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Thread: reason you should support Health Care Reform

  1. Let's not forget, Repeal HIPPA.

    Also, capitalism, when left to its own devices, inevitably results in corruption, followed by opression of the sheep and supression of the rest of us. Capitalism needs to be controlled, just like everything else.
    Why are CEOs making 300 times average worker pay (at our most prosporous, it was, I believe, 50 times), and taking HUGE bonuses while (or for) laying off people and driving their companies into the ground? Liberty, equality, and fair play need to be regulated into the system.

    There are laws and rules that restrict freedom, and laws that enforce it.
    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
    Robert A. Heinlein

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  3. #32
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    I've had enough of the liberal's crap for a lifetime. It's time to flush the tollett.

  4. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfling68 View Post
    Let's not forget, Repeal HIPPA.

    Also, capitalism, when left to its own devices, inevitably results in corruption, followed by oppression of the sheep and suppression of the rest of us. Capitalism needs to be controlled, just like everything else.
    Why are CEOs making 300 times average worker pay (at our most prosperous, it was, I believe, 50 times), and taking HUGE bonuses while (or for) laying off people and driving their companies into the ground? Liberty, equality, and fair play need to be regulated into the system.

    There are laws and rules that restrict freedom, and laws that enforce it.
    I beg to differ. First I would like to hear your definition of corruption. Where there is corruption, you can bet there is some sort of government meddling. Capitalism left to it's own devices regulates and corrects itself through competition, but ONLY if it is truly allowed to do so. What we see today is far from free market capitalism, and look where we are. And to say capitalism needs to be controlled like everything else is oxymoronic. (is that even a word?) Government control and true capitalism are mutually exclusive.

    As for CEOs, they make so much more than the average worker because they are more valuable to the company than the average worker. Don't like to hear that? Take the average worker and put him in an upper level corporate position and see how long he lasts there. As for bonuses, those are in the contracts. If certain criteria are met, they get the bonus.

    BTW, judging by you wording, I'm assuming that you are referring to the auto industry and/or the banking industry. Please tell me you don't believe that these were examples of unfettered capitalism.
    The two enemies of the people are criminals and government, so let us tie the second down with the chains of the Constitution so the second will not become the legalized version of the first. - Thomas Jefferson

  5. Quote Originally Posted by utimmer43 View Post
    I beg to differ. First I would like to hear your definition of corruption. Where there is corruption, you can bet there is some sort of government meddling. Capitalism left to it's own devices regulates and corrects itself through competition, but ONLY if it is truly allowed to do so. What we see today is far from free market capitalism, and look where we are. And to say capitalism needs to be controlled like everything else is oxymoronic. (is that even a word?) Government control and true capitalism are mutually exclusive.

    As for CEOs, they make so much more than the average worker because they are more valuable to the company than the average worker. Don't like to hear that? Take the average worker and put him in an upper level corporate position and see how long he lasts there. As for bonuses, those are in the contracts. If certain criteria are met, they get the bonus.

    BTW, judging by you wording, I'm assuming that you are referring to the auto industry and/or the banking industry. Please tell me you don't believe that these were examples of unfettered capitalism.
    In reverse order, no I am not specifically referring to auto or banking industry, although I believe they both contain examples of what I am talking to. We can also look at energy companies, Tyco, etc, etc.

    CEOs are worth more, hmmmm, not as a person. OK, we are talking about salary. Regarding your average worker example, most of the people I work with would do just fine. Why is a guy who drives a company into the ground still getting multi-million dollar bonuses? Yes, they should earn more money than a janitor, but should their pay be 300 times the pay of the people who produce the product? . And compensation has gone from about $2 mil to over $15 mil since 1989. Has your salary gone up 800% in the last 20 years? Why are American CEOs paid over 2.5 times what their European counterparts are paid? I have no problem with CEOs or anyone else making as much money as they can, I have a problem with it being done at the expense of others. Making money by driving someone else into the ground is not acceptable behavior. I would love to see CEOs making 15 million, but having them take their employees along with them. And I have never gotten a job from a poor person.

    Unfettered Capitalism: Because when left to its own devices, capitialism is driven by greed, greed is a sin, and the wages of sin is death. Why do we need anti-trust laws? Why did we need unions (the problem with unions is they are as greedy and corrupt as management). When given a chance, capitalism will eventually kill competition as the strongest company drives the weaker companies out of business. While it is possible 2 equally strong companies will emerge and compete with each other, history has shown this to be the exception, rather than the rule. Even when they do, they tend to engage in anti-competative practices such as price fixing. Large companies will run at a loss to drive smaller competitors out of business. Even today, large companies will sue smaller, less well funded companies out of existence. I know a person who has had patents stolen and was unable to do anything about it due to legal costs and the offending company's deep pockets. Capitalism needs to have regulations to keep it from destroying competition, in the US, we call these antitrust laws and regulations.

    I am not against Capitalism. I just understand it does need a certain amount of regulation to keep it from destroying itself.
    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
    Robert A. Heinlein

  6. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfling68 View Post
    In reverse order, no I am not specifically referring to auto or banking industry, although I believe they both contain examples of what I am talking to. We can also look at energy companies, Tyco, etc, etc.

    CEOs are worth more, hmmmm, not as a person. OK, we are talking about salary. Regarding your average worker example, most of the people I work with would do just fine. Why is a guy who drives a company into the ground still getting multi-million dollar bonuses? Yes, they should earn more money than a janitor, but should their pay be 300 times the pay of the people who produce the product? . And compensation has gone from about $2 mil to over $15 mil since 1989. Has your salary gone up 800% in the last 20 years? Why are American CEOs paid over 2.5 times what their European counterparts are paid? I have no problem with CEOs or anyone else making as much money as they can, I have a problem with it being done at the expense of others. Making money by driving someone else into the ground is not acceptable behavior. I would love to see CEOs making 15 million, but having them take their employees along with them. And I have never gotten a job from a poor person.

    Unfettered Capitalism: Because when left to its own devices, capitialism is driven by greed, greed is a sin, and the wages of sin is death. Why do we need anti-trust laws? Why did we need unions (the problem with unions is they are as greedy and corrupt as management). When given a chance, capitalism will eventually kill competition as the strongest company drives the weaker companies out of business. While it is possible 2 equally strong companies will emerge and compete with each other, history has shown this to be the exception, rather than the rule. Even when they do, they tend to engage in anti-competative practices such as price fixing. Large companies will run at a loss to drive smaller competitors out of business. Even today, large companies will sue smaller, less well funded companies out of existence. I know a person who has had patents stolen and was unable to do anything about it due to legal costs and the offending company's deep pockets. Capitalism needs to have regulations to keep it from destroying competition, in the US, we call these antitrust laws and regulations.

    I am not against Capitalism. I just understand it does need a certain amount of regulation to keep it from destroying itself.
    As long as the regulation does not come from a Unconstitutional Big Federal or State Government...

    Regulation = Big Government

    Give them an inch and they will take a mile...

    We need to get back to the principals this country was founded on; small-limited government, and self-reliance...

    "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." - Edmund Burke

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Bohemian View Post
    As long as the regulation does not come from a Unconstitutional Big Federal or State Government..."Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it." - Edmund Burke
    "Regulation = Big Government"

    There are laws that restrict freedom, and laws that ensure it

    "Give them an inch and they will take a mile..."

    True of CEOs, management, labor, government, etc. (and probably most of us) They must all be reigned in!!

    "We need to get back to the principals this country was founded on; small-limited government, and self-reliance..."

    YEP!!! Our Founding Fathers also knew the dangers of large multinational corporations and worked to prevent them from gaining too much power as well (Think th East India Trading Companies, etc.)

    Sorry about not highlighting correctly
    You can have peace. Or you can have freedom. Don't ever count on having both at once.
    Robert A. Heinlein

  8. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Wolfling68 View Post
    "Regulation = Big Government"

    There are laws that restrict freedom, and laws that ensure it

    "Give them an inch and they will take a mile..."

    True of CEOs, management, labor, government, etc. (and probably most of us) They must all be reigned in!!

    "We need to get back to the principals this country was founded on; small-limited government, and self-reliance..."

    YEP!!! Our Founding Fathers also knew the dangers of large multinational corporations and worked to prevent them from gaining too much power as well (Think th East India Trading Companies, etc.)

    Sorry about not highlighting correctly
    Some Interesting Further Reading On The East India Trading Company And How It Sparked The Start Of The American Revolution:
    East India Company - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  9. #38
    Join Date
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    Don't know who you are JW but every site has one. You've spewed your defecation, push some buttons and had a laugh. Glad to see you have taken a stance, although probably squat. BUT will not ever reply to one of your post again. Thanks for reaffirming why we need to keep vigilant, even on this web site.

  10. #39
    If your aim was to destroy the USA from within you couldn't have done it better. Might even cause some states to secede and a new civil war. Has to be a communist plot.
    Avidshooter (Texas)
    "The real destroyer of the liberties of the people is he who spreads among them bounties, donations and benefits." -- Plutarch

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by jwtollett21 View Post
    1. Your Premiums may go down as a result of the uninsured that currently get treated and never pay for their services used. The hospitals and govenment have to absorb these costs. We are currently paying more taxes because of this.

    2. You could get paid more at work as health care expenses go up the companies shift cost to the workers or cut back in other ways. If the bill will control cost your employer will be able to give you some more money.

    3. Peace of mind. Say you have health insurance now, your healthy and have a great job. But say something happens to you and you debvelop a medical condition and for some reason have to change jobs or become self employed. You might or will be denyed coverage.

    4. Emergency Room waits would be shorter because your uninsured use these doctors for their primary care doctors which makes the people who have insurance thats their have to wait longer.

    5. Small business will benefit due to reform creating subsidies to help them pay for insurance for their employees. This would also boost the economy.

    6. Plan will not add to the federal deficit says chairman of the senate finance committee

    Folks the time for health care reform has come. Whether you agree with Barack Obama or the GOP lets work together to come up with a plan. The USA is ranked 37th in the world by the world health organization. We should be #1. This is America please put the petty politics aside and lets be positive and due something that will benefit this great nation. 46 million people are uninsured we must do something about this.
    Really? Where did you get your talking points? Did the other guy listening to Air America have the same SEIU stain on his lip that you do from drinking the cool-aid?

    1. This is only 2% of the problem.
    2. No job is going to pay you more if it can help it. Killing your benefits will not drive up your salary. This was a pre-tax benefit and if the company you work for pays you more, then they have to match more taxes. Even if you got paid more, you will be forced to use that money to buy your own insurance or pay a fine. Your math is fuzzy.
    3. If you go to the emergency room, take an ambulance. It is an expensive ride, but you go right to the front of the line. If your injuries warrant the ride, chances are the costs will be covered anyway. If you don't need an ambulance, you might be part of the problem.
    4. How do you figure this one. Small businesses will not have to provide insurance because employees will be forced to purchase it on their own.
    5. This might be the biggest lie ever told. The proof will be in the pudding if we are still around to eat it.

    You said that 46 million are uninsured. This plan keeps saying it is going to insure 33 million uninsured Americans. Does that mean that this plan will still not cover everyone? Will there still be the same people abusing the emergency room?

    Insurance companies are in the business of legalized gambling. You have the right to put your money up and bet that you will, at some point, get sick. The IC says we'll take that bet, but you have to be honest with us and let us know if you are already sick. This is call a pre-existing condition. It's called honesty. If a person has no obligation to disclose sickness then it is not gambling and therefor it is not insurance.

    Health care is not a right. It is something that you have to pay for, like gas or food. It is necessary to living and it will be impossible for this country to maintain the level of care that is available if this law is not repealed. We have done the same thing with education. We have made it so everyone can have a HS diploma or a college degree. If Suzy can't cut the mustard, well then by God no-one else will have to either. If Johny can't afford a by-pass then we just won't let anyone have a by-pass.

    This is socialism and I am not surprised given the likes with which Barry hangs out.

    Wake up!

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