What is required to purchase a Rifle? - Page 2
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Thread: What is required to purchase a Rifle?

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Jon View Post
    You can buy a used one from a private owner with no paperwork at all.
    Even better. However, I would only recommend doing this from someone you know and trust. Doing this from someone you do not know could mean that the person is simply trying to pass off a stolen or illegal firearm on you, and if it is ever discovered, you would be the culprit. Just something to keep in mind.

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  3. #12
    From "Instructions to Transferor/Seller" on ATF form 4473 (the long ol' background check form) subsection 2:

    "Sale of Firearms to Legal Aliens (Part 1): A buyer who is not a citizen of the United States must provide additional documentation (beyond a valid government-issued photo identification that contains the buyer's name, residence address, and date of birth) to establish that he or she has resided in a State continuously for at least 90 days immediately prior to the date of the sale. See definition 7. Examples of appropriate documents to establish State residency are utility bills from each of the last 3 months immediately prior to the sale or a lease agreement which demonstrates 90 days of residency immediately prior to the sale."

    Definition 7:
    "State of Residence: The State in which an individual resides. An individual resides in a State if he or she is present in a State with the intention of making a home in that State. (skipping some non related material here) . . . An alien who is legally in the United States is a resident of a State only if the alien is residing in the State and has resided in the State continuously for at least 90 ndays immediately prior to the date of sale or delivery of a firearm."

    From Important Notices #4:
    "Generally, 18 U.S.C 922 (the Brady Law) prohibits the shipment, transportation, receipt, or possession in or affecting interstate commerce of a firearm by one who: (skipping more non related material . . . ) has renounced his or her U.S. citizenship; is an alien illegally in the United States or a nonimmigrant alien; or is subject to certain restraining orders.

    EXCEPTION 2: A nonimmigrant alien is not prohibited from purchasing, receiving, or possessing a firearm if the alien: (1) is in possession of a hunting license or permit lawfully issued in the United States; or (2) has received a waiver from the prohibition from the Attorney General of the United States."

    Definitions #8:
    "Nonimmigrant Alien: An alien in the United States in a nonimmigrant classification. The definition includes, in large part, persons traveling temporarily in the United States for business or pleasure, persons studying in the United States who maintain a residence abroad, and certain foreign workers. The definition does NOT include permanent resident aliens."

    SO, if you are not a citizen of the US, but a legal alien, the store is in it's rights and actually required by the ATF to ask for additional proof of residency. If you are a resident of the US, none of the above references apply to you and you should only need a valid Drivers License or CWP with proof of age.

    Hope that helps some.
    Last edited by mom of 3 angels; 07-29-2008 at 08:07 PM. Reason: spelling

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    Even better. However, I would only recommend doing this from someone you know and trust. Doing this from someone you do not know could mean that the person is simply trying to pass off a stolen or illegal firearm on you, and if it is ever discovered, you would be the culprit. Just something to keep in mind.
    In this situation (some have other opinions) as either buyer or seller I would get the contact information for the other party in case the ATF ever comes looking for that particular firearm (it was used in a crime, etc.) you can give them the information on where you got it or to whom you sold it.

  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by 1911Jon View Post
    You can buy a used one from a private owner with no paperwork at all.
    The above posts have given good advice about documenting a private firearm transfer. I usually make sure we trade driver's license information (including DL number) as that can provide the paper trail authorities may ask for in case the firearm needs to be tracked.

    However, the private transfer with no paperwork does NOT apply in all states. I can do a private transfer here in NV no problem, but just a few miles away in CA all transfers must go through an FFL dealer. Make sure you follow the laws of your state in addition to Federal law.
    People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome.--River Tam

  6. #15
    Join Date
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    Still don't know what state this took place in?

    Mom's info on the 4473 states a lot. Here in South Florida it is now pretty standard to apply the "non-citizen" standards to everyone just to be safe.

    WM may be doing the same thing where ever you are. That way when you present a DL they later can't be jammed up that you were a resident alien but they didn't get the paperwork even though you signed you were a citizen.

    Just covering their ass perhaps so I would not worry about it.

  7. Thanks for all the feedback.

    This is in the Great State of Texas.


    Ill look at some of the ATF stuff. I still havent found a particular piece of legislation that says specifically what is required to purchase a long arm (ie a Driver License, utility bill, etc).

    I agree that the salesman shouldnt have asked for the utility bill, but rather than bring it directly under a USC 1981 cause of action (which would be tough to prevail on), I was hoping I could find the law that says whats required for purchase.

    Thanks for all the feedback. If you have anything else, please feel free to share.

  8. #17
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    I sincerely doubt that you would have a cause of action.

    Since the 4473 (the requirement to transfer a long gun) does list presentation of a utility bill as one of the possible additional presentations for a non-citizen, unless you presented some other form of proof of citizenship such a passport, I do not see where a store would be violating your rights to follow the non-citizen proceedure even as a citizen.

    The courts have been pretty tough on employers, retailers, etc for not obtaining ABSOLUTE proof of citizenship and have pretty much said that saying I am a citizen and even signing it on a form is no longer enough.

    Big companies like WalMart are willing to take the chance in offending you rather than take a chance with ATF. I think Texas stores think like Florida and California... it is way too much a chance and they train their clerks to always require the non-citizen requirements.

    Don't like it, shop someplace else. Want to go for dicrimination ... hope you have a really packed wallet.

  9. Good stuff. Thanks!

  10. #19
    Another thing is an FFL dealer is not required to sell to anyone, regardless of what documentation they provide. There is no part of the process that says if a buyer provides documents A, B, and C, the dealer must transfer the firearm. My ATF guys told me that ultimately it is the dealer's decision to transfer the firearm to the buyer or not and even just not feeling right about it is justification to not complete the transfer/sale.

  11. #20
    That is Bloomberg's justification in suing the gun dealers. His point was that even though the buyer provided all the documentaion the dealers should have read thier minds and known that it was a straw purchase therefore not sold the guns.

    You are orrect that a dealer doesn't have to sell if it doesn't feel right according to the ATF. Then the ACLU and civil rights groups get involved.

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