Rebuttal To Harvard's 2A Opinion
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Thread: Rebuttal To Harvard's 2A Opinion

  1. #1

    Rebuttal To Harvard's 2A Opinion

    It seems we're not the only one's to disagree with Harvard's opinion of the 2A.

    http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12379

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  3. #2

    2nd Amendment

    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    It seems we're not the only one's to disagree with Harvard's opinion of the 2A.

    http://www.spectator.org/dsp_article.asp?art_id=12379

    Last paragraph states that the left is beginning to understand that the 2nd amendment is an individual right. Now if they could get it into their heads that rights come from God and not government.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Last paragraph states that the left is beginning to understand that the 2nd amendment is an individual right. Now if they could get it into their heads that rights come from God and not government.
    Which god? This is a secular nation of laws. If Christian values were to be the foundation of our society, we would have a government of clerics like Iran. Instead we have a legal, binding social contract (the constitution) that every person of every faith can look to for protection.

    I most often hear Constitutional arguments employed in defense of the right to bear arms, and I hope it stays that way. The Constitution is what we all can agree on as americans.
    Truth is mighty and will prevail. There is nothing the matter with this, except that it ain't so.

    -Mark Twain

  5. #4

    God

    Quote Originally Posted by ishi View Post
    Which god? This is a secular nation of laws. If Christian values were to be the foundation of our society, we would have a government of clerics like Iran. Instead we have a legal, binding social contract (the constitution) that every person of every faith can look to for protection.

    I most often hear Constitutional arguments employed in defense of the right to bear arms, and I hope it stays that way. The Constitution is what we all can agree on as americans.

    I think not. Our nation was not founded as a secular nation. A careful study of the writtings of the founding fathers proves that, including the Decleration of Independence as well as many other quotes. We may have moved in that direction but we never started out that way and because we have moved away from God is the main reason we are in the mess we are in today.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  6. #5
    The only writing relevant to this issue is the Constitution itself. If our nation truly was intended to be ruled on Christian principles, that would be made explicit in the Constitution, the blueprint of governance. The only explicit statement about religion concerns the freedom of each to practice their faith without obstruction by the government. It says nothing about Christianity, nor does it mention any particular religion by name.

    A Constitution founded on Christian principles would look much different. One could expect a severely curtailed first amendment which does not support cursing or blasphemies, structures to allow direct religious control of government, and all kinds of changes. It would look a lot like Iran.

    I'm glad we have what we have instead. It's a good system.
    Truth is mighty and will prevail. There is nothing the matter with this, except that it ain't so.

    -Mark Twain

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    I think not. Our nation was not founded as a secular nation. A careful study of the writtings of the founding fathers proves that, including the Decleration of Independence as well as many other quotes. We may have moved in that direction but we never started out that way and because we have moved away from God is the main reason we are in the mess we are in today.
    I don't want to get a debate started. I just wanted to simply say I agree with this statement.

    Maybe, the antis are beginning to understand what he second amendment really says, even though they do not agree with it.
    David

    The only person available to protect you 24 hours a day is you.

  8. #7
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    Harvards 2A opinion and 2A Rights

    The Harvard opinin piece does clearly NOT understand that "We are Endowed by Our Creator with Certain Inalienable Rights" (U.S. Declaration of Independence). Government, secular or religious, does not "Endow Certain Inalienalble Rightst", those Rights exist for all people ("Right of the People"), except when they are denied by government (tyrany). You can say secular all day long, it does not reflect the writings of the Founding Fathers. The main thing, secular or religious, is to forever treasure and protect those Rights that were bought for us with blood and treasure.
    Respectfully - sailor

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by ishi View Post
    Which god? This is a secular nation of laws. If Christian values were to be the foundation of our society, we would have a government of clerics like Iran. Instead we have a legal, binding social contract (the constitution) that every person of every faith can look to for protection.

    I most often hear Constitutional arguments employed in defense of the right to bear arms, and I hope it stays that way. The Constitution is what we all can agree on as americans.
    + 1 (Maybe he meant Allah? )

  10. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    I think not. Our nation was not founded as a secular nation. A careful study of the writtings of the founding fathers proves that, including the Decleration of Independence as well as many other quotes. We may have moved in that direction but we never started out that way and because we have moved away from God is the main reason we are in the mess we are in today.
    Adulterated hog wash. A careful study of the writings of the founding fathers proves the exact opposite of what you say. Washington, Jefferson, in fact none of the better known founding fathers was Christian.

    Let's start with Thomas Jefferson:

    "And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter."

    "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

    "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

    "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

    How about John Adams? He wrote:

    "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

    "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

    "But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

    or James Madison who wrote:

    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

    "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774

    "...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819

    "Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

    Not exactly a founding father, but here is what Abraham Lincoln had to say on the subject.

    ""The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

    These wise men had seen the negative effects on freedom caused by religions in Europe and wanted no part of it. Even more to the point they had seen the effects in colonial America when the early states even passed laws requiring the execution of people who dared to practice a faith other than the approved faith of their own state.

    You Sir, have been brain washed by the very people our founding fathers warned against.

  11. #10
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    Rights of the People

    Quote Originally Posted by Puppy View Post
    Adulterated hog wash. A careful study of the writings of the founding fathers proves the exact opposite of what you say. Washington, Jefferson, in fact none of the better known founding fathers was Christian.

    Let's start with Thomas Jefferson:

    "And the day will come, when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as His Father, in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva, in the brain of Jupiter."

    "Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites."

    "I do not find in orthodox Christianity one redeeming feature."

    "Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies."

    How about John Adams? He wrote:

    "The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity."

    "The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion." Treaty of Tripoly, article 11

    "But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed."

    "History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government. This marks the lowest grade of ignorance of which their civil as well as religious leaders will always avail themselves for their own purposes."

    or James Madison who wrote:

    "During almost fifteen centuries has the legal establishment of Christianity been on trial. What has been its fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry, and persecution."

    "In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people."

    "Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise." April 1, 1774

    "...the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people, have been manifestly increased by the total separation of the church from the State" Letter to Robert Walsh, Mar. 2, 1819

    "Every new and successful example, therefore, of a perfect separation between the ecclesiastical and civil matters, is of importance; and I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Government will both exist in greater purity the less they are mixed together" Letter to Edward Livingston, July 10, 1822

    Not exactly a founding father, but here is what Abraham Lincoln had to say on the subject.

    ""The Bible is not my book nor Christianity my profession. I could never give assent to the long, complicated statements of Christian dogma."

    These wise men had seen the negative effects on freedom caused by religions in Europe and wanted no part of it. Even more to the point they had seen the effects in colonial America when the early states even passed laws requiring the execution of people who dared to practice a faith other than the approved faith of their own state.

    You Sir, have been brain washed by the very people our founding fathers warned against.
    I feel that the above quotes miss the mark of the OP discussion, in that they are quoting feelings about RELIGIOUS DOGMA that the stated Founding Fathers had. The enduring documents that they did write use (for instance, and not all inclusive) the terms "the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them" and "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, ..." (Declaration of Independence - written by Thomas Jefferson). Just an obvious example of the larger frame of reference that specifically Thomas Jefferson had, beyond his problems with church dogma. The point being, there was considered that there is something more than government involved with a persons Rights (Nature's God; and, their Creator) - unalienalble belonging to you, without reservation, without the governments OK. That is the basis for refuting the Harvard opinion, nothing to do with religion or not, or do you feel that we do NOT have Unalienable Rights, seperate from government?
    sailor

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