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Thread: Does Pro choice = Pro Abortion???

  1. Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    It is not my decision to make as it's not my body. Until we have concrete medical and scientific evidence as to when life does start and end, it's just a cluster of self replicating DNA.

    I also will state for the record here that I have absolutely no issue being a legally armed escort for a woman who wishes to use the legal services of an family planning clinic. I will also state that I have no issue whatsoever drawing my firearm and using it to legally defend said clinic, its staff or patients from acts of terrorism from overzealous anti-choice activists because it is legal in this country and I hope it stays that way. Using acts of terrorism against these clinics and their patients is just as criminal as 9/11. Like it or not, it is a freedom in this country, some freedoms are just difficult to swallow.

    If you want to deal with the unwanted pregnancy issue, have the talk with your children and see about having your daughter's OB/GYN prescribe birth control. Or better yet, buy your teenage kids condoms. That's how you deal with the unwanted pregnancy and abortion issue if it bothers you so much. Educate your children so it won't be a problem. I'd rather deal with that then be a grandparent prematurely. An once of prevention is worth a ton of cure when it comes to getting surprise packages from the stork. Oh wait a minute. The same anti-choice zealots are also against schools teaching sex education and put their heads in their sand or have a proverbial gluteous maximus for head wear when it comes to the birds and the bees. No wonder we have such an issue with unwanted pregnancies.

    It is not my place to impose beliefs that do not affect me personally or the safety of the public as a whole. A woman exercising her right to choose does not affect our society as a whole or any of us individually. That decision she has to deal with. It is her business and decision to make, no one else's.
    Neither is it the woman's "body;" her baby's DNA is unique and therefore is the baby's body. Do you use the word "cluster" to dehumanize the baby? You used to be a "cluster" of self-replicating DNA.

    This "cluster" has purpose; it is not a case of random chance; a baby will likely be born 40 weeks after conception. After a few weeks from conception this "cluster" has arms, legs, eyes, and a beating heart.

    We have "concrete scientific data on when life begins and life ends"; check out the movie "Life in the Womb" or google "human reproduction". Most pro-choice folks don't even deny that the fetus is human life; they deny it's a "person". Which is what the US Supreme Court said in the Dred Scot case (i.e., Dred wasn't a "person" under the US Constitution); ironically they didn't address this question in Roe v. Wade. (Check out what Laurence Tribe says about the legal soundness of Roe v. Wade; Tribe is pro-choice.)

    Even if there is doubt on the humanhood or personhood of the fetus shouldn't we give LIFE the benefit of the doubt? Some people question whether the 2A gives an individual right to keep and bear arms. Wouldn't we argue that it's common sense to give the individual right side the benefit of any doubt?

    How can you advocate for gun rights (or any other right) if you don't believe in imposing you views on others? Politics and the political system is all about "imposing beliefs on everyone else." Anti-gunners honestly believe concealed carry is an imposition on their "right" to safety. Speed limits are an imposition on people who want to go faster than the limit posted. The income tax is an imposition on income earners.

    If a BG kills an child or adult how does that "affect our society as a whole or any of us individually?" If you see a stranger being attacked and you're carrying, would you not intervene to stop the attack? What RIGHT do you have to intervene? Would you even try to assess the affect your intervention will have on society or you? You'd probably intervene to save the person's life because that is the morally correct thing to do; people have a right to life. Well, pro-lifers believe that life starts at conception, not birth.

    There have been about 40 million people aborted since Roe v. Wade. If the overwhelming majority of current US citizens "affect our society" in a positive way, then overwhelming majority of those people aborted would also have affected our society in a positive way. There absence then "affects" the society negatively. Incidentially, how many prospective law-abiding gun owners were in that 40 million?

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  3. #22
    From the time of conception God has a plan for that child. The woman is aborting God's child, not just hers.
    David

    The only person available to protect you 24 hours a day is you.

  4. #23
    As for the question is it a human life or not.......

    22 "If people are fighting and a pregnant woman is hit and gives birth prematurely [e] but there is no serious injury, the offender must be fined whatever the woman's husband demands and the court allows. 23 But if there is serious injury, you are to take life for life, 24 eye for eye, tooth for tooth, hand for hand, foot for foot, 25 burn for burn, wound for wound, bruise for bruise. Exodus 21:22-25
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  5. #24
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    Amazing...

    Quote Originally Posted by glocked View Post
    Even if there is doubt on the humanhood or personhood of the fetus shouldn't we give LIFE the benefit of the doubt? Some people question whether the 2A gives an individual right to keep and bear arms. Wouldn't we argue that it's common sense to give the individual right side the benefit of any doubt?
    This is the same argument the government used to intervene in the Schiavo incident. Do you also believe that life ends when all biological functions stop? If I was in that state, I'd want someone to call Kevorkian quick care and put and end to it. I do have a living will and advanced directives. We all know she was never going to wake up and smell the coffee after the pathology report was published. Let's take it to another extreme about life. What right do we have to eradicate our bodies of harmful bacteria with antibiotics or treat cancer. We could be stopping the course of another species or the next step in our evolution.
    How can you advocate for gun rights (or any other right) if you don't believe in imposing you views on others? Politics and the political system is all about "imposing beliefs on everyone else." Anti-gunners honestly believe concealed carry is an imposition on their "right" to safety. Speed limits are an imposition on people who want to go faster than the limit posted. The income tax is an imposition on income earners.
    Exercising my 2A rights and being a strong advocate in CCW does not affect other people any more than whether or not I wear boxers or briefs or the make and model vehicles I own. I am not forcing anyone to carry or own firearms. Me carrying a firearm for personal protection is an individual right and responsibility just like it's an individual right and responsibility of a female to determine what to do if she gets pregnant. It is not my right or society's place to intervene in what she wishes to do with her body. Not my body, not my decision. Carrying a fetus for 9 months affects a woman for at least 9 months. Have you also looked at the price of raising a child? Are you going to burden our economic system further? Do you have the right to impose your will that she carries a child she doesn't want or cannot care for? Do you have the right to impose that she go through a biological process that may potentially damage her health. Anytime a female gets pregnant she does run the risk of serious complications or death if the fetus is carried to term. My arguments for pro-choice stem from the fact that it's not my body, not my decision to make. It's not my place to impose or mandate what a female does with her body. It's also not my business.

    Speed limits are there in the interest of public safety. If you're going faster than it's safe to do so you are can affect the safety of the general public. Pro-choice does not affect the safety of the public. Anti-choice does endanger the public because of the health risks with the back alley practices.

    Income taxes impose everyone. However, I also believe in the statement, I'm a taxpayer and I have my rights.
    If a BG kills an child or adult how does that "affect our society as a whole or any of us individually?" If you see a stranger being attacked and you're carrying, would you not intervene to stop the attack? What RIGHT do you have to intervene? Would you even try to assess the affect your intervention will have on society or you? You'd probably intervene to save the person's life because that is the morally correct thing to do; people have a right to life.
    There's a difference between a sentient being and a fetus that has not achieved sentience. No one can say when life begins and when it ends. In the early stages a fetus cannot survive on its own. I requires its biological mother for the first couple of trimesters. So what separates that from any other parasite such as a tapeworm? What right do we have to eradicate a tape worm from our body given that logic? Pro-choice is not murder by virtue of the definition we do not have a concrete definition of when life starts. A stranger on the street life is already in progress. They are a sentient being. Other people's lives are affected by them not being here. They pay taxes.
    There have been about 40 million people aborted since Roe v. Wade. If the overwhelming majority of current US citizens "affect our society" in a positive way, then overwhelming majority of those people aborted would also have affected our society in a positive way. There absence then "affects" the society negatively.
    Quantum physics is presently only theory. You can only speculate on what possibly could happen. It is not fact nor ever will be fact in this reality what any aborted fetus would have become because we simple don't know nor will ever know. Once a fetus becomes a person, we already have some gauge of how our life and society will be affected. A family losing their mother with two kids and a husband are going to be affected. It'll be a burden to the economic system as their house may foreclose because of the loss of income to the household. Their children who are sentient beings will also be affected. However, take that same scenario with a twist. The mother in that family is pregnant and she miscarries or chooses to get an abortion because they cannot take care of another child. Does that affect me? No. Does it affect you? No. Is it any of your business if she elects to do that? Not all. Does it have any economic change on society as a whole? No.

    Now let's take the right to carry scenario.

    Joe Carry has a CCW, a spouse and two kids. He gets involved in an incident where he needs to use his CCW in lawful self defense. He dispatches someone who just got out of prison and was let out for good behavior because the system does not work. His spouse and children get to see Joe another day probably for many years to come. He continues to pay his taxes and lives a normal life. Mortgage paid off, kids off to college, etc.

    John F. Doe is in the opposite extreme. He does not or cannot carry, has a spouse, two kids. He's killed by someone fresh out of prison. Gets his car stolen. He makes his way to the Doe household, rapes and kills his wife just as she was leaving to pick up her children from school. We now have two dead people. The subject who did this is still out there. Two children without their parents that may end up getting ground up and turned into cans of spam by the State child protective services system. Their house forecloses which affects the economy in a negative fashion. We have lost two tax payers.

    This is why the Florida shall issue statute passed. The Florida State government found out the hard way they cannot protect its citizens.

    For all of the people who use religious arguments and cite the Bible, that has as much relevance to a logical argument as the National Enquirer. Yes you have the right to believe in whatever deities you want, but they have no relevance or fact.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  6. #25

    Murder

    Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    This is the same argument the government used to intervene in the Schiavo incident. Do you also believe that life ends when all biological functions stop? If I was in that state, I'd want someone to call Kevorkian quick care and put and end to it. I do have a living will and advanced directives. We all know she was never going to wake up and smell the coffee after the pathology report was published. Let's take it to another extreme about life. What right do we have to eradicate our bodies of harmful bacteria with antibiotics or treat cancer. We could be stopping the course of another species or the next step in our evolution.

    Exercising my 2A rights and being a strong advocate in CCW does not affect other people any more than whether or not I wear boxers or briefs or the make and model vehicles I own. I am not forcing anyone to carry or own firearms. Me carrying a firearm for personal protection is an individual right and responsibility just like it's an individual right and responsibility of a female to determine what to do if she gets pregnant. It is not my right or society's place to intervene in what she wishes to do with her body. Not my body, not my decision. Carrying a fetus for 9 months affects a woman for at least 9 months. Have you also looked at the price of raising a child? Are you going to burden our economic system further? Do you have the right to impose your will that she carries a child she doesn't want or cannot care for? Do you have the right to impose that she go through a biological process that may potentially damage her health. Anytime a female gets pregnant she does run the risk of serious complications or death if the fetus is carried to term. My arguments for pro-choice stem from the fact that it's not my body, not my decision to make. It's not my place to impose or mandate what a female does with her body. It's also not my business.

    Speed limits are there in the interest of public safety. If you're going faster than it's safe to do so you are can affect the safety of the general public. Pro-choice does not affect the safety of the public. Anti-choice does endanger the public because of the health risks with the back alley practices.

    Income taxes impose everyone. However, I also believe in the statement, I'm a taxpayer and I have my rights.

    There's a difference between a sentient being and a fetus that has not achieved sentience. No one can say when life begins and when it ends. In the early stages a fetus cannot survive on its own. I requires its biological mother for the first couple of trimesters. So what separates that from any other parasite such as a tapeworm? What right do we have to eradicate a tape worm from our body given that logic? Pro-choice is not murder by virtue of the definition we do not have a concrete definition of when life starts. A stranger on the street life is already in progress. They are a sentient being. Other people's lives are affected by them not being here. They pay taxes.

    Quantum physics is presently only theory. You can only speculate on what possibly could happen. It is not fact nor ever will be fact in this reality what any aborted fetus would have become because we simple don't know nor will ever know. Once a fetus becomes a person, we already have some gauge of how our life and society will be affected. A family losing their mother with two kids and a husband are going to be affected. It'll be a burden to the economic system as their house may foreclose because of the loss of income to the household. Their children who are sentient beings will also be affected. However, take that same scenario with a twist. The mother in that family is pregnant and she miscarries or chooses to get an abortion because they cannot take care of another child. Does that affect me? No. Does it affect you? No. Is it any of your business if she elects to do that? Not all. Does it have any economic change on society as a whole? No.

    Now let's take the right to carry scenario.

    Joe Carry has a CCW, a spouse and two kids. He gets involved in an incident where he needs to use his CCW in lawful self defense. He dispatches someone who just got out of prison and was let out for good behavior because the system does not work. His spouse and children get to see Joe another day probably for many years to come. He continues to pay his taxes and lives a normal life. Mortgage paid off, kids off to college, etc.

    John F. Doe is in the opposite extreme. He does not or cannot carry, has a spouse, two kids. He's killed by someone fresh out of prison. Gets his car stolen. He makes his way to the Doe household, rapes and kills his wife just as she was leaving to pick up her children from school. We now have two dead people. The subject who did this is still out there. Two children without their parents that may end up getting ground up and turned into cans of spam by the State child protective services system. Their house forecloses which affects the economy in a negative fashion. We have lost two tax payers.

    This is why the Florida shall issue statute passed. The Florida State government found out the hard way they cannot protect its citizens.

    For all of the people who use religious arguments and cite the Bible, that has as much relevance to a logical argument as the National Enquirer. Yes you have the right to believe in whatever deities you want, but they have no relevance or fact.


    Did you look at my orgional post with the site you can click on to see the aborted baby? The one that had been torn apart limb by limb? Does that look like a FETUS to you? If you can tell me you looked at it and can not see a baby then I really have to wonder about you. I am sure you have your mind made up and no one will confuse you with the facts. You can justity anything if you try hard enough. Hitler did and and he killed thousands of "Unwanted People".
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  7. Yes

    You'll find that the "progressive" (still a liberal) newspeak will always lean toward touchy-feely wording...pro-choice is still abortion, no matter how you look at it.

    You'll also find that their proposed bills in Congress have wording something like, "for the children", "protect...children", "rights of the child", etc. and when the bill is voted down, they'll accuse the detractors as "hating children", against children's rights" etc. They're a slimey, twisty-turny bunch and don't be fooled by their wording.

  8. #27
    The more things change the more they stay the same.


    http://hills.ccsf.cc.ca.us/~jinouy01...rt_hitler.html
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  9. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Did you look at my orgional post with the site you can click on to see the aborted baby? The one that had been torn apart limb by limb? Does that look like a FETUS to you? If you can tell me you looked at it and can not see a baby then I really have to wonder about you. I am sure you have your mind made up and no one will confuse you with the facts. You can justity anything if you try hard enough. Hitler did and and he killed thousands of "Unwanted People".
    I've also seen the frozen alien human hybrid on the X-Files and similar things in jars on TV. Do you also consider the case of a baby that was born without the top half of its skull including the cerebellum a person? I don't anymore than I consider Terri Schiavo alive before the plug was pulled. We all know from psychology and neuroscience that this baby will have the existance of comparable to an amoeba, how is that life or living? How is that productive to society?

    Funny how you equate me with Hitler. Hitler mandated the Final Resolution. He mandated the executions and concentration camps. I am not mandating anything. I am advocating a woman's right to choose what happens to her body. That's all. I am not mandating anyone get an abortion. What I am advocating is that the option be available to any pregnant female in a legal and safe manner from licensed medical professionals. I have talked with females and a majority of them have said, "I will not kill my baby." That is their choice and I don't have an issue with it. It's the freedom of choice I am advocating. Do you also believe that using birth control is murder? You are preventing conception and by your reasoning preventing life.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  10. #29

    X-files

    Quote Originally Posted by netentity View Post
    I've also seen the frozen alien human hybrid on the X-Files and similar things in jars on TV. Do you also consider the case of a baby that was born without the top half of its skull including the cerebellum a person? I don't anymore than I consider Terri Schiavo alive before the plug was pulled. We all know from psychology and neuroscience that this baby will have the existance of comparable to an amoeba, how is that life or living? How is that productive to society?

    Funny how you equate me with Hitler. Hitler mandated the Final Resolution. He mandated the executions and concentration camps. I am not mandating anything. I am advocating a woman's right to choose what happens to her body. That's all. I am not mandating anyone get an abortion. What I am advocating is that the option be available to any pregnant female in a legal and safe manner from licensed medical professionals. I have talked with females and a majority of them have said, "I will not kill my baby." That is their choice and I don't have an issue with it. It's the freedom of choice I am advocating. Do you also believe that using birth control is murder? You are preventing conception and by your reasoning preventing life.

    And what if you mother or father gets to the point where they are no longer a value to society. Should you have the right to terminate their lives. How dare you relate a baby whose life has been destroyed with no more regard for him or her than you would for a roach by comparing it to some garbage on some stupid t.V. show. I have also talked to women who made the mistake of an abortion and have gone through great depression and guilt. The Doctors that murder the babies never tell them what they will be facing. They are never shown what really happens to the baby when it is done. The women never get to see pictures or sonograms of the baby being torn apart or burnred in a terrible death via saline abortion. Why are they not told? They are not told because most of the women that have a conscience would not go on with the abortion if they knew what they were really doing. And then the Doctors and nurses would have to get a job doing something other than murdering babies. For them it is all about the money.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  11. #30
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    The irrationality continues...

    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    And what if you mother or father gets to the point where they are no longer a value to society. Should you have the right to terminate their lives.
    Absolutely within the the parameters allowed by law. I would expect my children to do the same for me and I have taken legal steps to make sure that does indeed happen through living wills, durable powers of attorney and advanced directives. I did say early on in this thread that I am pro-euthanasia. In many instances we treat are pets better than we treat the terminally ill. I am pro-individual rights. Pro-choice is an individual right for the pregnant female. The 2nd Amendment is an individual right. The right to die is an individual right. Freedom of speech is an individual right. Do I need to go on? Religion and the government has no business interfering or abridging these individual rights. You want to change it? Become an attorney and write briefs to overturn Rowe vs. Wade. It's stood the test of time for many years now.
    How dare you relate a baby whose life has been destroyed with no more regard for him or her than you would for a roach by comparing it to some garbage on some stupid t.V. show.
    What life? It hasn't started. When the fetus becomes an independent biological sentient entity that has a reasonable probability of developing normal cognitive function is roughly where the line is with me. A baby born without most of its brain isn't a person and never will be one, it's just a set of otherwise healthy organs to be harvested. Perhaps from that tragedy other babies that are wanted but require an organ transplant can be saved.
    The Doctors that murder the babies never tell them what they will be facing. They are never shown what really happens to the baby when it is done. The women never get to see pictures or sonograms of the baby being torn apart or burnred in a terrible death via saline abortion. Why are they not told? They are not told because most of the women that have a conscience would not go on with the abortion if they knew what they were really doing. And then the Doctors and nurses would have to get a job doing something other than murdering babies. For them it is all about the money.
    It is a patient's responsibility to ask those questions. It is also the female's responsibility to seek the necessary counseling and weigh all of her options. I am advocating options. What option she takes has no relevance to my present day life because it's not my business. It is a decision they have to live with. It's not about money. Those doctors typically work in government subsidized facilities or are doctors in a private practice that volunteer their time at these facilities. They are doing a service to society by providing quality care to females in need. Any one in the medical practice will tell you that's not where the money is. Also by the choice being a legalized option, you are eliminating the risk to the female's health and the transmission of contagious diseases being spread by the use of substandard facilities or unqualified personnel. If Rowe vs. Wade is overturned, pregnant women will still get an abortion somehow either illegally in this country or they'll go to another country and get it done there and may end up dying on the table or spreading diseases back to the States. By that argument alone, it needs to stay legal in the interest of public health and safety.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

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