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  1. #41
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    This is in response to CathyInBlue's entry:

    The only thing the constitution says about religion is the First Amendment: "...shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof..." This does not mean that the government can't establish a religion; just that they can't make a law about it. And it appears to me that prohibiting religion displays anywhere would prohibit "...the free exercise thereof..." In other words, I can't force you to follow my religion, and you can't force me to follow no religion. By the way, disctionary.com says that devout is "devoted to divine worship or service; pious; religious: a devout Catholic." So you're defining yourself as a religious non-religious person. Makes sense.

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  3. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyInBlue View Post
    I have a problem with not following the letter of the Constitution, which prohibits government from establishing any religion, which having an overtly religious display on government property does. I'm sorry if you can't understand this.
    The constitution does not prevent the government from establishing a religion; just with passing a law requiring that people attend services.

  4. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by jameshd View Post
    The constitution does not prevent the government from establishing a religion; just with passing a law requiring that people attend services.
    Actually, the 1st Amendment does prevent the US Government from establishing a religion. Thomas Jefferson, 3rd president of the US said this:

    Quote Originally Posted by Thomas Jefferson
    Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, [the people, in the 1st Amendment,] declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state.

    ... no man shall be compelled to frequent or support any religious worship, place, or ministry whatsoever, nor shall be enforced, restrained, molested, or burthened in his body or goods, nor shall otherwise suffer, on account of his religious opinions or belief; but that all men shall be free to profess, and by argument to maintain, their opinions in matters of religion, and that the same shall in no wise diminish, enlarge, or affect their civil capacities.
    It was not just the courts, although the courts have muddied the waters significantly. In 1947 the US Supreme Court had to define religion:

    Quote Originally Posted by US Supreme Court
    The word 'religion' is not defined in the Constitution. We must go elsewhere, therefore, to ascertain its meaning, and nowhere more appropriately, we think, than to the history of the times in the midst of which the provision was adopted. The precise point of the inquiry is, what is the religious freedom which has been guaranteed.
    They found the definition in a Virginia Amendment, written by Thomas Jefferson.

    The founding fathers put the words in the Constitution:

    Quote Originally Posted by Legal Dictionary
    Main Entry: es·tab·lish
    Function: transitive verb
    1 : to institute (as a law) permanently by enactment or agreement
    When the federal government creates something, such as a new department, division, committee, whatever, it is written in law. The government cannot (except Obama) create government entities without laws to back them up. Therefore, to create a national religion would mean creating through law. in other words unconstitutionally.

    All of this was found at USConstitution.net.

    That being said, I appreciated OldGrunt humor, and thought it was funny as hell.

  5. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgrunt View Post
    AND YOU ARE A TRUE AMERICAN, IF YOU THINK THE NATIONAL ANTHEM SHOULD ONLY BE SUNG: IN ENGLISH!!
    I heard the words are being changed. A small sample...

    Jose can you see, by the dawn's early light.
    Oh so proudly we bailed, as the riverboat started leaking.
    To the country we come, with coyotes that help.
    As we swim the Rio Grande, faster than Michael Phelps.

    And the ATF agent swears, as he shoots in the air.
    Gave proof through the night, that we shoudn't be here.

    Jose does that border still call out your name.
    For the land of the free... and the home... of the... lame.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by CathyInBlue View Post
    Funny. I thought the elitists were the ones setting the definition for who is and who is not one of the chosen, the special, the elite. A thread predicated on who is and who is NOT a "real" America would fit that bill far, far more efficiently than anything I have said. I never claimed to be "better" than anyone else here. In fact, it was a point of taking one of the points mentioned in the original list and running with it, showing just how much of a "real" American a devout Atheist is also.

    I don't put myself above anyone, but neither do I allow others to put me under themselves by threatening me with torment in their own idea of an afterlife, claiming that I'm a lesser being than them, that I must be sad, that my life must be lacking because I don't believe in their imaginary friend. Attempting to put someone down like that, especially if it is then claimed it's some form of proselytizing intended to raise them up, that is the antithesis of what a "real" American is. That is elitism.
    Ahhhh, but the consitituion says they can torment you with their idea of an afterlife. just as the constitution prohibits the government from endorsing any one religion it must recognize atheism as a religion of null, subject to it's own interpretations, definitions and the infliction of it's beliefs on those who believe in a God... any God. What I'm saying is that if someone doesn't want to see a religous symbol, simply turn your head. If you don't want to hear a blessing for the drivers before a NASCAR event then go get a beer. People shouldn't push atheism and then complain that others are pushing a religion. However, no one should hold judgement on you for your beliefs. It doesn't make you a lesser person unless you allow it to.

    For the atheists out there... for your own sake I hope you're right. Otherwise there will be hell to pay.

    For the rest of us? Let's all exercise our first amendment right and put up a religous symbol just to aggravate atheists.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  7. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rabbitcreekok View Post
    The First Amendment says:
    "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;....."

    There is nothing that speaks to separation of church and state or that any display of religion cannot occur on any governmental grounds or activities. The Supreme Court has added that in their reckless changes to the Constitution.

    That amendment was added in response to the English being required to belong to the Church of England. Nowhere has anyone tried to establish a state sponsored religion in the US, but the aforementioned Supreme Court has gone far in the other direction.
    Very astute. Separation of church and state was a phrase coined by Thomas Jefferson in 1802. It is not a constitutional provision.

    Jefferson wrote a letter to the Danbury Baptist Association in 1802 to answer a letter from them written in October 1801. The Danbury Baptists were a religious minority in Connecticut, and they complained that in their state, the religious liberties they enjoyed were not seen as immutable rights, but as privileges granted by the legislature — as "favors granted." Jefferson's reply addressed their concerns using the phrase "wall of separation between church and state," which led to the short-hand for the Establishment Clause that we use today: "Separation of church and state."
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  8. #47
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    What many people don't realize is that the very laws that govern this country, civil and criminal, are generally derived from English common law, which was generally derived from religous teachings. Read the Bible and then read your state penal code and any book on civil torts.

    Thou shall not steal (Burglary, robbery, embezzelment - penal)
    Thou shall not murder (Homicide - penal)
    Thou shall not covet thy neighbors wife (Alienation of affection - civil)
    Thou shall not lie (Obstruction, libel, slander, defamation, etc. - penal & civil)
    Thou shall not bear false witness (Perjury penal)

    There are more than ten commandments. Each is tried daily in America's courts. Even Islam incorporates sharia law into penal codes.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  9. Wow! Everyone on this thread has blown the op way out of context. All it says is a true American is respectful. Regardless of their own beliefs. And respect what this country was founded on. That's it!!

  10. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by BeauRyker View Post
    We won't expect you to join in.....but don't expect us to not pray.
    I wouldn't dream of it. If that's what makes you happy. It is your constitutional right. But, I'm curious; does the deity that you pray to, answer your prayers?
    "The 2nd amendment was never intended to allow private citizens to 'keep and bear arms'. If it had, there would have been wording such as 'the right of the People to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed'." -- Ken Konecki on Usenet, on 27 Jul 1992

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by weekendskp View Post
    I wouldn't dream of it. If that's what makes you happy. It is your constitutional right. But, I'm curious; does the deity that you pray to, answer your prayers?
    In a word... YES! Three heart surgeries later.

    What does one pray for? To give thanks for one's life, family and children, for waking this morning, for the strength to get through another day, for the ability to support one's family, for guidance, etc. NEVER for one's self. Only for others.

    For some people it's not God but nature they prey to. They awake with the wondement of life and thank the natural world for their existence and good fortune?????
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

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