Religion and Self-Defense - Page 4
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Thread: Religion and Self-Defense

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by weekendskp View Post
    Not trying to hijack this wonderfully enlightening thread, but would someone answer a question? Why do most States CCW laws restrict carrying in churches? It's a valid question. Does being in church provide some safe haven from a criminal trying to rob the collection plate at gun point?
    IMHO, writing into law that you cannot carry in a church is a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state. The state should not be telling me what I should wear to church, or how much I should put in the collection plate, or whether or not I should look at that female member of the congregation who is showing a lot of cleavage. These matters, along with whether or not I carry a gun in church are matters for the church and I to settle between ourselves without the government interfering.

    HK4U says half of his church choir carries on a regular basis. Good for them, that's their right if they choose to do so. If you want to carry in a Galco or wear a Speedo under your robe, that's fine with me.

  2.   
  3. Quote Originally Posted by G50AE View Post
    IMHO, writing into law that you cannot carry in a church is a violation of the constitutional separation of church and state. The state should not be telling me what I should wear to church, or how much I should put in the collection plate, or whether or not I should look at that female member of the congregation who is showing a lot of cleavage. These matters, along with whether or not I carry a gun in church are matters for the church and I to settle between ourselves without the government interfering.

    HK4U says half of his church choir carries on a regular basis. Good for them, that's their right if they choose to do so. If you want to carry in a Galco or wear a Speedo under your robe, that's fine with me.
    There is no constitutional separation of church and state. That phrase was taken, out of context, from a letter from Thomas Jefferson to the Danbury Baptist association in response to questions concerning the formation of a NATIONAL religion. Most states, when the constitution was ratified, had some form of state (sponsored or recognized) religion. The concern was the federal government mandating a national religion similar to the Church of England. This is forbidden by the first amendment, of course. What is also forbidden is the making of a law RESTRICTING religion in any form, including a state religion. The current use stems from SC Justice Hugo Black and has been taken as gospel (and wrongly considered to be constitutional law) since 1947. If it were truly so the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormons) would not have had a state sponsored (Illinois) extermination order issued, or been officially disbanded by the US government in 1890 for their beliefs. Please study some history and the constitution before claiming these things.

  4. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by ldsgeek View Post
    Please study some history and the constitution before claiming these things.
    Oh c'mon now! That's half the fun of these Internet forums: coming on sites like this and stating opinions or misinformation as fact.

  5. #34
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    Being told you can't do something or being told you have to do something against your will, is a violation of God Given Rights. Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness... Our founding fathers recognized that and wrote it down so it was that clear and simple...

    My happiness is different from yours and I'll be the first one to recognize it when I find find it. I'll not need the assistance of any other to identify it and enjoy it...

    Anyone here on this earth telling me God didn't give me that right or God would not want me to do it, is second hand information and interpretation. Not even hearsay... When God and I meet we'll discuss it at length and I'll be the wiser for it, first hand...

    I carry mine to church and so far it's been uneventful. Thank the Lord...
    You can give peace a chance alright..

    I'll seek cover in case it goes badly..

  6. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ldsgeek View Post
    Most states, when the constitution was ratified, had some form of state (sponsored or recognized) religion.
    That's irrelivant, as the fourteenth amendment had not been passed yet. Without the fourteenth amendment, the bill of rights only applys to the federal government

    Quote Originally Posted by ldsgeek View Post
    The concern was the federal government mandating a national religion similar to the Church of England. This is forbidden by the first amendment, of course. What is also forbidden is the making of a law RESTRICTING religion in any form, including a state religion.
    That's exactly what separation of church and state IS. And you cannot have true freedom of religion without that wall of separation.

  7. My state allows carry in churches, & I can't imagine why others do not. I don't feel a church building should be labeled as "a place of nuisance!"

    There seem to be many twists on how "separation of church & state" came about, and what it means. I certainly have an opinion. But .... .

    For those of us who ascribe to the bible, there is surely one politician who was looked forward to, wanted, and fussed over more than all others. Jesus was predicted, desired, cried for, etc., but refused any such office. He condoned the submission to government (a barbaric one at that!), but refused to have any part of it. He did not give his followers any specific instruction regarding their use of government to further the word, or to control other's morality. He did not make any promise whatsoever about the political comfort of his people here, quite to the contrary! He was king alright, of another place, as we are citizens of another place. He was surely one of the most sought after politicians the world has known, but refused.

    Jesus was the King of the Jews, but in a deeper & larger sense. The Jewish people were a theocracy, a "completely" unique situation, of which there is on comparison. Jesus "is" King of us all, and for those who follow, we must do things in the manner that He did, or by definition we are "not" following.

    I congratulate anyone, especially christians, who wish to enter the world of politics to do good. But it is my firm position that christians have no right to "impose" their views, only suggest, as I've done here. As Jefferson did. As Jesus did. Please think hard about this before so firmly deciding that we have no separation between church and state, for I believe that whether we have it or not in our current state, that such a separation is certainly in our best interests simply because that is the condition God's bible suggests.

  8. #37
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    Two things God gave us...

    Free will and 10 simple laws... The rest is up to us...

    Death is the constant. How, when, and where are the variables. Judgment day will come...
    You can give peace a chance alright..

    I'll seek cover in case it goes badly..

  9. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by charliej47 View Post
    As I have read the newspapers, magazines and the Net, listened to the TV and radio and it seems that today's judeo-christian beliefs are more passive than anything else.

    I have had discussions with religious leaders and almost everyone of them state that having a weapon and defending yourself is wrong if you use deadly force.

    When I grew up the church I went to expressly stated that defending yourself and your family was demanded in the bible. They often quoted chapters and verses to back up their statements.

    After I got out of the Army and got married, I started attending a local church and almost all of the local churches no longer advocate this belief.
    With all due respect, you're attending the wrong churches.

    My pastor is a CCW instructor. He obtained his CCW and then his instructor's credentials the first summer that CCW was possible in our state (Missouri.) Then, since CCW in church here is prohibited without permission from the church minister or governing body, he announced that not only was anyone with a legal CCW permitted to carry in his church, they were INVITED to carry in his church. I know at least four other CCW instructors who attend that church; one of them has taught the county SERT team for more than two decades. The church has a discreetly armed (concealed carry) picked security team who have all trained under that SERT instructor. There's no way to be certain but I'd guesstimate that on any give Sunday somewhere in the neighborhood of 20% of the congregation is armed.

  10. #39
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    I am really surprised there is even a dedicated section like this......seems much of this could be covered elsewhere already? Political views and religious beliefs just don't seem to be a good topic of discussion on any forum, just my simple observation though.

    This will be my 1 and only post in here by the way, which has nothing to do with my political views or religious beliefs.

  11. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pokey View Post
    I am really surprised there is even a dedicated section like this......seems much of this could be covered elsewhere already? Political views and religious beliefs just don't seem to be a good topic of discussion on any forum, just my simple observation though.
    And right you are, Pokey. But you see the problem comes in when the religious whackos wear their beliefs on their sleeve, trying to inject it into every conversation, regardless of the topic. (see 6shooter, above)

    This lead to such angst in this particular forum space awhile back, Luke tried to appease them by providing an aside area where the activity would hopefully proceed with minimal disruption elsewhere. At one point the true believers supposedly conducted a mass defection to another site where their bigoted and hateful discussions would be more generally accepted.

    Unfortunately it seems a few of them stuck around. Oh well.

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