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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    100% of your post here is just you projecting your fears onto me. Typical Liberal mindset, even if you dont consider or call yourself one.


    YOU HAVE NO DAMN IDEA WHAT I WOULD DO IN THE SAME SITUATION, zero, zilch, nada......, or anyone else for that matter, (unless you have dealt with the same person in the past in the exact same situation per your old profession, even then you cannot be 100% sure)

    You have NO RIGHT to tell ME or anyone else how to exercise our rights......... What dont YOU understand about THAT?.

    People in this country have rights, period, until, not before, (get that part through your liberal mind) their exercising of those rights infringes on anothers rights....


    For the record..... I myself would not have a drink if I was out somewhere that served alcohol...... But I will defend to the death ( I took an oath , I think you did too.....) anyone else's right to do so.
    I NEVER, not one time said I didn't SUPPORT YOUR RIGHT TO CARRY ANYWHERE. EVER. NOT ONCE. I am a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT TRUE BELIEVER IN THE CONSTITUTION AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION...ALSO A TEA PARTY CONSERVATIVE...I am ONLY saying that CARRYING A GUN WHILE DRINKING IS STUPID. I never said you CAN'T. I never said ANYTHING remotely to that effect. All I have said through this whole by now uselss excahnge is this: GUNS AND ALCOHOL DON'T MIX. It is the SAME as doing ANYTHING that requires sound JUDGEMENT and a CLEAR HEAD. I CHOOSE not to drink alchohol in general, but I think having a few beers and having a good time is GREAT...it just doesn't work for me and my leifestyle anymore. I never said DON'T DRINK. Hell, I'd be the guy to buy a round and laugh with the rest of the group, shoot a game of pool, embarrass myself with the darts, and play loud rock and roll on the jukebox. BUT I WON'T drink or be in the company of someone who is packing heat AND drinking. I have seen the bad results and lost lives too many times to think otherwise.

    So, you NEVER answered my question. How would you feel if YOUR loved one took an "accidental" and by "accidental" I mean NEGLIGENT bullet from a drunk's gun?

    Would you say..."Darn too bad they're dead, but hey man, good for you carrying that pistol while you were drunk! I am just glad you had it because boy oh boy, if you didn't have it...you might not have shot my friend/family member because you were TRYING to shoot that other guy who spilled your drink. That would have been tragic."

    I don't think so.

    I carry my gun everywhere. My wife, who is still a working officer carries hers everywhere. All my friends, even those who aren't cops...you guessed it...carry everywhere, even into bars and restaraunts that serve alcohol...but to a person...AVOID alcohol while doing it. Not because the law may say so...but becasue it is just good judgement. Period. I would even go so far as to say that if you have ONLY one beer...medically, you'd be okay, and I wouldn't even worry about that. Hell, I am 6'5" and 280...IF I were so inclined, I could handle 3 or 4 times as much as that, but I CHOOSE not to.

    Years of courtroom experience watching shyster lawyers and prosecutors who are ONLY interested in winning cases IN SPITE of what is right or JUST screw and railroad people have given me insight into how they work. If you had even one beer and were in a totally righteous shoot...they would hang your ass on the fact that YOU MADE A NEGLIGENT CHOICE to consume that alcohol, and make an argument to the jury, ho would probably buy it, thay had you NOT BEEN DRINKING would have made another choice, and been able to AVOID the shooting....BOOM...you are now convicted of negligent homicide or manslaughter...and now you REALLY dont't have a right to carry, own, be in possession of a firearm..oh yeah...no voting...none of the things we have the RIGHT to do, becauseYOU pissed yours away. Because remember this...they can present all the THEORIES they want to...they don't have to PROVE them. They just have to prove them "enough". I know it sucks...but that is the reality of it. Circumstantial evidence and slick attorneys has screwed more good people than anyone would like to admit.

    I don't argue the RIGHT to do it, I just argue the SMARTS of doing it. And you know what...you might be THAT guy who can still make sound decisions after drinking, but it has been my real world experience that the extremely vast majority are not CAPABLE of it.

    Do you know how many times I have been on calls where the husband tied one on, and though he didn't SHOOT his wife, he beat her half to death, or in more than a few cases DID beat her to death...no gun involved, just IMPAIRED judgement, doing something he would NEVER do sober? Dozens over a 22 year career.

    So, let me put it this way, and the last word I am going to say on the subject....

    WHAT IF...YOU were the one in the bar who had words with some drunk jackass. He's drunk...maybe totally crocked. I mean blotto and obnoxious. But you have had...let's say...three beers. Feeling no pain, but not what you or I would really call "drunk". So he says..."I am gonna kick your ass." No weapon...just "I am gonna kick your ass. You draw your pistol as he draws hear. You fire. Double tap. BAM BAM. Becasue your FINE motor skills are now dulled by your three beers...YOU miss him, or hit him peripherally and a thru and thru shot kills that 22 year old girl who was ONLY playing darts. Do you think WNYWHERE IN THERE you were negligent and probably should have made a smarter choice. All I am asking is: What if it was YOU who were the shooter?????????????????????? You have absloutely NO ground to stand on legally, and cannot use self defense as a positive defense. You can plead straight "not guilty". But really? Are you really NOT GUILTY? No...an innocent girl died of YOUR STUPIDITY. Why? Because you had enough alcohol in you to impair your judgement, fine motor skills, and oh yeah by the way...drunk loudmouth was unarmed..so now you are what? A MURDERER...because you got tipsy with a pistol.

    SO...yep. You proved your point by golly. You had the RIGHT to carry your gun into the bar and drink a few beers. I don't dispute the RIGHT to do it I never have disputed the right to. I dispute the SMART of doing it.

    "Here son...here's the keys to the truck, and here's that new Glock you've been wanting. Happy 21st birthday...why don't you go on down to Paddy O' Furniture's Bar and Grill, have a few beers on me. Be sure to carry your gun inside while you're celebrating." Is that a conversation you think you'd ever have?

    A RIGHT? Yes. Smart? No.

    Now endeth all I will say on this. Carry on.

  2.   
  3. #42
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    Snowman1911,
    I owe you and the others an apology...

    After going back and reading your prior posts more carefully, I have done myself what I have accused others of in the past..... I only saw what I wanted to in your posts, and didnt read what you actually wrote...

    Yes, there were some points you and I disagree on, but I went off onto a tangent arguing against something you didnt say, for that I am sorry.


    I do not agree that it is stupid or unwise to have a drink while armed. (even though I myself wont do it).. but that is my opinion, you have shown that yours is the opposite of mine. We both are entitled to those opinions (and expressing them)....

  4. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Axeanda45 View Post
    Snowman1911,
    I owe you and the others an apology...

    After going back and reading your prior posts more carefully, I have done myself what I have accused others of in the past..... I only saw what I wanted to in your posts, and didnt read what you actually wrote...

    Yes, there were some points you and I disagree on, but I went off onto a tangent arguing against something you didnt say, for that I am sorry.


    I do not agree that it is stupid or unwise to have a drink while armed. (even though I myself wont do it).. but that is my opinion, you have shown that yours is the opposite of mine. We both are entitled to those opinions (and expressing them)....
    Understood...and I apologize if I came on like a grizzley bear.

    I'd be the first guy to want to shake your hand, because even if we disagree...man...we have the right to do it and I stand by your right to say what's on your mind. Just like I'd stand by you in defending ANY of your rights as I'd expect you to do me with mine.

  5. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman1911 View Post
    I NEVER, not one time said I didn't SUPPORT YOUR RIGHT TO CARRY ANYWHERE. EVER. NOT ONCE. I am a ONE HUNDRED PERCENT TRUE BELIEVER IN THE CONSTITUTION AND THE BILL OF RIGHTS AND OUR GOD GIVEN RIGHT TO SELF DETERMINATION...ALSO A TEA PARTY CONSERVATIVE...I am ONLY saying that CARRYING A GUN WHILE DRINKING IS STUPID. I never said you CAN'T. I never said ANYTHING remotely to that effect. All I have said through this whole by now uselss excahnge is this: GUNS AND ALCOHOL DON'T MIX. It is the SAME as doing ANYTHING that requires sound JUDGEMENT and a CLEAR HEAD. I CHOOSE not to drink alchohol in general, but I think having a few beers and having a good time is GREAT...it just doesn't work for me and my leifestyle anymore. I never said DON'T DRINK. Hell, I'd be the guy to buy a round and laugh with the rest of the group, shoot a game of pool, embarrass myself with the darts, and play loud rock and roll on the jukebox. BUT I WON'T drink or be in the company of someone who is packing heat AND drinking. I have seen the bad results and lost lives too many times to think otherwise.

    So, you NEVER answered my question. How would you feel if YOUR loved one took an "accidental" and by "accidental" I mean NEGLIGENT bullet from a drunk's gun?

    Would you say..."Darn too bad they're dead, but hey man, good for you carrying that pistol while you were drunk! I am just glad you had it because boy oh boy, if you didn't have it...you might not have shot my friend/family member because you were TRYING to shoot that other guy who spilled your drink. That would have been tragic."

    I don't think so.

    I carry my gun everywhere. My wife, who is still a working officer carries hers everywhere. All my friends, even those who aren't cops...you guessed it...carry everywhere, even into bars and restaraunts that serve alcohol...but to a person...AVOID alcohol while doing it. Not because the law may say so...but becasue it is just good judgement. Period. I would even go so far as to say that if you have ONLY one beer...medically, you'd be okay, and I wouldn't even worry about that. Hell, I am 6'5" and 280...IF I were so inclined, I could handle 3 or 4 times as much as that, but I CHOOSE not to.

    Years of courtroom experience watching shyster lawyers and prosecutors who are ONLY interested in winning cases IN SPITE of what is right or JUST screw and railroad people have given me insight into how they work. If you had even one beer and were in a totally righteous shoot...they would hang your ass on the fact that YOU MADE A NEGLIGENT CHOICE to consume that alcohol, and make an argument to the jury, ho would probably buy it, thay had you NOT BEEN DRINKING would have made another choice, and been able to AVOID the shooting....BOOM...you are now convicted of negligent homicide or manslaughter...and now you REALLY dont't have a right to carry, own, be in possession of a firearm..oh yeah...no voting...none of the things we have the RIGHT to do, becauseYOU pissed yours away. Because remember this...they can present all the THEORIES they want to...they don't have to PROVE them. They just have to prove them "enough". I know it sucks...but that is the reality of it. Circumstantial evidence and slick attorneys has screwed more good people than anyone would like to admit.

    I don't argue the RIGHT to do it, I just argue the SMARTS of doing it. And you know what...you might be THAT guy who can still make sound decisions after drinking, but it has been my real world experience that the extremely vast majority are not CAPABLE of it.

    Do you know how many times I have been on calls where the husband tied one on, and though he didn't SHOOT his wife, he beat her half to death, or in more than a few cases DID beat her to death...no gun involved, just IMPAIRED judgement, doing something he would NEVER do sober? Dozens over a 22 year career.

    So, let me put it this way, and the last word I am going to say on the subject....

    WHAT IF...YOU were the one in the bar who had words with some drunk jackass. He's drunk...maybe totally crocked. I mean blotto and obnoxious. But you have had...let's say...three beers. Feeling no pain, but not what you or I would really call "drunk". So he says..."I am gonna kick your ass." No weapon...just "I am gonna kick your ass. You draw your pistol as he draws hear. You fire. Double tap. BAM BAM. Becasue your FINE motor skills are now dulled by your three beers...YOU miss him, or hit him peripherally and a thru and thru shot kills that 22 year old girl who was ONLY playing darts. Do you think WNYWHERE IN THERE you were negligent and probably should have made a smarter choice. All I am asking is: What if it was YOU who were the shooter?????????????????????? You have absloutely NO ground to stand on legally, and cannot use self defense as a positive defense. You can plead straight "not guilty". But really? Are you really NOT GUILTY? No...an innocent girl died of YOUR STUPIDITY. Why? Because you had enough alcohol in you to impair your judgement, fine motor skills, and oh yeah by the way...drunk loudmouth was unarmed..so now you are what? A MURDERER...because you got tipsy with a pistol.

    SO...yep. You proved your point by golly. You had the RIGHT to carry your gun into the bar and drink a few beers. I don't dispute the RIGHT to do it I never have disputed the right to. I dispute the SMART of doing it.

    "Here son...here's the keys to the truck, and here's that new Glock you've been wanting. Happy 21st birthday...why don't you go on down to Paddy O' Furniture's Bar and Grill, have a few beers on me. Be sure to carry your gun inside while you're celebrating." Is that a conversation you think you'd ever have?

    A RIGHT? Yes. Smart? No.

    Now endeth all I will say on this. Carry on.

    ********!!!!!!!!!!!

    When I mentioned 2nd Amendment you jumped all over me.

    That was a line you crossed that you should have.

    Now we know what you think of the 2nd Amendment.

    You showed your true colors when you called me stupid for believing in the
    2nd amendment.
    Ed
    "The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Edsworld View Post
    ********!!!!!!!!!!!

    When I mentioned 2nd Amendment you jumped all over me.

    That was a line you crossed that you should have.

    Now we know what you think of the 2nd Amendment.

    You showed your true colors when you called me stupid for believing in the
    2nd amendment.
    Negative...IF you could read and understand what I was saying...I jumped on YOUR post for RUNNING TO THE SECOND AMMENDMENT as your SINGULAR AND ONLY argument. If you READ EVERYTHING that I posted you will clearly see REPEADTEDLY that I stated: I BELIVE YOU HAVE THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO CARRY, but that I believe that carrying WHILE CONSUMING ALCOHOL IS STUPID. Never, not one time did I say it should be illegal. Not one. It is about making the SMART choice, not about denying anyone their RIGHT to do something. The 2nd Ammendment is clear and needs no interpretation. THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, literally means..."THE RIGHT TO OWN AND CARRY WEAPONS" Period. Nothing is more clear than that. There is a big difference between something being a right and something that you have a right to do being the smart INDVIDUAL CHOICE.

    Look at it this way....It is your RIGHT to walk up to Mike Tyson and say.."Mike, I think you are a POS and the N-Word. That's my opinion, and by golly it is my RGHT to tell you so."

    Mr. Tyson takes umbrage with you for calling him the N-word...and he has a RIGHT to be angry, and he beats you senseless and bites off part of your ear.

    Though you had the RIGHT to say and feel what you did....was it SMART? Assuming of course he didn't beat you until you were a slobbering pile of goo drooling in your shoes and wearing a helmet while you look for your coloring books.

    I never aruged the RIGHT to do it or not. I argued the SMART of doing it. I don't think it is SMART. I think it is the exact OPPOSITE of smart to drink when you carry in a bar or ANYWHERE. Period.

    There is a precept in latin called: Mallum in se. Which means something is wrong JUST BECAUSE IT IS. Wrong in an of itself and you need no one to legislate that it is wrong...like child molestation. We don't need ANYONE to tell us it is wrong because it is WRONG on a visceral level. It just IS.

    The other side of that is: Mallum se prohibitum. That means it is only wrong because someone says or legislates that it is wrong. There is nothing in and of itself wrong about doing it...like speeding on an open and deserted stretch of highway. If you pose no risk to anyone but yourself...why not drive your car faster than 65? You are hurting no one. If the highway is deserted you won't hurt anyone but yourself if you screw up. Shame on you for dying of stupid, but people have been dying of stupid forever.

    Drinking and gunning is wrong in and of itself. CHOOSING to IMPAIR your judgement and your ability to control yourself, your emotional and physical responses while in possession and control of a deadly weapon is the act of an idiot, and just beggin for a bad outcome. I NEVER said it shouldn't be your RIGHT to carry into a bar or anywhere you are otherwise legally allowed to be...not once. I carry into a bar regularly. I carry everywhere. I simply don't DRINK. THAT is what I am against. Drinking and packing. I believe it is stupid. Mallum in se...wrong in and of itself. I wouldn't support legislation that prohibited it...I am real big on personal responsibility, and to be truly responsible tells me and any reasonable person that drinking and guns DO NOT MIX.

    So you are now once again free to say I am anti-second ammendment though EVERYTHING I have wrtiien here is CONTRARY to your incorrect assertion. I am 100% pro second ammendment. I am 100% ANTI getting drunk and carrying a gun. If you're gonna go to a bar and drink...lock it in your vehicle. Easy Peasy Cheesy.

    Yeah...lots more people die from drunk drivers every year becase VERY RARELY does someone drive their truck through the wall of a bar and run over some idiot who insulted them. I am sure it has happened...but that's a call I never took on the job.

  7. Dang. And here I thought this almost got defused even after the caps lock came out.

    I agree that drinking and carrying is, in general, a bad idea. However, I also don't think the irresponsible actions of the few should be used to justify infringing upon the rights of the many. Murder, manslaughter, and negligent homicide are already illegal, regardless of the circumstances. Imagine if that thought process were used to legislate on other issues.

    Actually, never mind. It is. Sometimes I hate being a libertarian.

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by SpaceFrank View Post
    Dang. And here I thought this almost got defused even after the caps lock came out.

    I agree that drinking and carrying is, in general, a bad idea. However, I also don't think the irresponsible actions of the few should be used to justify infringing upon the rights of the many. Murder, manslaughter, and negligent homicide are already illegal, regardless of the circumstances. Imagine if that thought process were used to legislate on other issues.

    Actually, never mind. It is. Sometimes I hate being a libertarian.
    Bur Frank....WHERE did I say or assert that it should be illegal? Nowhere. I just said it is STUPID. As a libertarian, you should know that one cannot fix, repair, or legislate stupid...as Forrest Gump so ably put it..."Stupid is as stupid does."

    I fail to see how anyone can say that my personal stand that carrying a gun while drinking is stupid, and the act of a complete idiot, is "infringing" on anything. It is just MY opinion based upon seeing real and tangible tragedy and the blood on the floor. It is MY choice NOT to drink while in possession of a deadly weapon. I am not prosposing legislation to ban or limit in ANY way whatsoever where one carries. I believe ABSOLUTELY in our RIGHT to do so. All I am saying is one should be SMART enough to know when to DECIDE FOR YOURSELF that you ought to just lock it in the truck when you're going to imbibe.

    Enough douchebags who get loaded and kill someone over something stupid, or worse...by missing their target and killing someone who had nothing to do with it will give the anti-gunners more ammunition to use against those of us who excercise OUR RIGHTS and to limit them. Then...where will that get us?

    I fought for HR218 LEOSA that gives cops and retired cops the RIGHT to carry nation-wide. Some will say it is elitist. I disagree...that will HOPEFULLY..lead to nationwide reciprocity for ALL ccw holders. But in order for that to happen we need to excercise personal responsibility and be seen as reasonable law abiding folk instead of the "gun totin' wing nuts" the libtards would have us be viewed as. Getting loaded and packin' heat isn't the way to do it.

    SECOND AMMENDMENT...Clear as a bell, 100 % absolutely right. Pack 'em if you got 'em. Amen!

  9. Apologies in advance for the double post, but I need to articulate my point better.

    The deliberate impairment of your faculties should definitely be considered whenever doing something potentially dangerous, be it carrying a deadly weapon, driving an automobile, or anything else where a mistake on your part can cause harm to others. However, I disagree with Snowman's point about drinking and carrying being mallum in se. What is mallum in se is an unjustified use of your weapon, regardless of the quality of your judgment at the time.

    Let's say you are drunk, you shoot someone with your gun, and you claim self-defense. I think that the court should determine whether your shooting was legally justified before even considering your mental state. If it was justified, then congratulations. Either your judgment was not that impaired, or you got lucky. I think that impairing your mental faculties is just a responsibility you have to take. Just like speeding on an empty road at night.

    Personally, I wouldn't trust most people's ability to judge a life-and-death situation after a few beers, and I'm certainly not going to test it myself. But not everyone is the same. The only fair method is to judge the outcome of a given situation and punish the offenders accordingly. This is the way I feel about most similar issues.
    Last edited by SpaceFrank; 11-20-2010 at 11:31 AM. Reason: Hey, missed your post. Hold on a minute.

  10. I understand your point, Snowman. I feel pretty much the same way as you do, and I didn't mean to insinuate that you were advocating a legislative stance.

    I agree with you on needing to be seen as responsible gun owners. Having been involved in SCCC campaigning, I've had to keep my mouth shut on certain issues and just focus on the goal at hand, lest I be seen as a nut just because I personally feel that selective-fire weapons are awesome, for example.

  11. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Snowman1911 View Post
    Negative...IF you could read and understand what I was saying...I jumped on YOUR post for RUNNING TO THE SECOND AMMENDMENT as your SINGULAR AND ONLY argument. If you READ EVERYTHING that I posted you will clearly see REPEADTEDLY that I stated: I BELIVE YOU HAVE THE ABSOLUTE RIGHT TO CARRY, but that I believe that carrying WHILE CONSUMING ALCOHOL IS STUPID. Never, not one time did I say it should be illegal. Not one. It is about making the SMART choice, not about denying anyone their RIGHT to do something. The 2nd Ammendment is clear and needs no interpretation. THE RIGHT TO KEEP AND BEAR ARMS, literally means..."THE RIGHT TO OWN AND CARRY WEAPONS" Period. Nothing is more clear than that. There is a big difference between something being a right and something that you have a right to do being the smart INDVIDUAL CHOICE.

    Look at it this way....It is your RIGHT to walk up to Mike Tyson and say.."Mike, I think you are a POS and the N-Word. That's my opinion, and by golly it is my RGHT to tell you so."

    Mr. Tyson takes umbrage with you for calling him the N-word...and he has a RIGHT to be angry, and he beats you senseless and bites off part of your ear.

    Though you had the RIGHT to say and feel what you did....was it SMART? Assuming of course he didn't beat you until you were a slobbering pile of goo drooling in your shoes and wearing a helmet while you look for your coloring books.

    I never aruged the RIGHT to do it or not. I argued the SMART of doing it. I don't think it is SMART. I think it is the exact OPPOSITE of smart to drink when you carry in a bar or ANYWHERE. Period.

    There is a precept in latin called: Mallum in se. Which means something is wrong JUST BECAUSE IT IS. Wrong in an of itself and you need no one to legislate that it is wrong...like child molestation. We don't need ANYONE to tell us it is wrong because it is WRONG on a visceral level. It just IS.

    The other side of that is: Mallum se prohibitum. That means it is only wrong because someone says or legislates that it is wrong. There is nothing in and of itself wrong about doing it...like speeding on an open and deserted stretch of highway. If you pose no risk to anyone but yourself...why not drive your car faster than 65? You are hurting no one. If the highway is deserted you won't hurt anyone but yourself if you screw up. Shame on you for dying of stupid, but people have been dying of stupid forever.

    Drinking and gunning is wrong in and of itself. CHOOSING to IMPAIR your judgement and your ability to control yourself, your emotional and physical responses while in possession and control of a deadly weapon is the act of an idiot, and just beggin for a bad outcome. I NEVER said it shouldn't be your RIGHT to carry into a bar or anywhere you are otherwise legally allowed to be...not once. I carry into a bar regularly. I carry everywhere. I simply don't DRINK. THAT is what I am against. Drinking and packing. I believe it is stupid. Mallum in se...wrong in and of itself. I wouldn't support legislation that prohibited it...I am real big on personal responsibility, and to be truly responsible tells me and any reasonable person that drinking and guns DO NOT MIX.

    So you are now once again free to say I am anti-second ammendment though EVERYTHING I have wrtiien here is CONTRARY to your incorrect assertion. I am 100% pro second ammendment. I am 100% ANTI getting drunk and carrying a gun. If you're gonna go to a bar and drink...lock it in your vehicle. Easy Peasy Cheesy.

    Yeah...lots more people die from drunk drivers every year becase VERY RARELY does someone drive their truck through the wall of a bar and run over some idiot who insulted them. I am sure it has happened...but that's a call I never took on the job.
    If you're gonna go to a bar and drink...lock it in your vehicle.
    Ed
    "The tree of Liberty needs to be watered from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants." Thomas Jefferson 3rd president of US (1743 - 1826)

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