Evil government: to submit or not to submit
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Thread: Evil government: to submit or not to submit

  1. #1
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    Evil government: to submit or not to submit

    There has been some discussion about submitting to the governing authority in America even though it may go against God's laws. Pastors are preaching Romans 13 where the Apostle Paul is saying to submit to the ruling authorities, pay your taxes, and obey the law because these things are put in place to not be a terror to good works, but to evil. There are two mentions in this passage about the higher powers being ministers of God. Pastors often use it to teach that we must be submissive to the government even though it may be an evil one. But Peter himself said in Acts 5:29 that, "We ought to follow God rather than men" when he was facing persecution and unjust demands from the ruling authorities. As I see it, the context of Romans 13 was about the religious leaders that were the Roman-appointed governing body over the Jews. In any case, if those leaders are corrupt by Biblical terms it is self-evident that you do not follow or support them. Governments are established for the good and protection of the people. In that, people give up some rights for those protections. Laws are established also to protect the people. As Christians, we know that we are to be a law abiding people. But when a law goes against God's law; or a government goes against God's law, to whom do we submit as the higher authority? Peter answered that question when the ruling Sadducees threw him in prison for preaching Jesus in the Temple.

    When this country was established, the Founders were well aware that they were going against the prevailing world view--that God appointed the ruler (the king) and that the people should blindly follow even if that ruler was unjust. We can see the Founders' thinking by reading the Declaration of Independence in its entirety. Their mantra at Concord and Lexington was "No King but Jesus." So in our form of government, we the people have the say over who rules us. To passively submit to evil rulers, especially in this nation where God blessed us with the freedom to choose, is beyond the bounds of God-given common sense and self-preservation. No man will convince me that the occupant of the Oval Office is a minister of God to me for good as stated in Romans 13:4. But I do know that if I break the laws of the nation, there will be consequences. If I am to overcome that evil, I must overcome it with good (Romans 12:21). In my opinion, this should be done without breaking the higher laws--those just and right laws of God. I also believe we in America are held to a higher standard because of the freedom the Lord blessed us with when this nation was formed. We are to follow the higher laws of God as we are members first of His kingdom. Perhaps the best way to begin overcoming evil in high places is by cleansing the pulpit of those who condone it.

    Bill Wilson

    "The Further A Society Drifts From The Truth The More It Will Hate Those Who Speak It".
    ~ George Orwell ~
    It Is Appointed Onto Man Once To Die, And After That To Face Judgement

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  3. #2
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    I thought about replying to this thread when I first saw it, even starting (but then bailing) on a reply. Sometimes I'm just not up to expressing myself the way I want to, so I just "Liked" the OP and waited to see if the Holy Spirit would either move me to write about it, or provide me with another way to address it. Turns out, He provided me with another way.

    I am subscribed to several news and opinion publications. I refer to one of them pretty often I suppose, "News With Views." I especially like NWV because they have assembled a fairly large team of writers who comport with base-line requirements (such as being political conservatives and Christian), but write from widely varying perspectives about the things that interest me most.

    The "issue" (in quotes because it really is no issue to me - anymore) concerning Romans 13 is a recurring one on this forum, as well as in the NWV email subscription. One of NWV's prominent authors is Pastor Chuck Baldwin, who, with his son Timothy, has written a book on the Biblical passage, though he is not the only NWV author to write about it at their website. However, today's email did include one of his newest pieces about Romans 13, so I unburied this thread to use his piece as my reply. So here ya go:



    By Chuck Baldwin
    October 31, 2013
    NewsWithViews.com

    Then-Senator Lyndon Baines Johnson devised what has proven to be a brilliant strategy in which to silence and neuter America's churches. His bill, which created the 501c3 tax-exempt corporation status for churches back in 1954, has, over the decades, effectively muted America's pulpits. The vast majority of churches today are thoroughly and completely intimidated by the threat of losing their tax-exempt status under the 501c3 section of the Internal Revenue Code (IRC). As a result, the vast majority of pastors are unwilling to address virtually any issue from the pulpit that could be deemed as political.

    Add to the fear of losing tax-exempt status the egregiously slavish interpretation of Romans 13--that Christians and churches must submit to civil government no matter what--and a very legitimate argument can be made that Mr. Johnson not only silenced and neutered America's churches, but that he has, in effect, turned them into agents of the state. More and more, the federal government is using pastors and churches to promote its big-government agenda.

    Most readers are familiar with how FEMA created a program called "Clergy Response Teams" several years ago. Under this program, tens of thousands of pastors were instructed on how to assist the federal government in the event of a "national emergency." Pastors were encouraged to teach Bible lessons from Romans 13 in which church members were told that God instructs them to always submit to civil authority unconditionally. They were taught to encourage their congregants to turn in their firearms and to be willing to relocate to government-provided shelters if that is what the government told them to do. The last report I read noted that these Clergy Response Teams have been established in over 1,300 counties in the United States. For those readers who are even casually acquainted with history, is this straight out of the Nazi handbook, or what? Now we learn that churches are being used to help the federal government promote and sell Obamacare.

    According to TheBlaze.com, "Community organizers are joining pastors across the country to educate and help parishioners sign up for Obamacare. The coordinated initiative, called 'Health Care from the Pulpit,' is being implemented by Enroll America, a non-profit with the goal of maximizing 'the number of uninsured Americans who enroll in health coverage made available by the Affordable Care Act.'

    "The program has already reached a number of churches across the nation. In Jacksonville, Fla, Pastor John Newman is among those who invited community organizers from the group to his church to talk about the cost of Obamacare and the enrollment process.

    "During the event, Enroll America invited congregants to fill out cards with basic information about themselves or people they knew who might be in need of health care, WJXT-TV [Jacksonville, Florida] reports.

    "'Our pastor, he keeps us real informed and grounded in what's going on in the community, and he's always bringing stuff to help us, so I love him for that,' said one parishioner named Michelle Fletcher.

    "Enroll America knows that pastors are trusted members of the community, which is why churches are a focus for education and information on the health care law.

    "Through 'Health Care from the Pulpit,' the organization is working with faith leaders to ensure that people hear about availability--and with a captive audience in the pews, the move makes logistical sense.

    "'Pastors are trusted messengers. They'll be able to get the story across, they'll be able to relate to that story and they'll be able to ask people to enroll in health insurance,' Enroll America organizer Anthony Penna told WJXT.

    "From Oct. 25-27, the organization launched its pulpit program as part of the Get Covered America campaign. Enroll America pledged to help churches who wish to enroll congregants or provide people in the community with information and resources.

    "A press release from Oct. 22 on the Get Covered America website further explains the purpose of the in-church events.

    "'The "Treat Yourself to Coverage Weekend" will also engage dozens of faith groups for the first nationwide push of "Health Care in the Pulpit," GetCovered America's faith engagement program,' it reads. "Working with a diverse group of faith and lay leaders, Get Covered America will host over 50 events across the country to further engage the faith community in education about enrollment in the marketplace."

    "Other initiatives are bringing churches into the Obamacare fold as well. Dr. Michael Minor, pastor of Oak Hill Missionary Baptist Church in Hernando, Miss., was recently given a federal grant to help enroll individuals in the health care program.

    "Through the $317,742 fund, Minor will work with Cover Mississippi, a cohort of advocacy groups organized by the Mississippi Health Advocacy Program. He has already put together a group of 75 to 100 'navigators' (trainers) around the state to provide information and access to Obamacare. While his efforts are unaffiliated with Enroll America, they serve as another example of a church getting involved in the health care roll-out."

    See the report here: 'Health Care From the Pulpit': Here's How Some Churches Are Spreading the Word About Obamacare

    Think about it: before a bill becomes law, pastors are forbidden to address it from the pulpit, because it would be "interfering in politics--a violation of the separation of church and state;" but after a bill becomes law it is now the obligation and duty of pastors to support (and promote) it, because it is now the Biblical thing to do, per Romans 13. Was Johnson a diabolical genius, or what?

    <Snipped some advertising about Pastor Baldwin's book>

    In the same manner that the Nazi government co-opted the churches of Germany, the federal government in Washington, D.C., is co-opting the churches of America today. During the rise of the Third Reich, Germany's pastors and churches were taught the same misinterpretation of Romans 13 that pastors and churches in America are now being taught. And in the same way that Hitler used Germany's pastors and churches to promote his big-government socialist agenda, America's pastors and churches today are being used to promote the big-government socialist agenda emanating from Washington, D.C. Mr. Bush used the churches to promote the FEMA Clergy Response Teams, and now Mr. Obama is using the churches to promote the federal government's socialized health care system.

    I remind readers that during the Hitler years, the vast majority of German pastors and churches enthusiastically embraced the Nazi agenda even to the point of flying Nazi flags and giving the Nazi salute during the worship services in Germany's churches. But who among us remembers the names of any of these pathetic pastors? Yet, we do remember (as does history itself) the names of plucky pastors such as Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Niemoller who led the spiritual opposition to Hitler's encroachment into the church.

    Instead of the federal government's draconian "Clergy Response Teams," we need to resurrect Bonhoeffer's band of heroes, which was known as the "Pastors' Emergency League." This was a group of German pastors dedicated to resisting the Nazi agenda--especially inside the church. The creed of Bonhoeffer's Pastors' Emergency League was:

    1. To renew their allegiance to the Scriptures.
    2. To resist those who attack the Scriptures.
    3. To give material and financial aid to those who suffered through repressive laws or violence.
    4. To repudiate the Nazi cause.

    Bonhoeffer's Pastors' Emergency League soon became a nationwide movement called, the "Confessing Church." In his masterful book, "Hitler's Cross," Erwin Lutzer summarizes the creed of the Confessing Church as being, "No human sovereign should rule over the church; it must be under the Word of God to fulfill its role." (Page134)

    Lutzer also noted that the Confessing Church soon realized that "blind obedience, even in matters that belong to the state, might be a violation of the Christian mandate." (Ibid)

    Lutzer further wrote, "Many of our Christian heroes were lawbreakers. Whether it was John Bunyan, who sat in a Bedford jail for his preaching, Richard Wurmbrand, who was beaten for teaching the Bible in Communist Romania, Christians have always insisted that there is a law higher than that of the state." (Ibid)

    And, again, to quote Lutzer: "[I]f we say that we will always obey the state, the state becomes our God." (Ibid)

    The brave Bonhoeffer rightly said, "Silence in the face of evil is itself evil: God will not hold us guiltless. Not to speak is to speak. Not to act is to act." He also said, "We are not to simply bandage the wounds of victims beneath the wheels of injustice, we are to drive a spoke into the
    wheel."

    The names of the cowardly and compliant pastors who succumbed to Hitler's ignominious intimidation are forever lost, while the names of Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Martin Niemoller will live forever.

    In fact, are not the vast majority of highly revered Hebrew and Christian heroes the ones who RESISTED the power of the state when it became tyrannical? From Abram who resisted the "kings of the nations;" to Gideon; to Samson; to Queen Esther; to the prophet Micaiah; to Daniel; to Shadrach Meshach, and Abednego; to Simon Peter, who told civil leaders, "We ought to obey God rather than men;" to William Tyndale; to John Hus; to John Wycliffe; to John Bunyan; to Savonarola; to Martin Luther; to Dietrich Bonhoeffer; and to Jonas Clark, the names history regards most fondly are the names of men who RESISTED the power of the state when it attempted to interfere with man's duty and devotion to God.

    However, what do we see today? We see pastors and churches once again becoming the pawns of evil men in government. Pastors are not so much messengers of God and watchmen on the wall as much as they are agents of the state. They are not so much shepherds who fight and give their lives for the sheep as much as they are facilitators of the wolves who seek to prey on the sheep. And in modern history, the seed of this compromise and complacency began in 1954 when Lyndon Johnson introduced the devilish 501c3 tax-exempt corporation status for churches.

    I am absolutely convinced--now more than ever--that America will never experience any sort of spiritual awakening until pastors and Christians abandon the 501c3 government churches and repudiate the devilish doctrine of unlimited obedience to Caesar. Until we return the Church to its rightful owner, Jesus Christ, the tentacles of oppression and tyranny will continue to strangle our land and our liberties.

    <Snipped some more advertising>
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  4. #3

    Evil government: to submit or not to submit

    Good writing from both, I mostly agree. Problem I always see is the human factor. You give political power to a politician that knows how to use it and greed sets in. They will find a way to use it to there political and or financial gain
    FUNNY HOW PEOPLE ALWAYS WANT THE TRUTH AS LONG AS IT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR

  5. #4
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    I didn't reply to Ringo's thread because I thought it was complete and needed no additional comment. But there are a few things which I would like to briefly mention at this time.

    There are far too many modern preachers who will not comment on the evils being perpetrated by this administration and the progressives; because they are too afraid of losing their tax exempt status. This exemption was an intentional attempt by the progressives to muzzle the churches and religious leaders. Not speaking out against the wicked actions our political leaders and modern society makes the churches complicit in that evil. Religious leaders have very little credibility unless they condemn the evil and accept the consequences. Our modern day preachers need to clearly display the courage to speak out on the morality of their convictions. In this country churches were always exempt from property taxes; and income tax was instituted by the progressives explicitly for the purpose of redistributing wealth and the subjugation of the people.

    Churches in the U.S. have traditionally spoken out about morality and the evils that they saw in society and in government. It was Jefferson who said, "Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." The churches must take the leadership role in fighting the evil we see today in government and its contamination of our entire culture. The British placed much of the blame for the Revolution on the fiery sermons of the preachers that they called "The Black Robe Regiment". DeTocqueville believed that the greatness of America could be explained by her goodness, morality, and religious convictions. The decline of our nation can be clearly seen in the moral relativism and the wickedness in our culture. I always though that vanquishing evil was God's work. This is exactly why this administration and many special interest groups consider those adhering to traditional religion their enemies.

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by buckey01 View Post
    Churches in the U.S. have traditionally spoken out about morality and the evils that they saw in society and in government. It was Jefferson who said, "Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." The churches must take the leadership role in fighting the evil we see today in government and its contamination of our entire culture. The British placed much of the blame for the Revolution on the fiery sermons of the preachers that they called "The Black Robe Regiment". DeTocqueville believed that the greatness of America could be explained by her goodness, morality, and religious convictions. The decline of our nation can be clearly seen in the moral relativism and the wickedness in our culture. I always though that vanquishing evil was God's work. This is exactly why this administration and many special interest groups consider those adhering to traditional religion their enemies.
    Don't know if you're aware of it or not, but Pastor Baldwin (author of the piece in my post above) is doing what he can to reestablish the Black Robe Regiment. Thought it might interest you as much as your fine post interested me.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  7. #6
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    I only hope that Pastor Baldwin is able to find enough religious leaders with the courage and conviction to fight the absolute evil that has infected our society. We need religious leaders to take a stand on the issues that are destroying this country. Even our economic system is being destroyed by those who think that the purpose of government is to steal from the industrious and redistribute the wealth to those who are totally dependent upon government.

  8. #7
    Blues: I just checked out the site, News with Views and liked it very much. I hadn't heard of it before but now have subscribed. Thanks. I found this article about the Turtle Man there and thought it might be interesting reading. He is reminiscent of the older folks I knew as I was growing up and not like the new generation. They were God-fearing honest people and led by the old Hell fire and Damnation preachers that taught from the Bible. Quite unlike today's preachers who do not want to step on the toes of their parishioners, regardless of what the Bible says. The Bible talks about the falling away in the end time and it is evidenced more every day. The Bible is correct when it says to "render unto Caesar" but Caesar has an obligation to live up to the laws of the land, an oath which he took to God, if memory serves me.



    WHAT WE CAN LEARN FROM ERNIE LEE BROWN, JR. (THE TURTLE MAN)



    By Attorney Jonathan Emord
    Author of "The Rise of Tyranny" and
    "Global Censorship of Health Information" and
    "Restore The Republic"
    October 29, 2013
    NewsWithViews.com

    The popularization of the vulgar and the sacrilegious; the refusal of many to accept personal responsibility for their lives and to expect public assistance at every turn; and the duplicity so common in politicians makes us long for a return to a simpler America, to an America that once was. In the 18th and 19th centuries, Americans were possessed of greater intestinal fortitude, greater virtue, greater respect for the Golden Rule, and far greater self-reliance.

    In its reality series, Call of the Wildman, Animal Planet has unwittingly revived awareness of this more virtuous and self-reliant aspect of America, more characteristic of us in yesteryears. In what is a real life sequel to the Beverly Hillbillies, replete with comparable hilarity, Call of the Wildman is a gift to the world, revealing the essential, unvarnished American character. The person of Ernie Lee Brown, Jr. is truly remarkable, remarkably American in the historic sense.

    Brown neither smokes nor drinks. He appears not to use profanity or to swear. He is physically fit. He lives humbly and not on government assistance (although he previously could qualify for it). His home is modest without electricity and in-door plumbing. He lives off the land. He earns a living doing something that the rest of society finds far too difficult: catching critters that go astray into human environs. He does not kill the animals he captures but sets them free. He is a very hard worker. He is conscientious. He is respectful. He is brave. He has been injured many times. He does not complain. And now, he is a millionaire, having earned the favor of millions of delighted Americans who find watching his “live action” exploits comedic and irresistible entertainment.

    His is quintessentially an American story. He is a modern day Davy Crockett, a real life Huckleberry Finn. At root, he is a man of virtue, integrity, honesty, decency, and labor. He is an excellent example for Americans who may have forgotten the kind of people we once were. Europeans used to look down their noses at the rustic Americans but Alexis de Tocqueville found much to admire in the simple decency, honesty, and humility of the hard working and inventive Americans of that age. Americans like Ernie Lee Brown, Jr. settled this country, transformed swamp lands into cultivatable fields, and built the nation’s essential infrastructure—all with backbreaking work and few complaints.

    People like Ernie Lee Brown, Jr. made this nation great. They harbored a love of liberty, a respect for life, and a quest for property with a full acceptance of life’s consequences.

    Children love to watch the Turtle Man because he is to them an American super hero come to life. He is brave. He is honest. He is decent. He accepts every challenge, and he prevails by force of will power and physical stamina. If we can remember, that is who we were and who we must become again if we are to regain the culture that made us Americans and made us great.

    Click here to visit NewsWithViews.com home page.

    © 2013 Jonathan W. Emord - All Rights Reserved

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgrunt View Post
    Blues: I just checked out the site, News with Views and liked it very much. I hadn't heard of it before but now have subscribed. Thanks. I found this article about the Turtle Man there and thought it might be interesting reading.
    I'd never seen or heard of the show mentioned in the article, but I just checked and it's coming up on Sunday and Monday, so I'll check it out. Sounds like something I'd enjoy.

    Expect to get an email once a day from NWV. There's usually 3 to 5 different articles/authors highlighted in each one. Maybe once or twice a month you'll get a request for donations to the site, but they'll never bug you if you don't donate and the informative links will keep comin'. I'm not sure why they do it, but the actual email alert is in an attachment. I think they do that to get around SPAM filters, but anyway, you have to double-click on the attachment to see the alert.

    You may or may not recall the times I've linked to Devvy Kidd's research on the illegal passage of the 17th (and 16th too) Amendment, but she's a regular author there and is how I came to know about NWV. I guess it was three or four years ago when someone at another forum linked to the 17th Amendment piece, and I found my way to NWV from there.

    Quote Originally Posted by Oldgrunt View Post
    He is reminiscent of the older folks I knew as I was growing up and not like the new generation. They were God-fearing honest people and led by the old Hell fire and Damnation preachers that taught from the Bible. Quite unlike today's preachers who do not want to step on the toes of their parishioners, regardless of what the Bible says. The Bible talks about the falling away in the end time and it is evidenced more every day. The Bible is correct when it says to "render unto Caesar" but Caesar has an obligation to live up to the laws of the land, an oath which he took to God, if memory serves me.
    Mark 12:13-17 is a passage I have sought to understand for the same reasons I have looked as closely as I have at Romans 13:1-7. In both cases I come to the same conclusion; Jesus and Paul were conveying messages relative to our souls, not to the expectation that we be obedient or subservient to civil government. Nothing of our souls belongs to Caesar, and our lives are dedicated to preparing our souls to be received in the Kingdom. There is very little room between the two for Caesar to have much to do with us at all as far as I can tell.

    It seems to me that anyone who can legitimately claim that they are both God-fearing and self-reliant, is a person owing next to nothing to Caesar. Sounds like the Turtle Man is someone worth paying attention to.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

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