Should a convicted felon be allowed to carry firearm - Page 9
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Thread: Should a convicted felon be allowed to carry firearm

  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by cmhbob View Post
    Well, if all we do is lock them up without treating the underlying issues, then yeah, you're right.

    Many prisons are nothing more than warehouses with less than lip-service paid to "rehabilitation." Until we change that, the results aren't going to change, and that reminds of something Freud said.
    I began my career in the criminal justice system in the Mass. Dept of Corrections in the 1970s as a "Correction Counselor"...a nice liberal prison system with a strong emphasis on "rehabilitation". I moved on to the Mass State Police, the US Marshal's Service and finally, my last few years, the Federal Bureau of Prisons...retiring in 2000. My first "big" promotion came when I took over the furlough and work release programs in the wake of the Willie Horton "episode"...I was Mike Dukakis' "token conservative" for a period of time. I got my MPA during this period with a thesis on the use of prison industry as both a budgetary measure and an avenue to provide job skills that would allow an inmate to "reintegrate" into society.

    During the entire 20+ years, I never saw any rehabilitation program with significant success...or any way to tell with any confidence whether a criminal was "rehabilitated" or not...parole based on conduct in prison or attainment of educational/skill building goals remains pretty much a crap shoot. There are some successes with individual inmates (usually those who do not have a prior criminal history before the crime for which they are sentenced), but recidivism rates overall remain effectively unchanged.

    I am not sure how much contact/experience you might have with sociopathic personalities, but they make up a large portion of habitual criminals and are extremely difficult to identify until it is too late. In general, they are very facile liars and natural roleplayers. They can sometimes be identified using tests like the MMPI, but people who are unusually "thoughtful" and insightful will frequently throw a false positive on the sociopath scale.

    My point is that rehabilitation appears to work far more frequently than it actually does in systems that are focused on it. There are also budgetary issues involved in getting staffing that will be even moderately effective in determinig effectiveness in individual cases. The people, who feel (justifiably, IMO) overtaxed are generally unwilling to pay the premium for hiring professionals not dedicated to the "idea" of rehabilitation...as a result staff tends to be either undereducated or heavily invested emotionally in showing that rehabilitation programs work to the point that they see what they want to see.

    In the end, the people who are "rehabilitated" are mostly the people who are the most unlikely to reoffend in the first place...those who have not yet become members of the "criminal culture". The major positive effect is to assist those people in not becoming a part of that culture.

    I apologize to the OP for taking this so far afield, but a couple of buttons that I thought I had blocked apparently can still be pushed.

    I'll stop now and leave the discussion to return to the original topic.

    Pax

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  3. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by Panheadzz View Post
    BC1 I have just read a portion of this thread and have come to the conclusion that you must have the control of a saint. Given your situation I know I would be in prison now for murder. No doubt about it.
    Yes, self control is key, for your own good. Many USA Carry posters take my PP classes and learn of this story when we discuss the standard of the reasonable person (justification of defense - use of force). I've periodically seen this guy over the years. He once spouted off some religous ravings to me. Couldn't help myself. Beat him down badly. DA would not prosecute me, determining that my actions were within the scope of the reasonable person. We were advised to take whatever action is necessary to protect ourselves as this guy is nutso.

    There is no reform for the sociopath. The killer's own quote to the newspaper was, "I wouldn't say that I'm reformed, because as a person, you're bad to begin with. So how can you go back to being bad?" This should resonate loudly with those who think rehabilitation is possible.

    This was my wife's little brother (9-years-old). We were tasked with raising him. We were to be his surrogate parents. He was found by my wife on the farm property, still alive but molested and stabbed 22 times (chest, neck, genitals). He died in her arms on the way to the hospital. He was my little buddy and mischief-maker. Hang on to those kids. Never let them out of your sight. Some pretty bad people have been released by society.

    Read one article from 2004. It will give you the chills --> Neighbors blind to killer's past | recordonline.com
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  4. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaxMentis View Post
    In the end, the people who are "rehabilitated" are mostly the people who are the most unlikely to reoffend in the first place...those who have not yet become members of the "criminal culture". The major positive effect is to assist those people in not becoming a part of that culture.

    I apologize to the OP for taking this so far afield, but a couple of buttons that I thought I had blocked apparently can still be pushed.

    I'll stop now and leave the discussion to return to the original topic.

    Pax
    Pax, hope I didn't push any of those buttons. I certainly didn't mean to. At any rate, I think it's been a good thread, and I don't think we've drifted all that far off. The OP is about felons recovering a right, and we've been discussing why they should or shouldn't, based on our own life experiences.

    I guess my biggest issue is that it's an automatic lifetime ban for every felon, and I don't think that's right, any more than I think it's right to ban certain types of guns because they're used more in crimes. I don't understand why non-violent offenders should lose RKBA. In theory, one can petition BATFE for restoration, but we all know they don't do it, claiming they don't have the budget for it. I'd rather like to see rights automatically restored perhaps a year after completion of post-release control, assuming no more offenses have occurred.

    Ah well. I've pretty much said my piece here, and I'm sure some are yelling at their screens for me to STHU.
    Bob Mueller
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  5. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by cmhbob View Post
    Pax, hope I didn't push any of those buttons. I certainly didn't mean to. At any rate, I think it's been a good thread, and I don't think we've drifted all that far off. The OP is about felons recovering a right, and we've been discussing why they should or shouldn't, based on our own life experiences.

    I guess my biggest issue is that it's an automatic lifetime ban for every felon, and I don't think that's right, any more than I think it's right to ban certain types of guns because they're used more in crimes. I don't understand why non-violent offenders should lose RKBA. In theory, one can petition BATFE for restoration, but we all know they don't do it, claiming they don't have the budget for it. I'd rather like to see rights automatically restored perhaps a year after completion of post-release control, assuming no more offenses have occurred.

    Ah well. I've pretty much said my piece here, and I'm sure some are yelling at their screens for me to STHU.
    Not to worry Bob...regardless of how they got pushed, all they do is cause me to get up on my soapbox about the criminal justice (or "just us") system. I learned long ago that my perspective on the subject fits neither traditional conservative or liberal philosophy, so it is usually not received well by either group.

    Remember also that I am a "constitutional carry" kind of guy who really doesn't trust the government (probably from working for them too long) enough to want them to have the power to tell anyone they can or cannot own or carry a gun. Yet I have no problem with the government killing folks who have been convicted by a jury of their peers...not for punishment or as an example to others, but just to get them out of the society in which my kids and grandkids live.

  6. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by tcox4freedom:235471
    I think once a man has "COMPLETELY" paid his debt to society, rights should be restored.

    Think about it like this:

    If "you" had to use your firearm in SD, and were wrongly convicted of manslaughter by some libtard jury/judge, Would "you" want your rights restored after you served your time?
    As opposed to a conservatard?

  7. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by PaxMentis View Post
    I began my career in the criminal justice system in the Mass. Dept of Corrections in the 1970s as a "Correction Counselor"...a nice liberal prison system with a strong emphasis on "rehabilitation". I moved on to the Mass State Police, the US Marshal's Service and finally, my last few years, the Federal Bureau of Prisons...retiring in 2000. My first "big" promotion came when I took over the furlough and work release programs in the wake of the Willie Horton "episode"...I was Mike Dukakis' "token conservative" for a period of time. I got my MPA during this period with a thesis on the use of prison industry as both a budgetary measure and an avenue to provide job skills that would allow an inmate to "reintegrate" into society.

    During the entire 20+ years, I never saw any rehabilitation program with significant success...or any way to tell with any confidence whether a criminal was "rehabilitated" or not...parole based on conduct in prison or attainment of educational/skill building goals remains pretty much a crap shoot. There are some successes with individual inmates (usually those who do not have a prior criminal history before the crime for which they are sentenced), but recidivism rates overall remain effectively unchanged.

    I am not sure how much contact/experience you might have with sociopathic personalities, but they make up a large portion of habitual criminals and are extremely difficult to identify until it is too late. In general, they are very facile liars and natural roleplayers. They can sometimes be identified using tests like the MMPI, but people who are unusually "thoughtful" and insightful will frequently throw a false positive on the sociopath scale.

    My point is that rehabilitation appears to work far more frequently than it actually does in systems that are focused on it. There are also budgetary issues involved in getting staffing that will be even moderately effective in determinig effectiveness in individual cases. The people, who feel (justifiably, IMO) overtaxed are generally unwilling to pay the premium for hiring professionals not dedicated to the "idea" of rehabilitation...as a result staff tends to be either undereducated or heavily invested emotionally in showing that rehabilitation programs work to the point that they see what they want to see.

    In the end, the people who are "rehabilitated" are mostly the people who are the most unlikely to reoffend in the first place...those who have not yet become members of the "criminal culture". The major positive effect is to assist those people in not becoming a part of that culture.

    I apologize to the OP for taking this so far afield, but a couple of buttons that I thought I had blocked apparently can still be pushed.

    I'll stop now and leave the discussion to return to the original topic.

    Pax
    That was a very concise and insightful report, I thank you for that.

  8. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by the dark View Post
    As opposed to a conservatard?
    Most conservatives I know believe in a convicted felon serving their entire sentence. It's the "libtards" that piss & moan about letting criminals walk because of some sad story about the poor criminals life.

    Like I said in earlier post, IMHO, certain crimes like murder, rape & child molestation deserve the DEATH penalty. (I challenge you to find one libtard to back that up.)

    I know many "conservatives' like myself that would like to see tougher sentences on such heinous crimes. I don't know of one single libtard that would.

  9. I am not at all surprised that this has been discussed civilly. Though we have a wide scope of opinions, most if not all of us are gun owners. None of us see the gun itself as the base issue, just the degree to which an offender can again be trusted to have it. I do know 1 person with long prison record, habitual felon, that I would ttrust, after another few years of remaining free of crack. His life is a sad & complicated story but I do not see him as a predator upon society as many others are. I have a less merciful opinion of some other offenders I have known.

  10. #89
    I wish people would quit using terms like "Libtard" and "Teabags" or worse monikers. Some may think the way people talk to each other on the Jerry Springer show is normal but it's not. Not for civilized people in a civilized country. Just because somebdoy has an opinion one doesn't like does not entitle anyone to spew this stuff. When I read all the hateful things left and right direct at one another I am worried about this country.

  11. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by jg1967 View Post
    I wish people would quit using terms like "Libtard" and "Teabags" or worse monikers. Some may think the way people talk to each other on the Jerry Springer show is normal but it's not. Not for civilized people in a civilized country. Just because somebdoy has an opinion one doesn't like does not entitle anyone to spew this stuff. When I read all the hateful things left and right direct at one another I am worried about this country.
    I couldn't agree more.

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