Fair Tax may be The only way to Limit Government - Page 2
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Thread: Fair Tax may be The only way to Limit Government

  1. I love how these socialists sign up with an account on these gun sites (and others), fine tune their message for the "let's pretend-we-are-republicans" in order to advance their agendas. I have read all 131 pages of that so-called "fair tax" crap. Under this "federalized" state sales tax system, there is NO escape, even among those 5 states who pay no sales tax today. Well, whatever short-term numbers they try to glamorize, here are the facts:

    - The fair tax is replacement, not reform.

    - Food and medicine are not exempt.

    - Yes, of course Congress can raise the FairTax rate just as it does the income tax rate.

    - The FairTax Plan is devised to be revenue neutral for the FIRST YEAR of operation. It raises the same amount of revenue as is raised by current law. After the FIRST YEAR, revenue is expected to rise.

    - What will the rate of the sales tax be AT THE RETAIL COUNTER? 30%.

    - Is there ANY provision in the FairTax bill to prevent both an income tax and a sales tax? NO.

    - The FairTax makes the economy much more dynamic and prosperous. Consequently, FEDERAL TAX REVENUES GROW.


    Let's move on to who sponsored H.R. 25 (the "Fair Tax" bill). Rob Woodall, rated only a 66% Conservative/Freedom Index score:

    - Woodall voted NO on HR 4435 - to prohibit the Indefinite Detention of Americans.

    - Woodall voted YES on H J Res 59 - to INCREASE the discretionary spending caps to $1.012 Trillion and $1.014 Trillion in fiscal years 2014 and 2015.

    - Woodall voted NO on HR 2397 Amendment 54 - to prohibit funds to "be used for United States military exercises which include any participation by the People's Republic of China."

    - Woodall voted NO on HR 2397 Amendment 70 - to end the blanket collection of records under the Patriot Act.

    - Woodall voted YES on HR 1947 - to authorize $939 Billion through fiscal 2018, rural development.

    - Woodall voted YES on HR 6018 - The Foreign Relations Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2013, authorizes $9 billion for the State Department's diplomatic and consular programs, $1.6 billion for dues to international organizations (about $0.6 billion for UN regular budget dues and about $1 billion in contributions to 43 other UN-system, regional, and non-UN organizations), and $1.8 billion for contributions for UN peacekeeping activities.

    Rob Woodall and his colleagues are not the least bit concerned about you or me. They are only concerned that everybody is not paying "their fair share", and need MORE money to fund their costly and anti-Constitutional policies. And what better way than a blanket "fair tax", that sounds "appealing" to some? If they WERE in fact sincere, why not vote responsibly, constitutionally, to rein in spending in the first place (see above record)? Why not sponsor a bill that repeals the 16th Amendment and the IRS and leave it at that, WITHOUT polluting HR 25 with 131 pages of words such as "prison", "jail" and "fines". The answer: They want your money, They want "no escaping it". They will postpone, bribe, lie and steal from everybody and anybody to get it. This bill is merely a ploy to sidetrack those of us who want to abolish the IRS, Fed, 16th and 17th.

    Everybody here should know by now that more laws, different laws, governments, only make things worse. That is precisely why we are where we are today. The only solution is to begin REPEALING some the millions upon millions of laws that are already in place - NO replacements necessary.

  2.   
  3. #12
    We will never have tax reform. Never. If they change it, it will be like Obama care is at fixing health care. I wish we did have a simpler tax code, but ain't never going to happen.

  4. #13
    The post of a brainless copy and paste called the" Republican Menu" is titled wrong, it should be titled the top " Lies Democrats Would Have You Believe".
    The Fair Tax would eliminate the IRS and the need to file for estimated tax. You would be taxed on what you SPEND, not what you EARN. Your sales receipt would include the tax you paid on your purchase, no need for confusing tax filings yearly. Illegals would be paying taxes for a change.

    http://fairtax.org/

  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by SR9 View Post
    The post of a brainless copy and paste called the" Republican Menu" is titled wrong, it should be titled the top " Lies Democrats Would Have You Believe".
    The Fair Tax would eliminate the IRS and the need to file for estimated tax. You would be taxed on what you SPEND, not what you EARN. Your sales receipt would include the tax you paid on your purchase, no need for confusing tax filings yearly.
    You're one to talk about brainless posts.

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProudAmericanFirst View Post
    I love how these socialists sign up with an account on these gun sites (and others), fine tune their message for the "let's pretend-we-are-republicans" in order to advance their agendas. I have read all 131 pages of that so-called "fair tax" crap. Under this "federalized" state sales tax system, there is NO escape, even among those 5 states who pay no sales tax today. Well, whatever short-term numbers they try to glamorize, here are the facts:

    .
    Frank, Thanks for joining USA Carry, you'll fit right in with the rest of the Liberals here.

    Since we already went through all of this on The Steubenville For Liberty Group.

    I'll just copy and paste the same answers I already gave you.

    I like your name, so what is the ProudAmericanFirst's Plan?


    Where do these "used" products come from, Chuck? A used product assembly line?

    Frank, Do I really need me to explain there are used cars and a lot of older but well built homes available?

    Most Americans in this country do not live on a farm. In your fantasy world, 311,000,000 people would have acreage to grow their own food, raise livestock, ride around in a jalopy or horse and buggy, and not contribute to small, medium or large businesses - which employ people.

    You’re not paying attention Pilgrim, even if you live in the City and buy a new house, a new car, and buy all your own food, the Fair Tax cost would be around $55.600.00 comparted to the $91,000.00 you would pay in income tax.
    Remember this is just 10 years, most people live in their home 30 years or longer, so for the next 20 years you pay (0).
    Those that want to pay less taxes (even if they don’t live on a farm) and can still find that assembly line you aren’t aware of could save another $43,700.00.
    And those drug dealers, and 14,000,000 illegal Immigrants that don’t pay taxes now, will even without Amnesty.


    If you earn $40,000. a year and pay around .228% taxes on those earnings, it cost you $9,120. Per year ( $91,000. In 10 years)
    If you buy a home for $150,000. and you pay 23% Fair Tax it will cost you ($34,500.) If you buy a used home it will cost you ($0).
    If you buy a new vehicle for $40,000. you pay 23% Fair Tax (-$9,200.) if you buy a used vehicle you pay ($0).
    If you buy all your own food you can eat pretty well on $100.00 a week. $5200. / year $52,000. Over 10 years. 23% Fair Tax (-$11,960.)



    And it's not 25% which you use to lure suckers in who don't understand the ramifications, but rather 30% at the counter on every item purchased, including food and medicine, which continues to pay for endless wars, bankers, federal programs, etc.

    Again your almost right Frank, H.R. 25, the specific bill calls for a 23 percent retail sales tax. Even if it was 30%, it would still save those of us that now pay all the taxes a ton of money, instead of saving another
    $43,700.00 by buying a used car or home you would only save $40,641.00.


    Like I said to Wayne, you will INFRINGE upon others because it MAY work out for YOU, which is against the cardinal rule for anybody in this Liberty movement. But your method continues to feed the beast, and boy will it ever, forcing others into a system where there is NO escape and does nothing to rein in spending and the overbearing government. This paragraph alone should speak for itself and raise red flags for any freedom loving American.

    Your right Frank, it will force others into the system, Drug Dealers, and Illegals will have to start paying their share.
    You say it does nothing to rein in spending , but it may rein in those sweet Corporation tax deals Representatives make.


    Your socialistic "fair tax" CRAP may very well pass. It will be the likes of YOU who will be remembered for imposing this on me, my family and those who are in this fight to fix the root of the problem. You can continue to carry your signs, rally the people, and use poetic language to lure people in, just as many did for romney when they chanted USA USA.

    Your starting to sound like a Liberal Democrat, that has nothing to offer except name calling and fabricated stories, so when you get close to that root, let me know.

    I have come to the realization that this government has NEVER shrunk, NOR will it ever. It is because people like you believe that they must "do something", by way of creating MORE laws rather than LESS. It is because of your short-sightedness without understanding the facts, and the countless sheep who follow.

    At least it’s something, and if it eliminates the IRS and the 16th. Amendment it’s a good start.

    For those who have missed it, here it is once again:


    * From fairtax.org web site:

    - The fair tax is replacement, not reform.
    There has always been a replacement even George Washington had to improvise an excise tax which lead to the Whiskey Rebellion of 1791.
    Replacing the IRS’s Income tax is a good place to start.

    - Food and medicine are not exempt.
    I’ll give you a point on this one your almost right, Food and medicine is not exempt. That is why a Fair Tax Prebate has been included in the bill it is designed to ensure that no American pays Federal Taxes on spending up to and including the poverty level.
    All valid social Security cardholders who are legal U.S. Residence receive a monthly Prebate payment equivalent to the Fair Tax paid on essential goods and services including food, shelter, transportation, medical care, and so on.
    Two adults with 2 children would receive and Prebate of $7,236. Or $603.00 per month.


    - Yes, of course Congress can raise the FairTax rate just as it does the income tax rate.

    If we get the Fair Tax passed what Congressman would want to propose a bill to raise the Fair Tax Rate?

    - The FairTax Plan is devised to be revenue neutral for the FIRST YEAR of operation. It raises the same amount of revenue as is raised by current law. After the FIRST YEAR, revenue is expected to rise.

    Because all the non-payers will be paying.

    - What will the rate of the sales tax be AT THE RETAIL COUNTER? 30%.

    Still better than what we have Now, Right?

    - Is there ANY provision in the FairTax bill to prevent both an income tax and a sales tax? NO.

    Yes! the elimination of the 16th. Amendment

    - The FairTax makes the economy much more dynamic and prosperous. Consequently, FEDERAL TAX REVENUES GROW.

    Good, Maybe they pay off the National Debt

    * Let’s move on to who sponsored H.R. 25 (the “Fair Tax” bill). Rob Woodall, rated only a 66% Conservative/Freedom Index score:

    WOW Frank, I thought you could do better than just “Cherry Pickin” what about the other 74???

    - Woodall voted NO on HR 4435 – to prohibit the Indefinite Detention of Americans.

    - Woodall voted YES on H J Res 59 – to INCREASE the discretionary spending caps to $1.012 Trillion and $1.014 Trillion in fiscal years 2014 and 2015.

    - Woodall voted NO on HR 2397 Amendment 54 - to prohibit funds to "be used for United States military exercises which include any participation by the People's Republic of China."

    - Woodall voted NO on HR 2397 Amendment 70 - to end the blanket collection of records under the Patriot Act.

    - Woodall voted YES on HR 1947 – to authorize $939 Billion through fiscal 2018, rural development.

    - Woodall voted YES on HR 6018 - The Foreign Relations Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2013 authorizes $9 billion for the State Department's diplomatic and consular programs, $1.6 billion for dues to international organizations (about $0.6 billion for UN regular budget dues and about $1 billion in contributions to 43 other UN-system, regional, and non-UN organizations), and $1.8 billion for contributions for UN peacekeeping activities.


    Rob Woodall and his colleagues are not the least bit concerned about you or me. They are only concerned that everybody is not paying “their fair share”, and need MORE money to fund their costly and anti-Constitutional policies. And what better way than a blanket "fair tax", that sounds "appealing" to some? If they WERE in fact sincere, why not vote responsibly, constitutionally, to rein in spending in the first place (see above record)? Why not sponsor a bill that repeals the 16th Amendment and the IRS and leave it at that, WITHOUT polluting HR 25 with 131 pages of words such as “prison”, “jail” and “fines”. The answer: They want your money, They want “no escaping it”. They will postpone, bribe, lie and steal from everybody and anybody to get it. This bill is merely a ploy to sidetrack those of us who want to abolish the IRS, Fed, 16th and 17th.

    Everybody here should know by now that more laws, different laws, governments, only make things worse. That is precisely why we are where we are today. The only solution is to begin REPEALING some the millions upon millions of laws that are already in place - NO replacements necessary.


    Frank, I think the Fair Tax is less than 200 pages
    The year before Obama was sworn into office, the U.S. tax code was just 67,506 pages long.
    In Obama's first two years in office, the U.S. tax code grew to be 71,684 pages long.

    Take Care
    Chuck




    “Every step we take towards making the State our Caretaker of our lives, by that much we move toward making the State our Master.” – Dwight D. Eisenhower

  7. #16
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    In 2001 I had a lot of time on my hands due to first, a fall in which I broke both wrists, an elbow, a humerus fracture and a couple of toes, and second, a major back surgery for which the recovery extended into late '02. Much of that time was spent learning about the Fair Tax, and towards the end of my surgery recovery, I was a charter member of the Huntsville, AL chapter of fairtax.org's attempt to nationalize their efforts to educate folks about it. Between 2003 and 2011 I traveled extensively as a volunteer with fairtax.org, manning promotional tables, driving their merchandising truck and participating in every rally I could make it to, including trips to Columbia, SC, Ames, IA, Denver, CO, Atlanta, GA, Las Vegas, NV and WA D.C. on three separate occasions. There's barely a question or controversy about the proposal that I couldn't answer or address off the top of my head without having to refer to source material. Debray does a fine job of answering the newcomer's rant against the proposal, but even if he hadn't, I would not have argued about it with "ProudAmericanFirst" anyway, and here's why:

    As someone with around ten years of deeply-involved activism, and who is somewhere into the $20K range of expenditures in support of the Fair Tax, I think I'm qualified to say that it's never going to come to fruition. At its peak of congressional support, it had only about ~150 (+/-) co-sponsors (it may have reached ~175, but I'm almost positive it has never broke the 200 mark). As of this writing, it has 75. The first year H.R. 25 was introduced was 1999 by John Linder, not-so-coincidentally from the same District Seat of GA that Rob Woodall now occupies. Woodall succeeded Linder when Linder retired in 2011, but Linder is both the author of, and main congressional advocate of the Fair Tax since its inception. I have met John Linder and discussed the FT at length with him. I have attended countless rallies at which he has spoken on the subject. I think the FT is a great idea, but great ideas aren't what sells in D.C. The FT puts too much autonomous power in the hands of individuals and removes most of the choke-hold that government has on economic liberty. To get a politician to vote in favor of reducing his/her own power is a pipe-dream at best. This was an extremely expensive lesson to learn for me.

    My involvement with Fair Tax advocacy, as well as ObamaCare opposition, are two of the biggest reasons I say that the Constitution, even America herself, is dead. No assertion that she is still alive and thriving can be valid when the supposed "representatives" of The People work so hard against the interests of The People for so many continuous generations. So beyond rescue is our monetary policy at this point, that no method of collecting taxes can accomplish such an unachievable task, and at the bottom line, for all the added fairness and reductions in government intrusions in our lives that the FT would accomplish, that's really all it is, is another way of collecting taxes.

    I don't intend the above to denigrate anyone (or Debray specifically) who advocates and talks up the Fair Tax. If it ever got enough sponsors to pass, at the same time that we had a President who would sign it into law and all those folks would put a rider on the bill that it wouldn't go into effect until the 16th Amendment was repealed, then I would break my own self-imposed refusal to participate in elections anymore and vote for the President/Senators/Congress-critters who are supporting it. I do not expect to ever have to change my mind about voting based on that commitment made here in public though, such is the level of certainty I have in the fully usurped nature of our Constitution and nation.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  8. #17
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    Good post, Blues.

    Perhaps the FT will have a place after the hardships that are ahead of us, then again, maybe not.

    Either way, our current taxing system isn't going anywhere. It's much too profitable for the government, it will stay until the government ceases to be.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deanimator View Post
    [*]Don't be afraid to use sarcasm, mockery and humiliation. They don't respect you. There's no need to pretend you respect them.
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  9. Chuck, here is my response that I sent to you via email, since you brought up other topics as well:



    The reason the Constitution is dead for some is because the People do not enforce it, much less know what is in it. Know-Your-Rights-And-You-Will-Win. But we [the People] need the numbers in order to win.



    I have just finished reading S. 1025, the companion bill to H.R. 25. It is also garbage. We can sit around and debate all day, but until people understand the root of the problem, the problems will never go away. In any event, it is easy for me to understand why the NEOCONS would promote either/both; they love their government, they want MORE people to participate in it, and as long their preferred party letter wins, all is good.



    Moving on to the so-called immigration "crisis". It is another ruse. But here again, I will be labeled a "liberal" among the NEOCONS.



    Many "republicans" (NOT ME) here in my state and others have contacted their representatives, demanding that these so-called "illegals" be documented, and/or sent back home. Aside from ignoring the fact that we were once the great melting pot where people came here seeking freedom and prosperity, worked hard and set up businesses which employed others, here is what "documenting" does:



    1. automatically qualify for welfare/free handouts (on MY dime).
    2. automatically allowed to vote (more than typically for welfare/free handouts - again, on MY dime)
    3. automatically registers them into government databases, even though they have not been convicted of a crime in a court of law, thus violating the 4th and 5th Amendments.
    4. automatically upon being hired, forces them to PAY via taxes into the corrupt system, and somewhat restricting the ability to work in a true free market.



    And then we have S. 744, the so-called immigration "reform" bill that passed the Senate October 2013. That bill contains 40 occurrences of "Biometric" Identification, at a minimum cost of $25 BILLION to implement. If/when the House version passes, it will only be a matter of time before our "representatives" convince the sheep that "some are slipping through the cracks", and in order to differentiate "us" from "them", ALL Americans will be required to be Bio-Id'd as well. Think it CAN'T happen? Take a good hard look at H.R. 3398.



    MY proposal? Every person across this land should rally together and demand an end to welfare/free handouts. NO other laws need be written. This will drastically reduce the number of those coming in looking for free handouts, while those coming in will work and be productive members of our communities - just as our grandparents did.



    So, Chuck, while labels are being thrown back and forth, "feel-good" bills written and proposed which perpetuates the corruption, and as our Republic continues down the shitter, perhaps you will someday understand why good intentions almost always lead to bad consequences. It is not our politicians fault. It is OUR fault, for We the People are the true leaders of our land.



    The solution? I wish more people read more bills and were able to connect-the-dots. And then vote NO on every single one of them while ENFORCING the Constitution.

  10. #19
    Proud American,

    Good luck getting rid of those "free handouts" How many of them do you enjoy? Oh and since when did being legally documented entitle you with the right to vote. Last time I checked citizenship was required? Unless of course you're talking about committing identity fraud and or voter fraud, which is a federal crime, and for documented or undocumented immigrants is grounds for imprisonment and permanent deportation.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by GryHounnd View Post
    How many of them do you enjoy? Last time I checked citizenship was required?
    1. Z-E-R-O

    2. Paperwork.

    Consider yourself complicit to the problem.

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