Who Do You Like For President/Vice-President In 2012? - Page 13
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Thread: Who Do You Like For President/Vice-President In 2012?

  1. I don't like those two actions any more than you do but "war criminal" is a stretch.

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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by cawpin View Post
    I don't like those two actions any more than you do but "war criminal" is a stretch.
    war crime n. Any of various crimes, such as genocide or the mistreatment of prisoners of war, committed during a war and considered in violation of the conventions of warfare. --war criminal n.

    One of Lincoln's Prison camps was Elmira, located in New York a few miles from the Pennsylvania line. Some 12,000 prisoners were confined to a camp meant to hold only 5,000. Two observation towers were built outside the prison walls. For fifteen cents, spectators could watch the prisoners suffering within the compound.
    Requests for badly needed medicines were ignored by officials in Washington. The prison earned the nickname "Helmira" as nearly 3,000 of the 12,000 prisoners (25%) died of starvation, mistreatment or disease...

    ABRAHAM LINCOLN: AMERICA'S GREATEST WAR CRIMINAL
    Abraham Lincoln should without a doubt be named America’s greatest war criminal. His war of invasion not only killed over 600,000 innocent Americans but it was obvious from his earlier speeches that he had previously advocated the prevalent constitutional right of democratic, state by state secession. Lincoln’s War also effectively overthrew the existing decentralized, limited federal government that had existed and governed well in the US since established by America’s founding fathers. Lincoln bastardized a respected federal government with limited powers into a dictatorial, uncontrollable Washington federal empire.
    Because of Lincoln, the former American constitutional republic fell from a dream of liberty and limited government into the nightmare big government we have today without the earlier checks and balances of state sovereignty. After Lincoln, In foreign policy, the US forgot George Washington’s warning about neutrality and we became an aggressive military abroad until today we have troops defending the Washington Empire in over 144 nations around the world.
    "The great rule of conduct for us, in regard to foreign nations is, in extending our commercial relations to have with them as little political connections as possible. It is our true policy to steer clear of permanent alliances, with any portion of the foreign world." - George Washington ...
    Read More At...
    http://www.usacarry.com/forums/polit...tml#post205802
    And...
    Presidential Executive Orders

    Unconstitutional Martial Law Precedent in the U.S.? Abe Lincoln set it...
    Major-General H. W. HALLECK, Commanding in the Department of Missouri.
    GENERAL: As an insurrection exists in the United States and is in arms in the State of Missouri, you are hereby authorized and empowered to suspend the writ of habeas corpus within the limits of the military division under your command and to exercise martial law as you find it necessary, in your discretion, to secure the public safety and the authority of the United States.
    In witness whereof I have hereunto set my hand and caused the seal of the United States to be affixed, at Washington, this 2d day of
    December, A. D. 1861.
    ABRAHAM LINCOLN.
    By the President:
    WILLIAM H. SEWARD.
    Secretary of State.

    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

  4. #123
    Need more about so-called Honest Abe Lincoln? and why he is Barack Obama's (in his own words) favorite predecessor? Notwithstanding, the first RINO.

    Honest Abe was given the nickname by his political enemies because of his hypocrisy...
    Much like we might call our giant friend "Tiny" ...

    How many know of Abe Lincoln's relationship with Karl Marx?
    Marx's letter to Abraham Lincoln

    How many people know that most of Congress resigned when Lincoln invaded the south unconstitutionally; and most of them were from the North.?

    The Civil War Was Not Fought Over Slavery...
    Lincoln brutally violated nearly every article and amendment to the U.S. Constitution, throwing over 35,000 Northern Citizens in prison as political prisoners, including state legislators, without cause or trial, as well as, violently closing a dozen opposition newspapers and suppressing freedom of speech...
    Slavery

    The Lincoln War Crimes Trial: A History Lesson

    The list of indictments was long:


    • Violation of the Constitution and his oath of office by invading and waging war against states that had legally and democratically withdrawn their consent from his government, inaugurating one of the cruelest wars in recent history.
    • Subverting the duly constituted governments of states that had not left the Union, thereby subverting their constitution right to "republican form of government."
    • Raising troops without the approval of Congress and expending funds without appropriation.
    • Suspending the writ of habeas corpus and interfering with the press without due process, imprisoning thousands of citizens without charge or trial, and closing courts by military force where no hostilities were occurring.
    • Corrupting the currency by manipulations and paper swindles unheard of in previous UShistory.
    • Fraud and corruption by appointees and contractors with his knowledge and connivance.
    • Continuing the war by raising ever-larger bodies of troops by conscription and hiring of foreign mercenaries and refusing to negotiate in good faith for an end to hostilities.
    • Confiscation of millions of dollars of property by his agents in the South, especially cotton, without legal proceedings.
    • Waging war against women and children and civilian property as the matter of policy (rather than as unavoidably incident to combat). (General Sherman and others were called to testify as to their operations and the source of their orders.)

    ...Among papers found with Union General Sherman were plans from the Lincoln government for a war of terrorism to be waged systematically against women and children in the South. These included detailed instructions, with illustrations for the soldiers. Houses were to be pillaged and then burned, along with all farm buildings and tools and standing crops. Livestock was to be killed or carried away and food confiscated or destroyed.

    Particular emphasis was laid on destruction's of family heirlooms – pictures of dead loved ones, Bibles, wedding dresses, and pianos. There were also directions as to how to persuade, or coerce if persuasion failed, black servants into divulging the whereabouts of hidden valuables.

    The revelation of these papers shocked the world and played a significant part in the later war crimes trail of Lincoln. Sherman had issued additional orders, urging his soldiers to "make the damned traitorous rebel women and children howl." At his trial later, Sherman defended himself. His actions had been called for, he said, because Americans had too much freedom and needed to be brought under obedience to government like Europeans. The trial of the United States vs. Sherman resulted in a famous precedent-setting verdict of not guilty by reason of insanity...

    ..About the time the war crimes trial ended, General Lee was inaugurated as the second President of the Confederate States. Speaking by the statue of Washington on the capitol grounds at Richmond, he described the first recommendations he would send to Congress. The Southern people had been deeply moved by the loyalty and shared suffering of most of their black servant population during the war. It was time to fulfill the hopes of the Southern Founders of American liberty. He called for a plan that would provide freedom, at the age of maturity, along with land or training in a skilled trade, for all slaves born after a date to be set...
    Read More At:
    The Lincoln War Crimes Trial: A History Lesson

    In short, contrary to what the history written by the victors have mislead us to believe; the
    Civil War was not about slavery; it was about Lincoln's refusal to allow states to exercise their Constitutionally protected right to individual state sovereignty...

    Like the Revolutionary War it was also about Taxation without Representation...

    The Confederate States of America even offered to free all Southern slaves in return for independence; Lincoln refused the offer.

    At the end of the War, a few weeks before Lincoln was assassinated, Union General Benjamin Butler asked him what he was going to do
    with all the recently free Southern Blacks. To this Lincoln replied, "I think we should deport them all."...

    Lincoln made the Civil War about slavery to gain support for a unconstitutional war on fellow Americans he started...

    The War for Southern Independence was fought over the right of the local people to govern themselves versus a centralist
    government by the few, the rich, and the powerful. The South wanted less government, less taxes, independence, and decisions
    made at the local level where the people have control. The North wanted more taxes, more government, and centralism, with a
    compulsory union at bayonet point and decisions made in Washington D.C. rather than by the local people. The South stood
    on the principles of the Southerner Thomas Jefferson, who in the Declaration of Independence, stated, "Governments are
    instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government
    becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government." In
    other words, the people should control the government, not the government controlling the people.

    Time to reboot the Constitution folks and take back the Constitutional Republic we were founded as...
    NoBama, No RINOs 2012


    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Bohemian View Post
    How many people know that most of Congress resigned when Lincoln invaded the south unconstitutionally; and most of them were from the North.?

    [LIST][*] Violation of the Constitution and his oath of office by invading and waging war against states that had legally and democratically withdrawn their consent from his government, inaugurating one of the cruelest wars in recent history.
    Those two things are completely false. "unconstitutionally invaded" assumes that your #1 is true, which it isn't. The states do not have a right to secede from the US.

    The war wasn't initially about slavery, no, but it was about protecting the rights of all Americans in the long term.

  6. #125
    The Articles of Confederation

    Agreed to by Congress November 15, 1777; ratified and in force, March 1, 1781.

    Article II. Each state retains its sovereignty, freedom, and independence, and every Power, Jurisdiction, and right, which is not by this confederation expressly delegated to the United States, in Congress assembled.

    The Articles of Confederation - The U.S. Constitution Online - USConstitution.net

    Among the Founding Fathers there was no doubt. The United States had just seceded from the British Empire, exercising the right of the people to “alter or abolish” — by force, if necessary — a despotic government. The Declaration of Independence is the most famous act of secession in our history, though modern rhetoric makes “secession” sound somehow different from, and more sinister than, claiming independence.

    Declaration of Independence in part...
    That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security...

    Nowhere in the Constitution is there any mention of the union of the states being permanent. This was not an oversight by any means. Indeed, when New York, Rhode Island, and Virginia ratified the Constitution, they specifically stated that they reserved the right to resume the governmental powers granted to the United States. Their claim to the right of secession was understood and agreed to by the other ratifiers, including George Washington, who presided over the Constitutional Convention and was also a delegate from Virginia. In his book Life of Webster Sen. Henry Cabot Lodge writes, "It is safe to say that there was not a man in the country, from Washington and Hamilton to Clinton and Mason, who did not regard the new system as an experiment from which each and every State had a right to peaceably withdraw." A textbook used at West Point before the Civil War, A View of the Constitution, written by Judge William Rawle, states, "The secession of a State depends on the will of the people of such a State." http://www.constitution.org/wr/rawle_32.htm

    The Constitution itself is silent (without the bill of rights to clarify) on the subject, but since secession was an established right, it didn’t have to be reaffirmed. More telling still, even the bitterest opponents of the Constitution never accused it of denying the right of secession. Three states ratified the Constitution with the provision that they could later secede if they chose; the other ten states accepted this condition as valid.

    The original 13 states formed a “Confederation,” under which each state retained its “sovereignty, freedom, and independence.” The Constitution didn’t change this; each sovereign state was free to reject the Constitution. The new powers of the federal government were “granted” and “delegated” by the states, which implies that the states were prior and superior to the federal government.

    If the states had no inherent right to secede, why would the framers have been so adamant that the the key tenet of the Constitutional Republic we were founded as was to be able to remove/replace a tyrannical government?

    Even in The Federalist papers, the brilliant papers for ratification of the Constitution (largely written by Alexander Hamilton and James Madison), the United States are constantly referred to as “the Confederacy” and “a confederate republic,” as opposed to a single “consolidated” or monolithic state. Members of a “confederacy” are by definition free to withdraw from it...
    Sobran Column -- The Right to Secede

    Then we have the 10th Amendment...
    " The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people."

    Therein is the coup de grāce ...
    The states have not been prohibited from secession by the constitution nor has the federal government been delegated control over it...

    Between 2009-2010 14 states passed State sovereignty resolutions, asserting this...
    Tenth Amendment Center

    Implementing the Tenth Amendment:
    State Sovereignty Resolution
    by Colorado State Senator Charles Duke

    Implementing the Tenth Amendment: State Sovereignty Resolution

    That is the timeless wisdom of the framers in making the bill of rights as unambiguous as possible; and as SCOTUS has concurred many times; if it is not specifically prohibited IT IS ALLOWED...

    They mean what they say, no more, no less...

    That is why we need to continue to fight for the restoration of the Unabridged Second Amendment...

    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

  7. FindLaw's Writ - Dorf: Does the Constitution Permit the Blue States to Secede?

    "As I will explain below, it is settled law that the Constitution does not permit unilateral secession: A state or group of states cannot simply leave the Union over the objections of the national government. However, the arguments that led to this settled understanding are hardly unassailable, and the Constitution is probably best read as permitting the mutually agreed upon departure of one or more states."

    The Constitution allows "mutually agreed separation" not secession.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by cawpin View Post
    FindLaw's Writ - Dorf: Does the Constitution Permit the Blue States to Secede?

    "As I will explain below, it is settled law that the Constitution does not permit unilateral secession: A state or group of states cannot simply leave the Union over the objections of the national government. However, the arguments that led to this settled understanding are hardly unassailable, and the Constitution is probably best read as permitting the mutually agreed upon departure of one or more states."

    The Constitution allows "mutually agreed separation" not secession.
    Guess you missed Professor Dorf's further statement that in Texas v. White... After finding against a state's right of unilateral secession, the Court acknowledged an exception for secession "through revolution, or through consent of the States."

    And... The Constitution says nothing about secession. And under the Tenth Amendment, silence in such matters means there is no federal power: Powers not enumerated "are reserved to the states respectively, or to the people."

    The First Fundamental Principle of Constitutional Interpretation: Your Rights Don't Come From Government By Stewart Rhodes:
    Oath Keepers: CONSTITUTIONAL REPUBLIC 101: YOUR RIGHTS DON’T COME FROM GOVERNMENT

    It appears that you neither read Professor Dorf's thesis nor the plethora of primary source citations I provided in their entirety...

    Professor Dorf's work that you have cited is his Conjecture...

    He further states (also conjecture) that no court has or probably will rule on states right of secession other than the way it was ruled by the Supreme Court in Texas v. White. A post Civil War Case BTW. Texas v. White - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Texas v. White, 74 U.S. 700 (1869)

    A far-cry from Professor Dorf's settled law hyperbole...

    How did they rule on States right to secede and sovereignty ? in Layman's terms... The North Won & Forced the South to Re-Join the Union at Gun-Point; so succession must be unconstitutional unless BIG BROTHER agrees to it absolutely ludicrous IMHO (what recourse could we ever have from a tyrannical government?)... despite the fact that virtually everything Lincoln did with regards to the Civil War was unconstitutional... even by his own admission when he was tried for War Crimes... in plain english Lincoln admitted violating the constitution for the so-called public good...
    Notwithstanding, the SCOTUS that wrote the Texas v. White opinion was loyal to Lincoln before the war started and many were appointed by Lincoln; including Chief Justice Salmon Chase who delivered it... (5 of the 8 member 1869 court were appointed by Lincoln)

    In the opinion, Chief Justice Salmon Chase virtually disregards everything that the framers held dear; namely that this country was created out of secession from a overbearing, tyrannical Government without the checks & balances of the States & WE THE PEOPLE; Lincoln created by trampling the Constitution... The very notion of a "Indissoluble relation." formed by a State Joining the Union; Justice Chase infers that States & WE THE PEOPLE have no recourse to oppose a tyrannical government if the government disagrees... The very thing Thomas Jefferson so clearly delineated in the Declaration of Independence...

    Virtually every right that the federal government and the state governments have for that matter are on loan from WE THE PEOPLE...
    The Federal Government was loaned the least amount of powers by the constitution & the states a little more...
    Since Lincolns trampling of the Constitution the Federal Government has been perverted to have the most power, the States in close second and virtually nothing for WE THE PEOPLE but what the Fed & States allow us... something that does not even remotely resemble the Constitutional Republic we were founded as.

    I am going to leave it at that and I am going to agree to disagree with your conjecture that States do not have the right to secession and State Sovereignty from the Federal Government...
    In order to get back to the topic of this thread... Who do you like for President/Vice-President in 2012?
    If you would like to debate the topic further please start your own thread of something along the lines of "Do States Have The Right To Secession & State Sovereignty"? and I and I am sure many others would gladly participate therein...

    peace.

    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Icewind View Post
    Being a Arizonian and a Navy vet, I voted McCain and Palin last time. This time around I'm not voting. I don't think any of these dopes will do any good so I refuse to waste my vote. Nobody running is qualified to run their state or seat, much less this country.

    I mean, the Donald, Romney (who loses 4 years, needs to go away), Newt can't even hold his own team together, Ron Paul?? who?. Palin is the only one who might get me off the couch
    Why waste your vote? At the least you should vote against Obama!!

  10. Bo, somewhere I read a long time ago, and maybe you can find it for me, that honest Abe wanted to send ALL the slaves BACK to Africa, but at the time it was going to cost about 500,000 thousand dollars. The funds were not available and he chooses not to do it. Maybe that is why the Mac Daady adores him sooooo much.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."Frederic Bastia

  11. Sorry, not trying hyjack, just enjoying this topic.
    "When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it."Frederic Bastia

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