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Thread: "unabridged" 2nd amendment

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    There is a lot of discussion on the site regarding an "unabridged" 2nd amendment. No one who supports it ever defines it really. So I wanted to start a discussion about it. Does anyone think the 2nd amendment has NO restrictions? I mean absolutely zero. Not on who,and not on the what. In other words, can anyone keep and bear any arms? We all know rights are not without limits. Even free speech. So is this one any different?

    I will start. I do not believe the 2nd amendment is without limits. A couple examples:

    Someone kills a person or two while robbing a store, by shooting them, should lose their gun rights. If you support an "unabridged" 2nd amendment, would you disagree? Or should they be able, upon release from prison, to go to the nearest gun store and buy any gun they can afford, without any background check?

    I don't want my neighbor having certain weapons. Assault rifles, sure. Full auto's, fine. Suitcase nukes, well, hold on a minute, sparky. Not sure I want one, or want my neighbor having one. Same with a tank. Don't want him or her laying mines in their front yard either.

    Let me get something out of the way. I believe in the most limited government and the most freedom possible. But I do not want NO government. I believe that to the extent an individual has gun rights, they have the right to carry, open or concealed. Period. No permit necessary.
    By the farthest stretch of the imagination, how can anybody believe that they do not have the inalienable right to defend themselves and their families, etc., anywhere, any place, any time, in any way?
    Further, that they were not born with that right?

    Ok, so apparently you have yet to read and comprehend any of my posts or responses to virtually everything you have itemized in this redundant thread...

    So here we go again...

    READ "The Unabridged Second Amendment" as dissected by a period subject matter expert...
    http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/unabridged.2nd.html

    READ "Constitutional Republic 101" by a noted Constitutional Authority & expert:
    "The First Fundamental Principle of Constitutional Interpretation - Your Rights Don't Come From Government"...
    http://oath-keepers.blogspot.com/2009/03/first-fundamental-principle-of.html

    READ "Gun Bans Don't Think They Can Happen? Watch:"
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/firearm-politics-2nd-amendment-issues/5078-gun-bans-dont-think-can-happen-watch.html

    READ "Mythology of the "In Common" Use Firearm or Weapon Criteria..."
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/firearm-politics-2nd-amendment-issues/10515-mythology-common-use-firearm-weapon-criteria.html

    READ "The NRA Continues To Compromise On The Second Amendment"
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/firearm-politics-2nd-amendment-issues/9308-nra-continues-compromise-second-amendment.html

    READ The Weimar Republic
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic

    COMPREHEND that without the Unabridged Second Amendment, WE THE PEOPLE have no effective means to resist/replace a tyrannical government...

    COMPREHEND that without the Unabridged Second Amendment, none of the founding documents are worth the paper they are written on, and are virtually unenforceable... Moreover, there are no limits to what the Federal Government can impose on us.

    Further, as I have stated many times before, the Second Amendment does not state "Shall Not Be Infringed" Except...
    IF your zip code is x, or your standing at y or the type or class of weapon you desire to have is z...
    OR if you desire to carry said weapon openly or concealed...
    OR if you have passed whatever subject to change; legislated criteria has currently been specified this week to allow you to exercise your inherent right to defend yourself and your family, friends, neighbors etc., from all enemies foreign or domestic using equal or greater force than may be brought against you...
    Including but not limited to the tyranny of our own government...
    This was very clearly delineated by Jefferson and others...

    Lastly, as I have also said many times before; IF a person is deemed too dangerous to be among his/her fellow citizens; then the State/Fed takes responsibility for his/her personal safety and obviously should not be allowed to be in possession of any weapon; ONCE said individual has been deemed free to return to society; that person MUST have their rights restored in full, without limit; UNLESS said authority is willing to provide said individual and individuals family with 24x7 personal protection...

    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

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  3. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by bcarroll View Post
    Well?? I think you might be partually right?? You also forgot in those days they didnt beat around the bush. On conviction you was put to death. Whats the issue on the 2A if your not alive. As long as there has been people. There has been nut jobs. The most important question is how many 2nd or 3rd offenders did we have back then.
    I agree, the truth be known 95% of the crime in this country is committed by 5% of the population. In today's society we come up with any number of excuses to justify the crime. And then there is cruel and unusual punishment. Capital punishment might be cruel but some one tell me what is unusual about it. Over crowded jails might be cruel but how is this unusual. In my opinion if you do the crime you do the time I don't care how crowded it gets.
    "You can get a lot accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit" - Ronald Reagan

  4. #13
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    As long as you allow the SCOTUS and the bias of the members of the SCOTUS, to define the "Right" for you and accept that value as paramount, you will have to compromise how you exercise the Right in a manner as to adhere to the decision handed to you. The same is true for allowing any other person, group of people, or entity to decide how the "Right" is defined and the meaning of "Arms" is to be decided.

    The term "Arms" can mean; knife, gun, hatchet, hammer, bat, pepper spray, stun-gun, etc...

    Arm or Arms is an English word that has origins derived from other languages (The English language has many words that derive from words in other languages)

    [From Middle English armes, weapons, from Old French, pl. of arme, weapon, from Latin arma, weapons; see ar- in Indo-European roots. V., Middle English armen, from Old French armer, from Latin armre, from arma.]

    Definitions related to weapons:
    Noun;
    1. A weapon, especially a firearm: troops bearing arms; ICBMs, bombs, and other nuclear arms.
    2. A branch of a military force: infantry, armor, and other combat arms.
    3. arms
    a. Warfare: a call to arms against the invaders.
    b. Military service: several million volunteers under arms; the profession of arms.
    4. arms
    a. Heraldry Bearings.
    b. Insignia, as of a state, an official, a family, or an organization.

    Anatomical definitions:
    1. An upper limb of the human body, connecting the hand and wrist to the shoulder.
    2. A part similar to a human arm, such as the forelimb of an animal or a long part projecting from a central support in a machine.
    3. Something, such as a sleeve on a garment or a support on a chair, that is designed to cover or support the human arm.
    4. A relatively narrow extension jutting out from a large mass: an arm of the sea. See Synonyms at branch.
    5. An administrative or functional branch, as of an organization.
    6. Power or authority: the long arm of the law.
    7. Sports The skill of throwing or pitching a ball well.

    So we need to first decide which definition we refer to when speaking of arms? I have 2 arms and I have many other arms.
    Of which do I refer to when speaking of weapons?

    The word "Right" is an English word and it has many definitions.

    Here we go...

    adj. right·er, right·est
    1. Conforming with or conformable to justice, law, or morality: do the right thing and confess.
    2. In accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct: the right answer.
    3. Fitting, proper, or appropriate: It is not right to leave the party without saying goodbye.
    4. Most favorable, desirable, or convenient: the right time to act.
    5. In or into a satisfactory state or condition: put things right.
    6. In good mental or physical health or order.
    7. Intended to be worn or positioned facing outward or toward an observer: the right side of the dress; made sure that the right side of the fabric was visible.
    8.
    a. Of, belonging to, located on, or being the side of the body to the south when the subject is facing east.
    b. Of, relating to, directed toward, or located on the right side.
    c. Located on the right side of a person facing downstream: the right bank of a river.
    9. often Right Of or belonging to the political or intellectual right.
    10. Mathematics
    a. Formed by or in reference to a line or plane that is perpendicular to another line or plane.
    b. Having the axis perpendicular to the base: right cone.
    c. Having a right angle: a right triangle.
    11. Straight; uncurved; direct: a right line.
    12. Archaic Not spurious; genuine.
    n.
    1. That which is just, morally good, legal, proper, or fitting.
    2.
    a. The direction or position on the right side.
    b. The right side.
    c. The right hand.
    d. A turn in the direction of the right hand or side.
    3. often Right
    a. The people and groups who advocate the adoption of conservative or reactionary measures, especially in government and politics. Also called right wing.
    b. The opinion of those advocating such measures.
    4. Sports A blow delivered by a boxer's right hand.
    5. Baseball Right field.
    6.
    a. Something that is due to a person or governmental body by law, tradition, or nature.
    b. Something, especially humane treatment, claimed to be due to animals by moral principle.
    7. A just or legal claim or title.
    8.
    a. A stockholder's privilege of buying additional stock in a corporation at a special price, usually at par or at a price below the current market value.
    b. The negotiable certificate on which this privilege is indicated.
    c. A privilege of subscribing for a particular stock or bond. Often used in the plural.
    adv.
    1. Toward or on the right.
    2. In a straight line; directly: went right to school.
    3. In the proper or desired manner; well: The jacket doesn't fit right.
    4. Exactly; just: The accident happened right over there.
    5. Immediately: called me right after dinner.
    6. Completely; quite: The icy wind blew right through me.
    7. According to law, morality, or justice.
    8. Accurately; correctly: answered the question right.
    9. Chiefly Southern U.S. Considerably; very: They have a right nice place.
    10. Used as an intensive: kept right on going.
    11. Used in titles: The Right Reverend Jane Smith.
    v. right·ed, right·ing, rights
    v.tr.
    1. To put in or restore to an upright or proper position: They righted their boat.
    2. To put in order or set right; correct: measures designed to right generations of unfair labor practices.
    3. To make reparation or amends for; redress: right a wrong.
    v.intr.
    To regain an upright or proper position.
    Idioms:
    by rights
    In a just or proper manner; justly.
    in (one's) own right
    Through the force of one's own skills or qualifications.
    right and left
    From all directions or on every side: criticism coming right and left; questions raised from right and left.
    right away/off
    Immediately; at once; without delay.
    right on
    Slang Used as an exclamation of encouragement, support, or enthusiastic agreement.
    to rights
    In a satisfactory or orderly condition: set the place to rights.
    [Middle English, from Old English riht; see reg- in Indo-European roots. N., sense 3, from the fact that conservatives sit on the right side of the legislative chamber in various assemblies.]
    righter n.
    Synonyms: right, privilege, prerogative, perquisite, birthright
    These nouns apply to something, such as a power or possession, to which one has an established claim. Right refers to a legally, morally, or traditionally just claim: "I'm a champion for the Rights of Woman" (Maria Edgeworth). "An unconditional right to say what one pleases about public affairs is what I consider to be the minimum guarantee of the First Amendment" (Hugo L. Black).
    Privilege usually suggests a right not enjoyed by everyone: Use of the company jet was a privilege reserved for the top executives.
    Prerogative denotes an exclusive right or privilege, as one based on custom, law, or office: It is my prerogative to change my mind.
    A perquisite is a privilege or advantage accorded to one by virtue of one's position or the needs of one's employment: "The wardrobe of her niece was the perquisite of her [maid]" (Tobias Smollett).
    A birthright is a right to which one is entitled by birth: Many view gainful employment as a birthright.
    Our Living Language Speakers of Standard English mainly restrict the use of adverbial right to modify adverbs of space or time, as in She's right over there or Do it right now! No such restriction applies in Southern vernacular speech, where right can be used to intensify the meaning of many adjectives and adverbs, as in He's right nice or You talk right fast. This broader use of right is attested as far back as the 15th century and is found in the works of Shakespeare and other great writers. Thus, what appears to be neglect of Standard English rules is actually the retention of a once-proper historical usage. · The use of right as an adverb indicating directness, completeness, or general intensity seems to be related to the use of right in a more concrete sense to refer to something that is perfectly straight or perpendicular to something else, as in right angle. A similar connection between concrete and metaphorical meaning lies behind the Southern adverbial usage of plumb, as in He fell plumb asleep as an indicator of completeness or totality. See Note at smart.

    The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by Houghton Mifflin Company. All rights reserved.
    right [raɪt]
    adj
    1. in accordance with accepted standards of moral or legal behaviour, justice, etc. right conduct
    2. in accordance with fact, reason, or truth; correct or true the right answer
    3. appropriate, suitable, fitting, or proper the right man for the job
    4. most favourable or convenient; preferred the right time to act
    5. in a satisfactory condition; orderly things are right again now
    6. indicating or designating the correct time the clock is right
    7. correct in opinion or judgment
    8. sound in mind or body; healthy or sane
    9. (usually prenominal) of, designating, or located near the side of something or someone that faces east when the front is turned towards the north Related adj dextral
    10. (usually prenominal) worn on a right hand, foot, etc.
    11. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) (sometimes capital) of, designating, supporting, belonging to, or relating to the political or intellectual right (see sense 39)
    12. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) (sometimes capital) conservative or reactionary the right wing of the party
    13. (Mathematics) Geometry
    a. formed by or containing a line or plane perpendicular to another line or plane
    b. having the axis perpendicular to the base a right circular cone
    c. straight a right line
    14. relating to or designating the side of cloth worn or facing outwards
    15. Informal (intensifier) a right idiot
    in one's right mind sane
    she'll be right Austral and NZ informal that's all right; not to worry
    the right side of
    a. in favour with you'd better stay on the right side of him
    b. younger than she's still on the right side of fifty
    adv
    too right Austral and NZ informal an exclamation of agreement
    2. in accordance with correctness or truth; accurately to guess right
    3. in the appropriate manner; properly do it right next time!
    4. in a straight line; directly right to the top
    5. in the direction of the east from the point of view of a person or thing facing north
    6. absolutely or completely; utterly he went right through the floor
    7. all the way the bus goes right to the city centre
    8. without delay; immediately or promptly I'll be right over
    9. exactly or precisely right here
    10. in a manner consistent with a legal or moral code; justly or righteously do right by me
    11. in accordance with propriety; fittingly or suitably it serves you right
    12. to good or favourable advantage; well it all came out right in the end
    13. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (esp in religious titles) most or very right reverend
    14. Informal or dialect (intensifier) I'm right glad to see you
    right, left, and centre on all sides; from every direction
    right off the bat Informal as the first in a series; to begin with
    n
    1. any claim, title, etc., that is morally just or legally granted as allowable or due to a person I know my rights
    2. anything that accords with the principles of legal or moral justice
    3. the fact or state of being in accordance with reason, truth, or accepted standards (esp in the phrase in the right)
    4. Irish an obligation or duty you had a right to lock the door
    5. the right side, direction, position, area, or part the right of the army look to the right
    6. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) (often capital and preceded by the) the supporters or advocates of social, political, or economic conservatism or reaction, based generally on a belief that things are better left unchanged (opposed to radical or left)
    7. (Individual Sports & Recreations / Boxing) Boxing
    a. a punch with the right hand
    b. the right hand
    8. (Economics, Accounting & Finance / Banking & Finance) Finance
    a. (often plural) the privilege of a company's shareholders to subscribe for new issues of the company's shares on advantageous terms
    b. the negotiable certificate signifying this privilege
    by right (or rights) properly; justly by rights you should be in bed
    in one's own right having a claim or title oneself rather than through marriage or other connection a peeress in her own right
    to rights consistent with justice, correctness, or orderly arrangement he put the matter to rights
    vb (mainly tr)
    1. (also intr) to restore to or attain a normal, esp an upright, position the raft righted in a few seconds
    2. to make (something) accord with truth or facts; correct
    3. to restore to an orderly state or condition; put right
    4. to make reparation for; compensate for or redress (esp in the phrase right a wrong)
    sentence substitute
    a. indicating that a statement has been understood
    b. asking whether a statement has been understood
    c. indicating a subdividing point within a discourse
    interj
    an expression of agreement or compliance
    [Old English riht, reoht; related to Old High German reht, Gothic raihts, Latin rēctus]
    righter n

    Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged © HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
    Right
    See also left.

    dextrality
    1. the condition of having the right side distinct or different from the left.
    2. righthandedness.
    dextrogyration
    dextrorotation. — dextrogyric, adj.
    dextrorotation
    movement or rotation to the right, or clockwise. Also called dextrogyration.
    dextroversion
    the state or process of turning to the right.

    So, to which definition do we refer when using the word "Right"?

    Keep has a few definitions also.

    1. To retain possession of: kept the change; must keep your composure.
    2. To have as a supply: keep an ax in the shed.
    3.
    a. To provide (a family, for example) with maintenance and support: "There's little to earn and many to keep" (Charles Kingsley).
    b. To support (a mistress or lover) financially.
    4. To put customarily; store: Where do you keep your saw?
    5.
    a. To supply with room and board for a charge: keep boarders.
    b. To raise: keep chickens.
    6. To maintain for use or service: an urbanite who didn't keep a car.
    7. To manage, tend, or have charge of: Keep the shop while I'm away.
    8. To preserve (food).
    9. To cause to continue in a state, condition, or course of action: tried to keep the patient calm.
    10.
    a. To maintain records in: keep a yearly diary.
    b. To enter (data) in a book: keep financial records.
    11.
    a. To detain: was kept after school.
    b. To restrain: kept the child away from the stove; kept the crowd back with barriers.
    c. To prevent or deter: tried to keep the ice from melting.
    d. To refrain from divulging: keep a secret.
    e. To save; reserve: keep extra money for emergencies.
    12. To adhere or conform to; follow: keep late hours.
    13. To be faithful to; fulfill: keep one's word.
    14. To celebrate; observe.

    Which definition do we use here?

    It keeps going and going... Convoluted and confusing. Each decision made with regard to the manner in which free men shall exercise the right, and each liberal interpretation the 2nd Amendment is subject to erodes the very right itself. If we as a country of free people continue to subject "the Right" as it was simply written by our Founding Fathers to the scourge of liberalism, we will have nary a bit of the intended right to exercise.

    I read it as it was written. I really don't feel that it needs to be interpreted. Just respected and held sacred as if it were a rule not be broken...
    "A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed."
    You can give peace a chance alright..

    I'll seek cover in case it goes badly..

  5. #14
    Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State." Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)

    Does that mean a black homosexual has a fundamental right to marry a white homosexual, because the marriage to a "person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed"?

    Does that mean a 40 year old man has the uninfringed right to marry a 12 year old girl? or a 16 year old girl? Or his own daughter whatever her age?

    The answer to those questions is "no" because we first have to define marriage before we can apply the uninfringed right to marry.

    The Supreme Court has held that marriage includes two people of different genders of different races. The same way the Court held that the right to keep and bear arms includes possession of a handgun in one's home for one's personal defense.

    Those are the rights that cannot be infringed.

  6. #15
    handgonnetoter Guest
    I could be crazy, but I do believe in SOME limitations on what kinds of weapons one should be able to own. Military grade weapons really have no place in civilian life - unless we are under attack by millions of Chinese hoards or something like that. In a case like that, the government would probably be handing them out like party favors for free. I think that if someone can come up with the cash and pass the back ground checks, then you should be able to own fully automatic guns, but that is where I think the line should be drawn. What the heck would I do with a LAW or hand grenades? I used things like that when I was in the Marines, but that was a different world then than where I live now. I don't know what the best answer is, but I think we need some limitations to what, as civilians, we should be able to pack away in our gun cabinets. JMHO.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by handgonnetoter View Post
    I could be crazy, but I do believe in SOME limitations on what kinds of weapons one should be able to own. Military grade weapons really have no place in civilian life - unless we are under attack by millions of Chinese hoards or something like that. In a case like that, the government would probably be handing them out like party favors for free. I think that if someone can come up with the cash and pass the back ground checks, then you should be able to own fully automatic guns, but that is where I think the line should be drawn. What the heck would I do with a LAW or hand grenades? I used things like that when I was in the Marines, but that was a different world then than where I live now. I don't know what the best answer is, but I think we need some limitations to what, as civilians, we should be able to pack away in our gun cabinets. JMHO.
    "Rights that cannot be infringed" It means exactly that. Where the heck do you think most of our "Weapons" came from, Milton Bradly, Play-Do, Sesame Street? I do believe you should be able to own and possess any weapons BUT I ALSO believe you have to be liable for properly securing and insuring said weapons. Those that cannot provide adequate protection from theft should not be allowed. (BIG CAN OF WORMS HERE). Higher power weapons require higher security.
    Just my 2 Cents........Oh yea and a can of worms! GOT MILK?
    "The smallest minority on earth is the individual. Those who deny individual rights cannot claim to be defenders of minorities." --author and philosopher Ayn Rand (1905-1982)

  8. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by handgonnetoter View Post
    I could be crazy, but I do believe in SOME limitations on what kinds of weapons one should be able to own. Military grade weapons really have no place in civilian life - unless we are under attack by millions of Chinese hoards or something like that. In a case like that, the government would probably be handing them out like party favors for free. I think that if someone can come up with the cash and pass the back ground checks, then you should be able to own fully automatic guns, but that is where I think the line should be drawn. What the heck would I do with a LAW or hand grenades? I used things like that when I was in the Marines, but that was a different world then than where I live now. I don't know what the best answer is, but I think we need some limitations to what, as civilians, we should be able to pack away in our gun cabinets. JMHO.
    You are not crazy, just reasonable. I agree there should be SOME limitations on the RTKBA. Fully automatic arms are ok by me. I also agree with background checks ,because if someone kills another person with a gun, I believe they should lose gun rights. Not because they will obey the law, but because it is another crime to charge them with when they break it next time. I know I stand apart from many on this site in that regard, and I am ok with that. My point of starting this thread is that MOST people, not all, have their point at which they agree we lose their rights. The difference is where we draw the line.

    I never served, and I appreciate your service. What is a LAW?

  9. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by buddy View Post
    You are not crazy, just reasonable. I agree there should be SOME limitations on the RTKBA. Fully automatic arms are ok by me. I also agree with background checks ,because if someone kills another person with a gun, I believe they should lose gun rights. Not because they will obey the law, but because it is another crime to charge them with when they break it next time. I know I stand apart from many on this site in that regard, and I am ok with that. My point of starting this thread is that MOST people, not all, have their point at which they agree we lose their rights. The difference is where we draw the line.

    I never served, and I appreciate your service. What is a LAW?
    While personally, I think you are both more of a danger to the RTKBA than a pair of rabid anti-gun types, I'll answer your question anyway...

    LAW is a Light Antitank Weapon...sort of a disposible rocket launcher about 3 ft long.

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    Under our Constitution, the freedom to marry, or not marry, a person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed by the State." Loving v. Virginia, 388 U.S. 1 (1967)

    Does that mean a black homosexual has a fundamental right to marry a white homosexual, because the marriage to a "person of another race resides with the individual and cannot be infringed"?

    Does that mean a 40 year old man has the uninfringed right to marry a 12 year old girl? or a 16 year old girl? Or his own daughter whatever her age?

    The answer to those questions is "no" because we first have to define marriage before we can apply the uninfringed right to marry.

    The Supreme Court has held that marriage includes two people of different genders of different races. The same way the Court held that the right to keep and bear arms includes possession of a handgun in one's home for one's personal defense.

    Those are the rights that cannot be infringed.
    Do you believe that the seating of Elana Kagan as a judge in the SCOTUS, has allowed a bias to effect the decision making process?

    Will that bias further jeopardize the definition of the "Right"?

    I fear that we the people will be only one more liberally biased judge away from being told the "Right" is really not a right or the "Right" has a number of restrictions that will limit the way we the people are free to exercise it. The constant exposure to interpretation will render it sterile...

    Why are you so ready to allow others to define for you what is simply written and requires no interpretation?

    What the 2nd Amendment requires is protection from people like yourself who would offer no resistance to it's being repealed by a matter of definition and interpretation.. And we the people need protection from further compromise...

    My assessment remains unchanged.
    You can give peace a chance alright..

    I'll seek cover in case it goes badly..

  11. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by PaxMentis View Post
    While personally, I think you are both more of a danger to the RTKBA than a pair of rabid anti-gun types, I'll answer your question anyway...

    LAW is a Light Antitank Weapon...sort of a disposible rocket launcher about 3 ft long.
    +1

    AKA: Light Armor Weapon and some others...

    Not much good against any tanks made since the 1980's by us or the Russians ...

    could stop a standard deuce & half at most speeds with one though...

    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

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