Concealed Carry Reciprocity is CURRENTLY banned under Federal Law. (Important) - Page 12
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Thread: Concealed Carry Reciprocity is CURRENTLY banned under Federal Law. (Important)

  1. #111
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    Yes, and some of them are quite comical, yet some are down right scary..........................!

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Big Z View Post
    The provisions have been amended to protect LAW ABIDING ccw people here in TN.

    The law we are discussing is a a Federal Law, not a State law. I assume you have a Tennessee permit. If you travel outside of Tennessee you become subject to this Federal Law and can not legally drive within 1000 feet of any K-12 school. Remember, we have overlapping jurisdictions in the United States. States have jurisdiction, but so does the Federal Government. If you want to be a truly law abiding CCW holder, you will respect both Federal and State law. Federal Gun Free School Zones Act 1995 will not allow you to legally carry within 1000 feet of a school outside of the State that physically issued your permit.

  4. #113
    I cannot deny that the law exists nor can I deny that it is not enforced. It is a screwed up situtation that could cause someone lots of money and grief along with their family. I have also seen and heard of it being enforced and people prosecuted under this law so it is something to be aware of. However in every case that I have heard or read about it was not the primary action that caused the problem, rather a secondary action that for some reason may have gotten moved to the front.

    In SC anyone that can own a gun can carry it in the glove box in their car. If they do not have a CWP then evey time they drive past the five schools that I drive by on the way to work each morning they are breaking the law. To me the talk about this law is not necessarily FUD but for most of us is not a real concern. However if you do want to OC while strolling down the sidewalks then you need to be aware of where you are and not bring attention to yourself. In at least one case that I know of the OC'er was stopped and refused to cooperate with LEO, rather kept proclaiming his rights. I am not saying anything against that at all but if you demand your rights you need to be right. One of the officers thought about the school nearby and he wound up being convicted of the afformentioned law as it was measured to be only 990' from the school.

    As a Sheriff once told me that as far as he was concerned as long as you behaved yourself he didn't really care. I think most LEO are the same way. Unfortunately I can't say that all are.

  5. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle2009 View Post
    The law we are discussing is a a Federal Law, not a State law. I assume you have a Tennessee permit. If you travel outside of Tennessee you become subject to this Federal Law and can not legally drive within 1000 feet of any K-12 school. Remember, we have overlapping jurisdictions in the United States. States have jurisdiction, but so does the Federal Government. If you want to be a truly law abiding CCW holder, you will respect both Federal and State law. Federal Gun Free School Zones Act 1995 will not allow you to legally carry within 1000 feet of a school outside of the State that physically issued your permit.
    That's not always the case. You are arguing absolutes when in fact the law is not absolute.

    "(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone."

    If you are just driving through one of our large cities, is it reasonable for you to know where all of the hundreds of schools are? This federal law is rarely if ever enforced unless the gun is discharged, so if you are going to argue the point so strenuously about it, you need to fully understand it.

  6. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stiofan View Post
    ...if you are going to argue the point so strenuously about it, you need to fully understand it.
    What? Are you kidding? That would require common sense and rational thought!

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Stiofan View Post
    knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone."

    This was discussed earlier in the post. Your quoting of the law is accurate, however you must understand what "reasonable cause to believe" means in the legal sense. Legally, it means that a "reasonable person" in your situation would believe they were within 1000 feet of the property line of a school. Even if you honestly had no idea you were near a school, a judge could still convict you under the "reasonable person standard" if they felt you should have known.

    For example, If you are driving on the Interstate at night in a location you've never been to and there is a school in the forest 999 feet away, you and your lawyer have a good defense in front of the judge.


    On the other hand, if you frequent the location, or you are driving right by the school, the court will reject your argument. After all, a "reasonable" driver is expected to maintain awareness of their surroundings and watch for potential hazards. School speed limit zones are very clearly marked, and a "reasonable" driver exercises caution in these zones because they know a school is nearby, and children may be present.

    Since the law is rarely enforced, and you would rather violate it than amend it, perhaps you'd like to volunteer to be our test case?

  8. #117
    Quote Originally Posted by Eagle2009 View Post
    Here is an example of how a "law-abiding" CCW holder could be arrested under this Federal law.


    Situation: DUI Checkpoint set up in front of a Texas school; Missouri Permit Holder on vacation with family to Six Flags Amusement Park in Texas.


    Texas State Police: "Hello sir, have you had anything to drink this evening?"

    Missouri CCW: "No sir, I would never drink and drive, my family is too important to me. Also, Texas law requires me to inform you that I am currently in possession of a concealed handgun."

    Texas State Police: "Do you have a permit?"

    Missouri CCW: "Yes sir, I have a Missouri permit."

    Texas State Police: "Do you also have a Texas permit?"

    Missouri CCW: "No sir, Texas law gives my Missouri CCW the same privileges given to a Texas CCW."

    ATF Agent: "Sir, step out of the car, you're under arrest for GFSZA 1995."

    Missouri CCW: "What?"

    ATF Agent: "Sir, step out of the car right now, or I'll add resisting arrest. You're already facing five years, don't make it any worse for yourself."
    Quote Originally Posted by G50AE View Post
    Does anyone see the Fifth Amendment violation taking place here?
    For those of you who have missed it, the Texas law requiring the Missouri CCW holder to inform the officer that he is carrying violates the citizen's fifth amendment rights. The law cannot require a citizen to admit that they are violating a law, be it federal or state.

  9. #118
    Quote Originally Posted by Stiofan View Post
    That's not always the case. You are arguing absolutes when in fact the law is not absolute.

    "(A) It shall be unlawful for any individual knowingly to possess a firearm that has moved in or that otherwise affects interstate or foreign commerce at a place that the individual knows, or has reasonable cause to believe, is a school zone."

    If you are just driving through one of our large cities, is it reasonable for you to know where all of the hundreds of schools are? This federal law is rarely if ever enforced unless the gun is discharged, so if you are going to argue the point so strenuously about it, you need to fully understand it.
    if you drive by one of these you might have an uphill battle arguing you didn't know.


  10. #119
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    Quote Originally Posted by G50AE View Post
    For those of you who have missed it, the Texas law requiring the Missouri CCW holder to inform the officer that he is carrying violates the citizen's fifth amendment rights. The law cannot require a citizen to admit that they are violating a law, be it federal or state.
    No but under Terry vs. Ohio if the officer can articulate that he thought a crime was afoot he can do a surface pat down and find your weapon. Then where are you? You broke a law but kept your mouth shut.Now he has you anyway. But go ahead and assert your 5th amendment rights by all means.

    Which is worse?

    See Terry vs. Ohio

  11. If you don't notify the Texas officer that you are carrying, you are breaking Texas State law and can be locked up by the State. If you do tell him, you are complying with State law, but are admitting to violating Federal law, and can be locked up in Federal prison. So I guess the question is, would you prefer to be locked up in State prison, or Federal prison? If you don't notify, and are discovered, you can be locked up in both.

    As Swinokur mentioned, officers are allowed to do patdowns.


    Texas State Police: Sir, do you have any guns in the vehicle tonight?

    Missouri CCW: I refuse to answer that question on the 5th amendment grounds that it may incriminate me

    Texas State Police: That's your right to exercise Sir, but I'm going to ask you to step out of the car. Terry vs Ohio allows me to pat you down for my safety

    (finds gun)

    Texas State Police "HE'S GOT A GUN!!!!!"

    (All Officers/Agents at DUI Checkpoint draw their guns on permit holder and throw him to the ground.)


    Texas State Police: Do you have a permit?

    Missouri CCW: I have a Missouri permit

    Texas State Police: Sir, I'm placing you under arrest for violating Texas' Mandatory Notification Law. You're lucky you didn't get shot.

    ATF Agent: I'm also placing you under arrest for violating the Federal Gun Free School Zones Act of 1995

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