My Recent Online Gun Control Conversation - Page 4
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Thread: My Recent Online Gun Control Conversation

  1. That "logic" is one of the biggest arguements against an AWB. The ban takes firearms that have little or no effect on crime out of the hands of law abiding citizens and for no good reason. It limits the Second Amendment based on visual cues and sensationalism of the weapons (from the news media, movies, etc.) and does nothing to help curb violent crime. Hell, gun control does nothing to curb violent crime.

    Here's an interesting example of what would NOT be banned, but could be much more dangerous (if done with a larger caliber): Cabela's -- Gatling Gun Kit

    It's a gatling gun. A gatling gun is multiple barrels that each fire single rounds, but are linked together to fire VERY fast. They are actually some of the highest round per minute weapons made. But, since they are multiple barrels each firing only once at a time, they are NOT considered "automatic" weapons. I understand the impracticability of these weapons, but it's the principle of the arguement.
    In fact, there is an entire niche market for HOME gatling guns...here's one site: Gatling Guns by RG-G, Inc.. Read the FAQ and the link to a letter from the ATF concerning these weapons. Very interesting reading. But again, totally legal under the previous AWB and more deadly as far as rate of fire. Yet they want to ban "assault weapons" because of their appearance?

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  3. #32
    My spin on this is much the same as calling a rifle a "sniper" rifle. Firearms are tools used for different reasons. Just because a gun looks ominous (such as an AK, AR, Uzi, etc.) doesn't mean it should be classed as an assault weapon. If I use my AR or AK for sport shooting at the range how then am I assaulting anyone? Just as participating in precision shooting events doesn't make the rifle used a sniper rifle. It's not the firearm but the individual using it that turns them into assault or sniper rifles. By all means keep these weapons out of the hands that would use them illegally (violent felons, etc.) but not those who use them lawfully.

  4. #33
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    My two cents to be redistributed...

    Here's the definition of assault weapon. At one time, it was just machine guns. BATFE has set the policy that anything imported must be imported into this country as a semi-automatic firearm. There's a 3rd hole on an AK receiver that the full auto variants have. The semi-auto receivers must not have that hole in the receiver.

    Anything that is a machine gun can be made into a semi-automatic firearm. The semi-automatic versions of machine guns have a set of cosmetic characteristics that cause the layman to associate them with the select fire firearms we see in movies like the Matrix, The Terminator, Punisher, etc. It's all media hype nothing more. Classic example being an AR-15 or AK-47.

    I own a MAK-90 I purchased in 1994 as my response to the 1994 AWB. It's a semi-automatic AK-47 with a thumbhole stock. A politically correct version of the AK-47 we see in movies and on the news. It still fires the same 7.6x39mm round at the same speed as a pre-ban semi-automatic AK-47 that has a folding stock and a bayonet lug. The projectile will do the same damage to a person regardless of which semi-automatic variant is used. The folding stock and bayonet lug do not make it some magic killing device.

    A firearm is a device that is designed to propel projectile(s) at approximately 750 fps or faster through a barrel. Doesn't matter if it's bolt action, single or double shot, semi-automatic, revolver, pump action, lever action, burst fire or fully automatic. You're just as injured or worse regardless of the action of firearm used if you're hit with one of those projectiles. It's an inanimate object that has no more power over making someone commit evil than a twinkie.

    When the 1994 AWB expired first thing I did was buy a Chaote folding stock for my Marlin Camp 9 carbine I acquired while the 1994 AWB was still in effect. Just by changing the stock on that rifle I have a statutory definition of an assault weapon. It still discharges the same single 115 to 147 grain 9mm projectile with each trigger pull through a 16 1/2" barrel. The folding stock did not turn it into some magical killing device.

    The same argument can be applied to motor vehicles. If I paint my truck red with flames and put a vented hood on it does that make it a race car? It's the same truck with the same 5.2L V8 engine and automatic transmission.

    For us to win any sort of argument you need to break down a firearm into what it is which is covered in your NRA basic classes on how a firearm works. How it looks is irrelevant. If we play into the Brady's media campaign hype we will see ARs and AKs go the way of the machine gun in the mid 80's.

    People hunt with semi-auto AR and AK variants all the time. I don't care if someone has a legally acquired .50 caliber Barrett in their garage or a legally acquired machine gun.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
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  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by gdcleanfun View Post
    Sorry, I don't understand. If the AR is belt fed and is therefore capable of firing automatically, why does it cease to be an assault rifle? I would think that this would make it an assault rifle. What am I missing?
    By my understanding, because it has to feed from a removable magazine in order to to qualify as an "assault rifle".

    Also, I'm not sure that being belt-fed would necessarily make it automatic. That was my point - that under the original AWB, you couldn't have an AR-15 with a 30-round box mag, but you could have an AR-15 with a 200 round belt wrapped around you.

    5.56 is a puny round that isn't particularly useful for committing crimes. The only reason they targeted it to begin with is because it looks scary.
    Silent Running, by Mike and the Mechanics

  6. #35
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    Quote Originally Posted by toreskha View Post
    By my understanding, because it has to feed from a removable magazine in order to to qualify as an "assault rifle".

    Also, I'm not sure that being belt-fed would necessarily make it automatic. That was my point - that under the original AWB, you couldn't have an AR-15 with a 30-round box mag, but you could have an AR-15 with a 200 round belt wrapped around you.

    5.56 is a puny round that isn't particularly useful for committing crimes. The only reason they targeted it to begin with is because it looks scary.
    Did you mean "banana" magazine rather than "box" magazine? I would think that a "box magazine" would be o.k. since it's not "detachable".



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock Fan View Post
    Did you mean "banana" magazine rather than "box" magazine? I would think that a "box magazine" would be o.k. since it's not "detachable".



    gf

    Boy oh boy, I'm sure getting an education. Thanks everyone.

    Glock Fan, I didn't know the difference between a detachable box magazine and one that is not detachable so I went to Wiki Tiki Tavi. I thought that all box magazines were detachable. I guess that it's not quite so. They are both. This is what Wiki has to say:

    Box

    The most popular type of magazine in modern rifles and handguns, a box magazine stores cartridges in a column, either one above the other or staggered zigzag fashion. This zigzag stack is often identified by the misnomer double-column when in fact, it is a single, staggered column. As the firearm cycles, cartridges are moved to the top of the magazine via spring tension to either a single feed position or side-by-side feed positions. Box magazines may be integral to the firearm or removable.

    * An internal box or fixed magazine (also known as a blind box magazine when lacking a floorplate) is built into the firearm and is not easily removable. This type of magazine is found most often on bolt-action rifles. An internal box magazine is usually charged through the action, one round at a time. Military rifles often use stripper clips or chargers permitting multiple rounds, commonly 5 or 10 at a time, to be loaded at once. Some internal box magazines use en-bloc clips that are loaded into the magazine with the ammunition and that are ejected from the firearm when empty.

    Detachable box magazine for a SG 550.

    * A detachable box magazine is a self-contained mechanism capable of being loaded or unloaded while detached from the host firearm. They are attached via a slot in the firearm receiver usually below the action but occasionally to the side (FG42, Johnson LMG) or on top (Bren gun, FN P90). When the magazine is empty, it can be detached from the firearm and replaced by another full magazine. This significantly speeds the process of reloading, allowing the operator quick access to ammunition. This type of magazine may be straight or curved, the curve being necessary if the rifle uses rimmed ammunition or ammunition with a tapered case. Box magazines are often affixed to each other with clips, tape, straps, or otherwise, for quicker access.



    Then, according to this website, a banana clip is:

    The cartridges in the magazine are loaded into the firearm either automatically or manually depending on the type of gun, but almost always by a spring. Some magazines can in turn be loaded by a clip; contrary to the common misconception, clip and magazine are not synonymous terms. An example of this misuse is the use of the term banana clips to refer to curved box magazines. Although this particular phrase is more commonly used, the proper term would be banana magazine. The belt of linked ammunition used by most machine guns is also not a magazine.



    Would you agree with this?

    Next, is a banana clip like one that is used for an M16?

    Thanks for the education.

  8. #37
    wolfhunter Guest
    A 30 round AR magazine would be considered a banana magazine, although I usually think of the longer, more curved AK magazine when I hear the term.

  9. #38
    I have had more success turning the argument on its head (as it should be). Here is a post I used on another forum (no longer exists...could this approach be why?)

    "Our argument over assault weapons, and all the other second amendment rights is backwards. We are talking about a government that has only specifically delegated and enumerated powers. It only gets a say in those things we delegate it a say in. Everything else WE decide on.

    Our approach needs to be that the anti-gunners need to say why a given weapon or weapons system should NOT be available to anyone who can purchase it; not why should anyone be able to get x weapons system. Give me stats that prove an individual should not be able to own an 'x'. For example, "Where are the stats that so-called 'assault weapons' should not be available to anyone who wants to purchase them?"

    We are always giving reasons why people should have the freedom to do something. America was founded on the opposite idea.

    This approach does tend to win arguments.
    Last edited by FreedomsAdvocate; 12-06-2008 at 12:31 AM. Reason: grammars
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  10. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Glock Fan View Post
    Did you mean "banana" magazine rather than "box" magazine? I would think that a "box magazine" would be o.k. since it's not "detachable".



    gf
    I've always heard "fixed" or "internal" magazines for ones that are inside the firearm, and "box", "detachable" or "banana" magazine for ones that can be removed. "Box", as differentiating from something else, like a drum.

    The reason it can be called a "box magazine" is probably just exclusion - unless you're taking a rifle apart, a detachable box magazine is the most common type that would just be lying around.
    Last edited by toreskha; 12-05-2008 at 03:24 AM.
    Silent Running, by Mike and the Mechanics

  11. Quote Originally Posted by FreedomsAdvocate View Post
    I have had more success turning the argument on its head (as it should be). Here is a post I used on another forum (no longer exists...could this approach be why?)

    "Our argument over assault weapons, and all the other second amendment rights are backwards. We are talking about a government that has only specifically delegated and enumerated powers. It only gets a say in those things we delegate it a say in. Everything else WE decide on.

    Our approach needs to be that the anti-gunners need to say why a given weapon or weapons system should NOT be available to anyone who can purchase it; not why should anyone be able to get x weapons system. Give me stats that prove an individual should not be able to own an 'x'. For example, "Where are the stats that so-called 'assault weapons' should not be available to anyone who wants to purchase them?"

    We are always giving reasons why people should have the freedom to do something. America was founded on the opposite idea.

    This approach does tend to win arguments.
    +1! I certainly hope you haven't pattened this line of argument, because I'm going to start using it every chance I get! Basically, any type of firearm the antis want to ban is innocent until proven guilty!

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