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Thread: Bill Clinton’s Comment About Hillary’s Health Could End Her Chances of Winning

  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robgmn View Post
    I think you may be utterly lost in your own version of reality.
    In 2008, there were 4.7 million permits to carry issued in the US. The population was >320,000,000.
    I'll do the math for you: that's 1.2% of the population.
    Far from a majority.
    Far from significant.
    What do carry permits have to do with the number of Americans who are armed? Here, let me think that through for you since you're incapable of figuring it out for yourself: Not one damned thing, that's what.

    What does a "majority" have to do with fighting hot wars? Again, not one damned thing, but even 1.2% of 320mil is 3,840,000. As an armed force of committed and motivated fighting men and women, that is hardly an insignificant number

    Quote Originally Posted by Robgmn View Post
    It's a drop in the bucket if the government suddenly went "rogue" and wanted to squash the citizens.
    More like your above calculations are 100% irrelevant to how many armed Americans the government would have to face once the "squashing" started.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robgmn View Post
    The military would decimate the citizens with ease.
    You really haven't thought this through at all. Short of the government moving off-shore and somebody willing to order the nuking of the remaining population, nothing would come easy for either side in an all-out civil war.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robgmn View Post
    Despite what the 2A says, us gun owners are as far from a "well regulated militia" as we could get.
    "Us" gun owners are somewhere between 50 and 80 times as large a force as you erroneously calculated above. Nobody, including the government, has any more accurate estimates of armed Americans than 50 - 80 million. Even 1% of those willing to fight comes out to an army of 500,000 to 800,000*. Organized or not, it's a formidable number that no government on Earth could destroy without a long, protracted, brutal and bloody war which the "winner" of is hardly predictable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robgmn View Post
    We could only hope that if the government went rogue, the military (being comprised of "us") would not follow orders and would turn on the "controllers" like rabid dogs.
    Not only is the military comprised of us, but we are comprised of many of them, all of whom were trained identically, and who continue to train identically, as the loyalists they would face in a new civil war. Most of them have recent war-time experience. Many, if not most, are still young and strong enough to be highly effective in battle. The lines between us and them become much more murky when active duty fighters are facing their brothers in arms who have been discharged within the last couple of years. That's just one amongst hundreds of considerations that your post here fails miserably at taking into consideration.

    You really haven't thought any of this through. Your intransigence to study the issue, whether or not you support it, or are Stalin-esque in your opposition to it, has blinded you to seeking out and/or absorbing any of the myriad scholarship originating from both sides on the subject. Both government and anti-government scholars have been studying what the next civil war might look like since Lee surrendered to Grant at Appomattox 150 years ago, and nobody of any substance with two brain cells to rub together will agree with your assessments in the post I'm replying to. The advent of the internet exposes anyone clueless to such scholarship as intellectually vapid, drooling morons talkin' out of their backside when they attempt to predict what potential for victory for either side might exist in the total absence of knowledge of the available scholarship on the subject(s).

    The theory of "4th Generation Warfare" (4GW) is what you're missing. It's happening right now and our government is heavily involved in it in Afghanistan. Every war college in this country prepares its students for involvement in 4GW, just as every underground anti-government group studies and trains for it. Somehow, I have a hard time believing you've got an "in" to any pro or anti-government types of organizations providing you with understanding on the subject. You could not have posted with the depth of vapidity you did here if that were the case.

    A modern civil war in America would not be conducted by "modern" means. No government is going to nuke its own population, which is the only way they could "win" "easily."

    Please, think before you type. You're making me defend opsspec's position on this off-topic topic, and I'm as uncomfortable with that as I would be defending you on some topic or another. But the truth is the truth, and the post to which I am replying now was very nearly devoid of it. The only accurate truth that I saw was the notion that militia organization and readiness for battle that the Second Amendment contemplated is woefully lacking today. Otherwise, you missed every other bullet-point you pulled out of your backside by a hundred miles.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robgmn View Post
    Get your head out of the clouds and see reality for a change.
    Doctor, heal thyself!

    Blues
    Last edited by BluesStringer; 09-08-2016 at 12:17 PM. Reason: *Corrected erroneous math
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

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  3. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by opsspec1991 View Post
    If I thought that, I wouldn't have volunteered and gone to Vietnam, so your good money is forfeit.
    You're 100% full of crap.
    You really expect us to believe that if you are given the choice to either A) hand over your gun or B) die, you will gladly accept death?

    And, you failed to address your supposition that no one would stay in their home if the SHTF.

    Are you going to explain your blanket supposition that anyone would be able and willing to leave their home and live elsewhere at a moment's notice?

    Blues- I stand by my statements.
    In the hypothetical situation posited by Oopsspec, pit all of the gun owners in the country who are willing to fight against the fully armed and organized US Military.
    If you honestly think the unorganized citizen non-army would win the battle(s), then you live in as much of a dreamland as Oopsspec.

  4. #43
    I'm saying a whole lot of people would fight back, didn't they do that exactly during the revolutionary war or did you forget our history??????????
    The only easy day was yesterday
    Dedicated to my brother in law who died
    doing what he loved being a Navy SEAL

  5. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by opsspec1991 View Post
    I'm saying a whole lot of people would fight back, didn't they do that exactly during the revolutionary war or did you forget our history??????????
    So, you equate modern day warfare with civil war?
    Go ahead and fire your musket, while they send a missile down your chimney from 100 miles away.

    And don't forget to back up your theory that everyone will flee their homes and fight the revolution.
    Are you unwilling to back up what you say, unable to back up what you say, or do you just not care enough about it to interrupt posting yet more income-generating clickbait?

  6. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robgmn View Post
    Blues- I stand by my statements.
    In the hypothetical situation posited by Oopsspec, pit all of the gun owners in the country who are willing to fight against the fully armed and organized US Military.
    If you honestly think the unorganized citizen non-army would win the battle(s), then you live in as much of a dreamland as Oopsspec.
    Says the guy who already admitted he doesn't have the will or love of liberty to fight for it at that critical decision-making moment. Throughout time, men (and some women) have proved their willingness to die for much less haughty ideals than making themselves free, and even more have died in pursuit of that specific goal.

    You should read the whole of Patrick Henry's "give me liberty, or give me death" speech. Human thirst for freedom is as instinctual as self-preservation. One group of men holds one in higher pecking-order than the other, and for the other group, the inverse is true. Henry covered that human truism in the opening lines of his speech, which is one reason I picked that speech to draw your attention to specifically. Of course, the opposite reasoning from your own contained in the pull-quote line from that speech is the main reason I am using it, but still, it's important that you know, acknowledge and understand why it is that just because you hail from the part of humanity who concerns itself more with comfortable servitude than the animated and contested struggle for human freedom, doesn't mean that you're correct that all men will react with the same submission to servitude's attempted imposition as you have admitted you would, or will, as the case may be.

    If you're as physically lazy as you are intellectually lazy, then don't bother clicking on the above link. Instead, just click on the "Play" button below, sit back, close your eyes rather than read with them, and just listen to the defiant eloquence of a Patriot not to the Constitution that wasn't even in the works at the time he spoke these words, but a Patriot to human freedom, dignity and morality:





    Your willingness to speak for others when you haven't a clue of what ideals and principles are the driving forces of their lives is legion on this board. I would advise that you should stop while you're ahead, but too late, you already owe so many points you couldn't possibly dig yourself out of the hole you have put yourself in and simply get back to even, much less get ahead.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  7. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    Says the guy who already admitted he doesn't have the will or love of liberty to fight for it at that critical decision-making moment. Throughout time, men (and some women) have proved their willingness to die for much less haughty ideals than making themselves free, and even more have died in pursuit of that specific goal.

    Your willingness to speak for others when you haven't a clue of what ideals and principles are the driving forces of their lives is legion on this board. I would advise that you should stop while you're ahead, but too late, you already owe so many points you couldn't possibly dig yourself out of the hole you have put yourself in and simply get back to even, much less get ahead.

    Blues
    Not what I said.
    And if you had any capability for comprehension, you would know that.

    I said that if I was given the choice to hand over my gun and live, or keep my gun and die, I would choose to live.

    I did not say "keep my gun and live".
    The reason I did not say it is that in the scenario we are discussing, you don;t get to keep your gun and live.

    So, you would be happier dead with your gun in your holster, than alive with no gun ('cuz if you think you can go against the US military and survive, you are sadly mistaken)?
    So much for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"...

  8. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robgmn View Post
    Not what I said.
    And if you had any capability for comprehension, you would know that.

    I said that if I was given the choice to hand over my gun and live, or keep my gun and die, I would choose to live.

    I did not say "keep my gun and live".
    The reason I did not say it is that in the scenario we are discussing, you don;t get to keep your gun and live.

    So, you would be happier dead with your gun in your holster, than alive with no gun ('cuz if you think you can go against the US military and survive, you are sadly mistaken)?
    So much for "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness"...
    I have nothing at all to fear from death. Do I seek death? No. Would I be "happier" dead? No. Do I prefer death over subjugation? Abso-freakin'-lutely. Handing over literally anything that you legally own just because some "law" maker says it will be illegal to own tomorrow and they'll send their military to force you to if you resist, is the definition of submission to tyrants, which is a logical inference to take from what you said both earlier and your so-called "clarification" in this post.

    Has it occurred to you that if they send the US military to confiscate guns that the Constitution has already been repealed by fiat? I think that's quite possible that it could happen, even if not probable, though I don't think all your declarative statements about how it would go if they decide to do it hold a drop of water. How many men and women of the military are trained combat personnel? It's a lot less than you apparently imagine it is. All the biggest, baddest weapons at their disposal can be hacked and/or destroyed through conventional means, and like I said, many highly-trained vets that know how to accomplish such feats are out here among us. The human beings that comprise the US government are just as fallible as any members of any oligarchy throughout history that fell once they went full-tyranny on their population. Like any war, there would be "wins" and massive losses on both sides before stability sufficient to reset the government would emerge. The more dead, the more the living's motivation to continue the fight to make sure their compatriots didn't die for nothing. Win, lose or draw, both sides of a modern-day American civil war would prevail one day, lose the next, rinse and repeat for months, maybe years, before the futility of killing each other set into the whole collectives' mind and they quit fighting out of pure exhaustion, which is very close to accurately describing how our first so-called "civil war" ended.

    Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness can all only be relevant if the people the ideas apply to are free to pursue them. When anybody, local cops or the whole of the US government, starts confiscating our guns, we obviously would no longer be free to pursue them. I personally don't think we're free to pursue them now, at least not in the full measure those words were intended to establish when the Declaration was penned, but it's not so obvious to most people, so no shooting wars are on the foreseeable horizon. But start confiscating guns in wholesale fashion, and all bets are off. Millions will resist that, and many of those will be more than willing to die if necessary in pursuance of that resistance.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

  9. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by BluesStringer View Post
    I have nothing at all to fear from death. Do I seek death? No. Would I be "happier" dead? No. Do I prefer death over subjugation? Abso-freakin'-lutely. Handing over literally anything that you legally own just because some "law" maker says it will be illegal to own tomorrow and they'll send their military to force you to if you resist, is the definition of submission to tyrants, which is a logical inference to take from what you said both earlier and your so-called "clarification" in this post.

    Has it occurred to you that if they send the US military to confiscate guns that the Constitution has already been repealed by fiat? I think that's quite possible that it could happen, even if not probable, though I don't think all your declarative statements about how it would go if they decide to do it hold a drop of water. How many men and women of the military are trained combat personnel? It's a lot less than you apparently imagine it is. All the biggest, baddest weapons at their disposal can be hacked and/or destroyed through conventional means, and like I said, many highly-trained vets that know how to accomplish such feats are out here among us. The human beings that comprise the US government are just as fallible as any members of any oligarchy throughout history that fell once they went full-tyranny on their population. Like any war, there would be "wins" and massive losses on both sides before stability sufficient to reset the government would emerge. The more dead, the more the living's motivation to continue the fight to make sure their compatriots didn't die for nothing. Win, lose or draw, both sides of a modern-day American civil war would prevail one day, lose the next, rinse and repeat for months, maybe years, before the futility of killing each other set into the whole collectives' mind and they quit fighting out of pure exhaustion, which is very close to accurately describing how our first so-called "civil war" ended.

    Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness can all only be relevant if the people the ideas apply to are free to pursue them. When anybody, local cops or the whole of the US government, starts confiscating our guns, we obviously would no longer be free to pursue them. I personally don't think we're free to pursue them now, at least not in the full measure those words were intended to establish when the Declaration was penned, but it's not so obvious to most people, so no shooting wars are on the foreseeable horizon. But start confiscating guns in wholesale fashion, and all bets are off. Millions will resist that, and many of those will be more than willing to die if necessary in pursuance of that resistance.

    Blues
    In that case, it is probably time to end it all.
    You live under subjugation every day.

    Don't believe me? Go out and break a law.
    See how "free" you are.

  10. #49
    So your saying because we have laws were being subjugated every day? Without certain laws all there would be is anarchy and chaos. Laws keep us safe pure and simple.
    The only easy day was yesterday
    Dedicated to my brother in law who died
    doing what he loved being a Navy SEAL

  11. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robgmn View Post
    In that case, it is probably time to end it all.
    You live under subjugation every day.

    Don't believe me? Go out and break a law.
    See how "free" you are.
    I just got home from breaking the "law." Rode my Harley to town and was doin' close to 90 on the way home once I got on the highway that takes me to my dirt road. Nobody got hurt, nobody's ever been hurt by my breaking the traffic "laws" on an almost deserted highway, and even if a cop stopped me on that road, odds are he wouldn't write me for it, and if he did, he'd likely write it for 5 over and tell me to slow down. Even if he wrote me for 90 though, I am free to break the law as long as I'm willing also to accept the consequences if caught and/or charged. I'm also free to ignore court dates and/or fines and eventually face consequences for those expressions of defiance to the "law." But sorry, I am not going to commit suicide by cop over a traffic ticket, or even over a rights violation for which there is a grievance process in place for me to be compensated for the violation. We weren't talking about that anyway though, your propensity to take things so far off-track just to "win" an internet argument notwithstanding. We were talking about the government going to peoples' homes and stealing their private property on the ridiculous pretense that they're acting in a lawful manner by doing so because some tyrant somewhere just said so. That would be the same tyrant that you said you'd bend over and grab your ankles for, which is a euphemism for you saying you'd give 'em your gun(s) before facing forced, violent confiscation. In other words, you would volunteer to give up your freedom, whereas, I would not in that specific instance. No craps given for the consequences that might ensue from my protecting my own home and the private property contained within it over here. I've been committed to that philosophy for well over 40 years. Your glib distractions and quips are not up to the task of making me second-guess myself on that score, believe you me.

    As much as you'd love it if I did, I'm not gonna be ending it all anytime soon.

    Blues
    No one has ever heard me say that I "hate" cops, because I don't. This is why I will never trust one again though: You just never know...

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