Seems like we're losing more of our rights every day
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Thread: Seems like we're losing more of our rights every day

  1. #1
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    Angry Seems like we're losing more of our rights every day

    The next question we need to ask is "What justifies reasonable suspicion?"


    gf

    Supreme Court Says Passengers Can Be Frisked: Top News Stories at Officer.com


    Supreme Court Says Passengers Can Be Frisked

    Posted: Monday, January 26, 2009
    Updated: January 26th, 2009 12:20 PM GMT-05:00


    The Associated Press

    WASHINGTON --

    The Supreme Court ruled Monday that police officers have leeway to frisk a passenger in a car stopped for a traffic violation even if nothing indicates the passenger has committed a crime or is about to do so.

    The court on Monday unanimously overruled an Arizona appeals court that threw out evidence found during such an encounter.

    The case involved a 2002 pat-down search of an Eloy, Ariz., man by an Oro Valley police officer, who found a gun and marijuana.

    The justices accepted Arizona's argument that traffic stops are inherently dangerous for police and that pat-downs are permissible when an officer has a reasonable suspicion that the passenger may be armed and dangerous.

    The pat-down is allowed if the police "harbor reasonable suspicion that a person subjected to the frisk is armed, and therefore dangerous to the safety of the police and public," Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg said.

    ___

    The case is Arizona v. Johnson, 07-1122.
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

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  3. #2
    this is what makes cops the seem like the BG and undermine our Constitution.the way peaple view authority will be greatly harmed.
    Let every soul be subject unto the [U.S. Constitution.] For there is no [Constitution] but of God: the [Constitution] that be [is] ordained of God. Whosoever therefore resisteth the [Constitution], resisteth the ordinance of God:American Romans Ch.13v1-7 C.Baldwin

  4. #3
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    I understand that traffic stops are dangerous. I feel that it's "reasonable" to frisk the driver during a traffic stop unless it was the passenger causing the infraction in which case it would be "reasonable" to frisk both the passenger and the driver. (If a passenger is witnessed littering or not wearing a seat belt would be a couple of instances that come to mind.) If the driver is the one causing the law violation (speeding, failure to stop, failure to signal, etc.) then it should be only the driver that would be subject to search unless the passenger gives "good reason". An example would be a passenger making comments like "we shoot cops", etc. I'm not for this automatic freebie "search everyone" possibility. There are many overzealous cops (like here in PRHI) that would take this opportunity to prone out a car full of otherwise law abiding citizens simply because "they can" and under the guise of "officer safety" for a car being pulled over for something as simple as a burnt out tail lamp.

    The problem with these rulings is that they don't clarify what "reasonable suspicion" or "armed and dangerous" means. Can an officer feel the passenger is "dangerous" because they carry defensive pepper spray? These are the kinds of questions that are bound to come up in defense of searches based on rulings like these.



    gf
    "A few well placed shots with a .22LR is a lot better than a bunch of solid misses with a .44 mag!" Glock Armorer, NRA Chief RSO, Pistol, Rifle, Shotgun, Muzzleloading Rifle, Muzzleloading Shotgun, and Home Firearm Safety Training Counselor

  5. #4
    I tend to agree with GlockFan. Many LEO's are killed during "routine" traffic stops. The questionable area is reasonable suspicion. I'm not convinced that someone doing 10 miles over the speed limit is reasonable, however, there may be extenuating circumstances that gives good cause. Being patted down doesn't strike me as a violation of my rights (unless the officer gets a little to frisky ). I have always been more concerned with victims rights than a criminals. If you get pulled over for speeding and drugs are found they should be usable for evidence.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    I tend to agree with GlockFan. Many LEO's are killed during "routine" traffic stops. The questionable area is reasonable suspicion. I'm not convinced that someone doing 10 miles over the speed limit is reasonable, however, there may be extenuating circumstances that gives good cause. Being patted down doesn't strike me as a violation of my rights (unless the officer gets a little to frisky ). I have always been more concerned with victims rights than a criminals. If you get pulled over for speeding and drugs are found they should be usable for evidence.
    Are there any statistics to show how many officers are killed, or even wounded, in traffic stops versus the number of stops? If i recall correctly the most recent figures available show more officers killed in automobile accidents than in the line of duty incidents of all kinds. Yes traffic stops are dangerous, but it seems a bit odd to assert that any and all stops are potentially life threatening --- not much trust in the vast majority of the citizenry there.
    John - KJ4NSE
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  7. #6
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    Look at it from the LEO's point of view. You stop a car with three people. The driver was speeding, and the other two guys aren't obviously guilty of anything, but they do seem pretty shifty for some reason you can't put your finger on. There's no reasonable suspicion, but you're really worried about the possibility of facing three armed men.

    Quote Originally Posted by johnsteele View Post
    Are there any statistics to show how many officers are killed, or even wounded, in traffic stops versus the number of stops? If i recall correctly the most recent figures available show more officers killed in automobile accidents than in the line of duty incidents of all kinds. Yes traffic stops are dangerous, but it seems a bit odd to assert that any and all stops are potentially life threatening --- not much trust in the vast majority of the citizenry there.
    Statistically, we're all far and away more likely to die in a car accident, a heart attack, etc than a violent encounter. And yet, we assert our Second Amendment rights. Why? Because self-defense is a God-given right, and that goes for LEOs too.
    Silent Running, by Mike and the Mechanics

  8. Quote Originally Posted by johnsteele View Post
    Are there any statistics to show how many officers are killed, or even wounded, in traffic stops versus the number of stops? If i recall correctly the most recent figures available show more officers killed in automobile accidents than in the line of duty incidents of all kinds. Yes traffic stops are dangerous, but it seems a bit odd to assert that any and all stops are potentially life threatening --- not much trust in the vast majority of the citizenry there.
    A LEO who does not always believe that there is a clear and present danger in everything he does while on duty, is waiting to be shot or attacked.

    I personally know of 4 LEO's who have been shot on simple ordinary stops or home checks.

    One DPS officer on AZ went up to a car for speeding on I40 in Flagstaff, AZ, As she approached she turned to make sure that there was no oncoming traffic, in that split second the man jumped out and emptied a 1911 .45 into her. Luckily she was wearing body armour. He jumped into his car and as he sped off she regained her breath and emptied her gun into the speeding car, wounding him. He was caught a few miles down the road.

    Another the LEO was approaching the House that a woman was crying on the porch. He stopped to see what was up. a man came from inside and shot him

    Just 2 weeks ago a LEO here several door down was responding to a call from a home owner that her summer house might have a squatter in it. The officer parked his car and as he approached the house the squatter opened the door and unloaded his gun at him. The officer was wounded twice once in the shoulder that exited his elbow and in the hip. Luckily he was wearing body armor. As he was recovering from the attack the squatter went to his car and retrieved a double barrel shotgun, the LEO emptied his service weapon into the subject hitting him numerous times.

    LEO's who grow old on the job do so because they assume that everyone is a threat, every stop could be dangerous.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by johnsteele View Post
    Are there any statistics to show how many officers are killed, or even wounded, in traffic stops versus the number of stops? If i recall correctly the most recent figures available show more officers killed in automobile accidents than in the line of duty incidents of all kinds. Yes traffic stops are dangerous, but it seems a bit odd to assert that any and all stops are potentially life threatening --- not much trust in the vast majority of the citizenry there.
    Maybe the following will help. There are many, many more:

    http://www.officer.com/web/online/Officer-Down-News/New-York-Officer-Killed-During-Traffic-Stop/2$35692

    MyFox Houston | Houston Police Officer Shot, Killed During Traffic Stop

    Florida Police Officer Killed During Traffic Stop Anything & Everything

    UPD officer killed during traffic stop (Ole Miss Police Officer)

    http://www.officer.com/web/online/Officer-Down-News/California-Officer-Shot--Killed-during-Traffic-Stop/2$34119

  10. #9
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    Traffic stops are the most dangerous IMO. LEO's are most vulnerable in these situations. You have two major threats during a traffic stop. First you have motorists who are talking on cell phones, texting, reading the paper, brushing their teeth or drinking while driving... then you have the criminal element who does not want to get caught and will take their chances by trying to kill you. I was taught to approach from the passenger side and to stop at the pillar or blind spot and request documents. One, I am out of the roadway and two, an armed criminal would have to shoot through the pillar or blind spot to shoot me. I am right handed so this position gives me more of an edge, allowing me to blade and shoot through the open window while maintaining cover behind the pillar. I am sure different agencies have differing policies but this one works well for our department.

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