Is Mental Heath really an Issue?
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Thread: Is Mental Heath really an Issue?

  1. #1

    Is Mental Heath really an Issue?

    As Second Amendment supporters celebrate a victory yesterday, I began thinking more about each side's goals and narrative, and right now, I can't align to either. Those that support the current gun control narrative are willing to condemn anyone to further their cause; however, it's equally clear to me that SA supporters are doing the same, at least to one - perhaps undeserving - group.

    There has been a lot of dialog on mental health and SA supporters are willing to vilify a group of law abiding Americans to further this cause. Admittedly, I don't know a lot about mental heath issues, treatments, etc., so I began to read a bit. As I said, I don't claim to know a lot about this, but this is what I discovered...

    According to the National Institute of Mental Health, “An estimated 26.2 percent of Americans ages 18 and older — about one in four adults — suffer from a diagnosable mental disorder in a given year.” That's nearly 58 million people in this country that are old enough to purchase a firearm. And this begs the question - what percentage of this 58 million commit these mass murders?

    The largest number I could find was 157 mass shootings from 1900 through 2012. To favor the mental health narrative, let's say everyone of these individuals had a mental health disorder. It would be a more accurate approach to look at the population sample as a function of shootings on each of those years, but let's really throw this in favor of the mental health narrative and use all 157.

    We get 2 ten thousandths of 1 percent (0.0002%). Is this really a mental health issue, or is it an evil issue? Should we really condemn and disfranchise 68 million Americans from exercising their Constitutional rights for the actions of 157 people over the last 112 years? If these 68 million individuals are that dangerous, I have even greater concerns than just firearms.

    While history and empirical data demonstrates clearly to me the importance and need for our Second Amendment, does this justify us using these people as a scapegoat in defense of that right? That to me it is a clear no. Do we really need more than question f. on the 4473? Looking at the numbers above, it appears what we currently have is working.
    Last edited by 2700; 04-21-2013 at 05:04 PM. Reason: typo
    "Two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity... and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
    Gun Control Works

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  3. #2
    Isn't suicide the leading cause of death by legal firearm?

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    Isn't suicide the leading cause of death by legal firearm?
    I could find no statistics for the ownership of the firearm, lawful, borrowed, stolen or otherwise as used in a suicide, only firearms as a whole. The latest data I found is firearms are used in 50.5% of all suicides.

    I think you may be trying to go somewhere here. If so, please do. Hopefully, it will not be if people didn't have a firearm they would not kill themselves as I believe that logic would fail as readily as the anti-gun argument that without guns there would less crime, acts of evil and mass murders.
    "Two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity... and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
    Gun Control Works

  5. #4
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    Murders have been happening on this planet sense the time man appeared. Cane and Able being the first one recorded. Don't believe guns had any involvement in that one. In my opinion the gun grabbing special interest want all guns out of private hands. They will use any tactic to make that happen. Mental health is just another avenue to that end. Kind of telling when mental health is considered the big issue in mass shootings like Sandy Hook, yet it's absent in this latest congressional go around.
    "You can get a lot accomplished if you don't care who gets the credit" - Ronald Reagan

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by 2700 View Post
    I could find no statistics for the ownership of the firearm, lawful, borrowed, stolen or otherwise as used in a suicide, only firearms as a whole. The latest data I found is firearms are used in 50.5% of all suicides.

    I think you may be trying to go somewhere here. If so, please do. Hopefully, it will not be if people didn't have a firearm they would not kill themselves as I believe that logic would fail as readily as the anti-gun argument that without guns there would less crime, acts of evil and mass murders.
    So you think we shouldn't have laws because criminals will violate them anyway?

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    So you think we shouldn't have laws because criminals will violate them anyway?
    While you may be willing to disfranchise 68 million Americans from exercising their Constitutional rights because the actions of (0.000001%) of them, I am not.

    If you would like to have have a productive discussion, you will have to do better than a straw-man argument. If you have a point, you still haven't detailed it. Why not?
    Last edited by 2700; 04-19-2013 at 12:19 AM. Reason: typo
    "Two things are infinite - the universe and human stupidity... and I'm not sure about the universe." -Albert Einstein
    Gun Control Works

  8. #7
    I apologize that I cannot come up with the exact data or website, however Dr Ignatius Piazza from Firearm Training Courses - Handgun ( Glock, etc.), Shotgun, Rifle, (Sub) Machine Gun - from FrontSight.com has researched and identified pharmaceutical drugs being taken for mental disorders prevelant in nearly all of the mass killers medical history.

  9. What hypocrites! When Newtown, Waco and Boston happened, they rushed in therapist to help the survivors and those deeply impacted by these horrific events. Are the victims now to be considered clear and present danger because horrific events and/or violence begets violence?

    Their approach is ripe for fraud and corruption. Or maybe that's the point.
    When all other methods of protest have been dismantled, the system leaves us with only two options: stand and fight, or kneel and beg for mercy. All you need to know is what YOU would do when faced with that choice.

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by 2700 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    Isn't suicide the leading cause of death by legal firearm?
    I could find no statistics for the ownership of the firearm, lawful, borrowed, stolen or otherwise as used in a suicide, only firearms as a whole. The latest data I found is firearms are used in 50.5% of all suicides.

    I think you may be trying to go somewhere here. If so, please do. Hopefully, it will not be if people didn't have a firearm they would not kill themselves as I believe that logic would fail as readily as the anti-gun argument that without guns there would less crime, acts of evil and mass murders.
    I think what he was saying is more suicides happen with firearms than murders. I've seen that statistic too I just don't remember where. I think it said out of the 30,000 firearms related deaths per year in this country 19,000 were suicides or roughly 63%.

    idk know if I agree with you or not though. I think most people kill themselves with firearms because it's easier and quicker to just grab a gun and pull the trigger than to say, take the time to go through the preparations to hang yourself or slit your wrists and wait to bleed out. Obviously people who are determined to die are going to, regardless of means, but I think firearms do make the decision easier for some people.

    Now, do I think that constitutes a reason to restrict them? Absolutely not. Suicide is a horrible, tragic thing, but your decision to kill yourself is on you and nobody else. I've had four friends intentionally take their own lives and even though there were usually things that pushed them towards that decision, the final call was all on them. If I knew ahead of time that somebody wanted to kill themselves, obviously I would do my best to get them help; but I would not be willing to give up MY constitutional rights, in order to take away ONE of the means of THEM CHOOSING to take their own life.

    Long story short, IMO taking away guns would probably slightly reduce suicides but its a give and take situation and I don't think giving a few people, who have made the selfish decision to kill themselves, that slight extra opportunity to change their minds is worth rescinding the rights of tens of millions of other people who have done nothing wrong.

  11. People with certain kinds of mental health problems should be denied the ability to buy, own, or possess firearms. Mechanisms should be in place to make that happen--including specifically- and narrowly-defined conditions, privacy protections,and restoration of gun rights if and when the underlying problem is satisfactorily controlled. This is not an issue that can be discussed intelligently with pat slogans like "disenfranchise from constitutional rights" or with references to poorly searched, misunderstood, misinterpreted, and misapplied "statistics." A homicidal psychopath with a history of violent acts simply should not have access to guns because somebody asserts they are a small percentage of the population or the number of people they end up killing are a small percentage of overall homicides. Side issue: Every wacko who kills somebody with a gun he shouldn't have had makes it ever-easier for gun controllers to eventually succeed in taking guns away from all of us.

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