the census worker.

  10. #19
    Join Date
    Mar 2009
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    993
    I did the same thing to the Census forms (both of them, they wasted postage to send a second) that I did to the Census forms 10 years ago. I gave only what the Constitutionally warranted purposes require. Number of people living at this address and our names as proof. That's it. No income, no religious affiliation, no party affiliation, no employer info, no ages, no sexes (though that might or might not be imputed by the names), no nothing else.

    If they want to take those two separate forms filled out identicly both times to indicate that a census taker should be sent to my home to confront me in meat space, they're more than welcome to waste their time. I'll now use that form Hootmon linked in if they do. I just don't expect them to. They have the pertinent answers the Census actually needs.

    And further, yes, 9:00 at night is too damn late to be dealing with statist privacy invasion. The guy should have just told the census taker this, informed her that if she didn't leave his property immediate, he would call the police for the trespasser who was there after the hours the Census takers were permitted to operate, and then promptly closed the door in the Census taker's face. If she so much as knocked, I'd be at the phone dialing 911.

    I would not point a gun at an unwanted caller at my door unless they were an imminent threat. I might draw my side arm and point it at the floor at my side, but not at the person. I had a vagrant at my door one cold winter's eve who thought it was her right to come in, get warm, and use my phone. She wreaked of booze and cigarettes. My entire home is a no-smoking area. When I told her no, she didn't go away, but tried to negotiate her way inside. When that failed, she put one foot inside, at which point, I assumed the weaver stance and called inside, "Mom, call the police." That finally put enough fear in the vagrant to make her draw her foot back and allow me to close and lock the front door. (Back door's always locked.)

    I went and retrieved my 12 ga. (very near the front door, but not right by. Not saying precisely where.) and loaded it with six shells before racking a shell into battery as loudly as I could on my side of the door. I didn't hear any more complaints from the vagrant. I don't recall the police showing up after that, but they might have been called. I know that when the police have shown up at my house, I didn't greet them with the shotgun.

    That was the incident that made me decide no more uses of my phone by destitute neighbors without phone lines installed in their own apartments. I'll not call anyone for your medication or groceries. Only call I'll make is to 911 if you're trespassing or dying on my front porch.
    When they "Nudge. Shove. Shoot.",
    Don't retreat. Just reload.

  11. #20
    wolfhunter Guest
    They sent me three forms, so I filled in ALL the blanks and returned ALL the forms.

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