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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Waco the rules of Engagement is a good video if you want to see and understand all the lies the feds told. Many women and children were murdered. IMHO.
    I don't think there's any argument here that the feds messed up big time. Innocent people were killed and injured. It was a tragedy of epic proportions that could have been prevented with better planning and leadership. However, Koresh and his top leaders of the Branch Davidians were not innocent by any means. He was a twisted individual that twisted an off shoot religion even farther. Here's some reading:

    Branch Davidian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    BRANCH DAVIDIANS (STUDENTS OF THE SEVEN SEALS)

  2.   
  3. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by OUTTAHERE View Post
    People need to learn the difference between the Muslim religion and the concept of Islam, which is complete set of laws
    and political beliefs which happen to encompass the Muslim religion. If you care to take 5 minutes to educate yourself about
    Islam, take a look at this:
    YouTube - Three Things About Islam

    Americans are naturally predisposed to be very tolerant of any religion, but we had better be aware of what all we are up
    against and in this case it's not just religion. Europe is falling prey to Sharia Law, even letting it usurp their own laws of the land, no matter if it's England, France, Spain --- take your pick. No country can survive trying to work under two sets of
    laws; multiple religions yes, but not two sets of laws.
    Nice clip. Thank you. I'm here to learn, though I'm surprised this thread has not been locked yet. Sharia Law looks to be the opposite of the constitution (Congress shall make no law...). Even Calvinism, as it was implemented in places like Geneva, Switzerland, made distinctions between the role of the church and the role of the state.

    Still, those who don't know all the facts seem to be the context-killers.

    It's just very peculiar how people throw out undefinable terms like "Moderate Muslim," like this is some utopian ideal.

  4. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Waco the rules of Engagement is a good video if you want to see and understand all the lies the feds told. Many women and children were murdered. IMHO.
    +1

    Here's the first three to get everybody started down the road to the truth about WACO, end of the videos will give you the links to the rest ...

    This controversial documentary about the stand-off between an unorthodox Christian group - the Branch Davidians, under the leadership of the young, charismatic David Koresh - and the FBI and ATF in Waco, Texas, from February to April 1993 presents a different spin on the events from that of the United States government, which held that the Branch Davidians set the fire that destroyed their compound, and killed the vast majority of them, on April 19, 1993. Using footage from the 51 day siege, from the congressional hearings afterwords, from people involved in all aspects of the siege, and from experts technical, psychological, and religious, the movie suggests that the Branch Davidians were not a cult, but a valid religious group practicing under First Amendment freedoms who fell victim to first the ineptitude of an ATF raid designed to garner the agency positive attention and later the cruel, methodical work of the FBI, who over-saw the murder of the Davidians and then quickly covered it up...

    YouTube - Waco:Rules of Engagement Part 1

    YouTube - Waco:Rules of Engagement Part 2

    YouTube - Waco:Rules of Engagement Part 3

    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

  5. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    I don't think there's any argument here that the feds messed up big time. Innocent people were killed and injured. It was a tragedy of epic proportions that could have been prevented with better planning and leadership. However, Koresh and his top leaders of the Branch Davidians were not innocent by any means. He was a twisted individual that twisted an off shoot religion even farther. Here's some reading:

    Branch Davidian - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    BRANCH DAVIDIANS (STUDENTS OF THE SEVEN SEALS)
    Koresh was way out of line but from the beginning the feds lied. He did not have an ileagle guns, they lied about him not leaving the compound (that was the reason they gave for attacking the compound rather than arresting him away from there.) The front door that would prove if the bullet holes wwere from inside or the fed shooting through it from outside disapeared. The waco fire dept that was on the seen during the whole thing just happened to be sent away the day of the final assult. These are but a few of the many problems with the governments version of what happened.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  6. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Koresh was way out of line but from the beginning the feds lied. He did not have an Illegal guns, they lied about him not leaving the compound (that was the reason they gave for attacking the compound rather than arresting him away from there.) The front door that would prove if the bullet holes where from inside or the fed shooting through it from outside disappeared. The Waco fire dept that was on the seen during the whole thing just happened to be sent away the day of the final assault. These are but a few of the many problems with the governments version of what happened.
    +1

    I encourage all to start watching the video documentary posted previously with an open mind for the quest for the truth about WACO ...

    Which can be summed up in one word... TYRANNY

    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

  7. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by theicemanmpls View Post
    THIS CAME FROM THE SAME SOURCE
    Cruelty and Violence in the Old Testament
    If a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.--Lev.20:15

    There is no text more barbaric than the Old Testament of the Bible--books like Deuteronomy and Leviticus and Exodus. The Quran pales in comparison. -- Sam Harris, Beliefnet inverview

    THERE ARE 907 VERSES OF CRUELTY AND VIOLENCE IN THE OLD TESTAMENT

    Cruelty in the New Testament

    THERE ARE 144 VERSES OF CRUELTY AND VIOLENCE
    Thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.--Rev.16:6

    One of the things that is overlooked by many Christians is that there is a wrathful Jesus in the New Testament. Jesus comes out and condemns whole towns to fates worse than Sodom and Gomorrah for not liking his preaching. You can find Jesus in some very foul moods. -- Sam Harris, Beliefnet inverview

    Matthew


    Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

    Jesus strongly approves of the law and the prophets. He hasn't the slightest objection to the cruelties of the Old Testament. 5:17

    Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

    Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

    Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

    "The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

    Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

    Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

    Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. It will be worse for them than for Sodom and Gomorrah. And you know what God supposedly did to those poor folks (see Gen.19:24). 10:14-15

    Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

    Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

    Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

    Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

    Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

    Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. He defends himself by attacking them for not killing disobedient children according to the commandment: "He that curseth father or mother, let him die the death." (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) So, does Jesus think that children who curse their parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

    Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

    In the parable of the unforgiving servant, the king threatens to enslave a man and his entire family to pay for a debt. This practice, which was common at the time, seems not to have bothered Jesus very much. The parable ends with this: "So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you." If you are cruel to others, God will be cruel to you. 18:23-35

    "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

    In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13

    Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

    God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

    The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

    Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

    Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46
    Mark


    Jesus explains why he speaks in parables: to confuse people so they will go to hell. 4:11-12

    Jesus sends devils into 2000 pigs, causing them to jump off a cliff and be drowned in the sea. When the people hear about it, they beg Jesus to leave. 5:12-13

    Any city that doesn't "receive" the followers of Jesus will be destroyed in a manner even more savage than that of Sodom and Gomorrah. 6:11

    Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children as required by Old Testament law. (See Ex.21:15, Lev.20:9, Dt.21:18-21) 7:9-10

    If you're ashamed of Jesus, he'll be ashamed of you. (And you'll go straight to hell.) 8:38

    Jesus tells us to cut off our hands and feet, and pluck out our eyes to avoid going to hell. 9:43-49

    Jesus says that those that believe and are baptized will be saved, while those who don't will be damned. 16:16
    Luke


    God strikes Zacharias dumb for doubting the angel Gabriel's words. 1:20

    Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 3:9

    John the Baptist says that Christ will burn the damned "with fire unquenchable." 3:17

    Jesus heals a naked man who was possessed by many devils by sending the devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the sea. This messy, cruel, and expensive (for the owners of the pigs) treatment did not favorably impress the local residents, and Jesus was asked to leave. 8:27-37

    Jesus says that entire cities will be violently destroyed and the inhabitants "thrust down to hell" for not "receiving" his disciples. 10:10-15

    Jesus says that we should fear God since he has the power to kill us and then torture us forever in hell. 12:5

    Jesus says that God is like a slave-owner who beats his slaves "with many stripes." 12:46-47

    "Except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish." 13:3, 5

    According to Jesus, only a few will be saved; the vast majority will suffer eternally in hell where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 13:23-30

    In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, the rich man goes to hell, because as Abraham explains, he had a good life on earth and so now he will be tormented. Whereas Lazarus, who was miserable on earth, is now in heaven. This seems fair to Jesus. 16:19-31

    Jesus believed the story of Noah's ark. He thought it really happened and had no problem with the idea of God drowning everything and everybody. 17:26-27

    Jesus also believes the story about Sodom's destruction. He says, "even thus shall it be in the day the son of man is revealed ... Remember Lot's wife." This tells us about Jesus' knowledge of science and history, and his sense of justice. 17:29-32

    In the parable of the talents, Jesus says that God takes what is not rightly his, and reaps what he didn't sow. The parable ends with the words: "bring them [those who preferred not to be ruled by him] hither, and slay them before me." 19:22-27
    John


    Jesus believed the stupid and vicious story from Numbers 21. (God sent snakes to bite the people for complaining about the lack of foood and water, and then God told Moses to make a brass snake to cure them from the bites.) 3:14

    As an example to parents everywhere and to save the world (from himself), God had his own son tortured and killed. 3:16

    People are damned or saved depending only on what they believe. 3:18, 36

    The "wrath of God" is on all unbelievers. 3:36

    Jesus believes people are crippled by God as a punishment for sin. He tells a crippled man, after healing him, to "sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." 5:14

    Those who do not believe in Jesus will be cast into a fire to be burned. 15:6

    Jesus says we must eat his flesh and drink his blood if we want to have eternal life. This idea was just too gross for "many of his disciples" and "walked no more with him." 6:53-66
    Acts


    Peter claims that Deuteronomy 18:18-19 refers to Jesus, saying that those who refuse to follow him (all non-Christians) must be killed. 3:23

    Peter and God scare Ananias and his wife to death for not forking over all of the money that they made when selling their land. 5:1-10

    Peter has a dream in which God show him "wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls." The voice (God's?) says, "Rise, Peter: kill and eat." 10:10-13

    Peter describes the vision that he had in the last chapter (10:10-13). All kinds of beasts, creeping things, and fowls drop down from the sky in a big sheet, and a voice (God's, Satan's?) tells him to "Arise, Peter; slay and eat." 11:5-6

    The "angel of the Lord" killed Herod by having him "eaten of worms" because "he gave not God the glory." 12:23

    David was "a man after [God's] own heart." 13:22

    The author of Acts talks about the "sure mercies of David." But David was anything but merciful. For an example of his behavior see 2 Sam.12:31 and 1 Chr.20:3, where he saws, hacks, and burns to death the inhabitants of several cities. 13:34

    Paul and the Holy Ghost conspire together to make Elymas (the sorcerer) blind. 13:8-11
    Romans


    Homosexuals (those "without natural affection") and their supporters (those "that have pleasure in them") are "worthy of death." 1:31-32

    The guilty are "justified" and "saved from wrath" by the blood of an innocent victim. 5:9

    God punishes everyone for someone else's sin; then he saves them by killing an innocent victim. 5:12
    1 Corinthians


    If you defile the temple of God, God will destroy you. 3:17

    Paul claims that God killed 23,000 in a plague for "committing whoredom with the daughters of Moab 10:8

    If you tempt Christ (How could you tempt Christ?), you'll will die from snake bites. 10:9

    If you murmur, you'll be destroyed by the destroyer (God). 10:10
    2 Corinthians

    The terror of the Lord 5:11
    Galatians (None)

    Ephesians


    We are predestined by God to go to either heaven or hell. None of our thoughts, words, or actions can affect the final outcome. 1:4-5, 11

    God had his son murdered to keep himself from hurting others for things they didn't do. 1:7

    The bloody death of Jesus smelled good to God. 5:2

    Those who refuse to obey will face the wrath of God. 5:6
    Philippians (None)

    Colossians


    God bought us with someone else's blood. 1:14

    God makes peace through blood. 1:19-20
    1 Thessalonians


    God is planning a messy, mass murder in "the wrath to come" and only Jesus can save you from it. 1:10

    Christians shouldn't mourn the death of their fellow believers. They'll be OK and you'll see them later in heaven. The people you should mourn are dead nonbelievers. They have no hope (becasue they're going to hell). 4:13
    2 Thessalonians


    Jesus will take "vengeance on them that know not God" by burning them forever "in flaming fire." 1:7-9

    Jesus will "consume" the wicked "with the spirit of his mouth." 2:8

    God will cause us to believe lies so that he can damn our souls to hell. 2:11-12
    1 Timothy (None)

    2 Timothy (None)

    Titus (None)

    Philemon (None)

    Hebrews


    God will not forgive us unless we shed the blood of some innocent creature. 9:13-14, 22

    Those who disobeyed the Old Testament law were killed without mercy. It will be much worse for those who displease Jesus. 10:28-29

    The Israelites kept the passover and sprinkled blood on doorposts so that God wouldn't kill their firstborn children (like he did the Egyptians in Exodus 12:29). 11:28

    God ordered animals to be "stoned, or thrust through with a dart" if they "so much as ... touch the mountain." 12:20
    James


    If you are merciless to others, God will be merciless to you. (Two wrongs make a right.) 2:13

    James says Abraham was justified by works (for being willing to kill his son for God); Paul (Rom.4:2-3) says he was justified by faith (for believing that God would order him to do such an evil act). 2:21
    1 Peter


    We are all, according to Peter, predestined to be saved or damned. We have no say in the matter. It was all determined by "the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ."1:2

    "The precious blood of Christ ... was foreordained before the foundation of the world."
    God planned to kill Jesus from the get-go. 1:19-20

    God drowned drowned everyone on earth except for Noah and his family. 3:20
    2 Peter


    God drowned everyone else on earth except for Noah and his family. 2:5, 3:6

    "Turning the cities of Sodom and Gomorrha into ashes" 2:6

    God will set the entire earth on fire so that he can burn non-believers to death. 3:7

    When Jesus returns, he'll burn up the whole earth and everything on it. 3:10
    1 John


    Jesus' blood washes away human sin. 1:7
    2 John (None)

    3 John (None)

    Jude


    "The Lord destroyed them that believed not." 5
    Revelation


    Jesus "washed us ... with his own blood." 1:5

    Everyone on earth will wail because of Jesus. 1:7

    Jesus has "the keys of hell and death." 1:18

    Repent -- or else Jesus will fight you with the sword that sticks out of his mouth. (Like the limbless knight in Monty Python's "Holy Grail.") 2:16

    "I [Jesus] will kill her children with death." 2:23

    "Thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created." God created predators, pathogens, and predators for his very own pleasure. One of his favorite species is guinea worms. 4:11

    "Thou art worthy ... for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood." 5:9

    God gives someone on a white horse a bow and sends him out to conquer people. 6:2

    God gave power to someone on a red horse "to take from the earth ... that they should kill one another." 6:4

    God tells Death and Hell to kill one quarter of the earth's population with the sword, starvation, and "with the beasts of the earth." 6:8

    The martyrs just can't wait until everyone else is slaughtered. God gives them a white robe and tells them to wait until he's done with his killing spree. 6:10-11

    God tells his murderous angels to "hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of your God on their foreheads." This verse is one that Christians like to use to show God's loving concern for the environment. But the previous verse (7:2) makes it clear that it was their God-given job to "hurt the earth and the sea" just as soon as they finished their forehead marking job. 7:3

    144,000 Jews will be going to heaven; everyone else is going to hell. 7:4

    Those that survive the great tribulation will get to wash their clothes in the blood of the lamb. 7:14

    God sends his angels to destroy a third part of all the trees, grass, sea creature, mountains, sun, moon, starts, and water. 8:7-13

    "Many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter." 8:11

    The angels are instructed not to "hurt the grass [how could they? He already had all the grass killed in 8:7] ... but only those men which have not the seal of God on their foreheads." God tells his angels not to kill them, but rather torment them with scorpions for five months. Those tormented will want to die, but God won't let them. 9:4-6

    God makes some horse-like locusts with human heads, women's hair, lion's teeth, and scorpion's tails. They sting people and hurt them for five months. 9:7-10

    Four angels, with an army of 200 million, killed a third of the earth's population. 9:15-19

    Anyone that messes with God's two olive trees and two candlesticks (God's witnesses) will be burned to death by fire that comes out of their mouths. 11:3-5

    God's witnesses have special powers. They can shut up heaven so that it cannot rain, turn rivers into blood, and smite the earth with plagues "as often as they will." 11:6

    After God's witnesses "have finished their testimony," they are killed in a war with a beast from a bottomless pit. 11:7

    Their dead bodies lie unburied for three and a half days. People will "rejoice over them and make merry, and shall send gifts to one another." After another three and half days God brings his witnesses back to life and they ascend into heaven. 11:8-12

    When the witnesses ascend into heaven, an earthquake kills 7000 men. This was the second woe. "The third woe cometh quickly." 11:13-14

    "The Lamb slain from the foundation of the world"
    God planned to kill Jesus before he created the world. 13:8

    Those who receive the mark of the beast will "drink of the wine of the wrath of God ... and shall be tormented with fire and brimstone ... and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever." 14:10-11

    Jesus sits on a white cloud with a sharp sickle in his hand. When the angel tells him to reap, he kills all the people with his sickle. 14:14-18

    "The great winepress of the wrath of God ... was trodden ... and the blood cam out of the winepress, even unto the horses bridles." 14:19-20

    Seven angels with seven plagues are filled with the wrath of God. 15:1, 15:7

    The seven vials of wrath: 1) sores, 2) sea turned to blood, 3) rivers turned to blood, 4) people scorched with fire, 5) people gnaw their tongues in pain, 6) Euphrates dries up, 7) thunder, lightning, earthquake, and hail. 16:1

    "There fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast." 16:2

    "The second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea." 16:3

    "The third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood." 16:4

    God gave the saints and prophets blood to drink. 16:6

    An angel tells God how righteous he is because he gives saints blood to drink. 16:7

    "Power was given unto him [the fourth angel] to scorch men with fire." 16:8

    Those who were being burned to death by God didn't repent "to give him glory." 16:9

    "The fifth angel poured out his vial ... and they gnawed their tongues for pain." 16:10

    Even after being burned alive, those nasty people wouldn't repent! 16:11

    Christians will fight in the war between Jesus and those allied with the beast. 17:14

    "They shall eat her flesh and burn her with fire." (Are they going to eat her first and then burn her?) 17:16-17

    To punish her God will send plagues and famine, and "she will be utterly burned with fire." 18:8

    God will send plagues, death, and famine on Babylon, and the kings "who have committed fornication with her" will be sad to see her burn. 18:8-9

    Jesus makes war. 19:11

    Jesus's clothes are dipped in blood and his secret name ("that no man knew") is "The Word of God". (I bet you thought it was Jesus!) 19:13

    With eyes aflame, many crowns on his head, clothes dripping with blood, a sword sticking out of his mouth, and a secret name, Jesus leads the faithful in heaven into holy war on earth. 19:14-15

    "Come ... unto the supper of the great God." An angel calls all the fowls to feast upon the flesh of dead horses and human bodies, "both free and bond, both small and great." 19:17-18

    The beast and the false prophet are cast alive into a lake of fire. The rest were killed with the sword of Jesus. "And all the fowls were filled with their flesh." 19:20-21

    God will send fire from heaven to devour people. And the devil will be tormented "day and night for ever and ever." 20:9-10

    Whoever isn't found listed in the book of life will be cast into the lake of fire. 20:15

    All liars, as well as those who are fearful or unbelieving, will be cast into "the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone." 21:8

    New Testament Cruelty
    Is this what you believe? Why?

  8. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Koresh was way out of line but from the beginning the feds lied. He did not have an ileagle guns, they lied about him not leaving the compound (that was the reason they gave for attacking the compound rather than arresting him away from there.) The front door that would prove if the bullet holes wwere from inside or the fed shooting through it from outside disapeared. The waco fire dept that was on the seen during the whole thing just happened to be sent away the day of the final assult. These are but a few of the many problems with the governments version of what happened.
    HK, again I'll say there's no argument about the feds ineptitude and cover-up on this. All I was trying to point out here is the fanatic that Koresh was and the fact that he used his version of Christianity for his purpose. He was a twisted individual and because of the feds foul up many people don't see that. All they remember is the massacre, not the fact that not everyone at the compound was an innocent.

  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    HK, again I'll say there's no argument about the feds ineptitude and cover-up on this. All I was trying to point out here is the fanatic that Koresh was and the fact that he used his version of Christianity for his purpose. He was a twisted individual and because of the feds foul up many people don't see that. All they remember is the massacre, not the fact that not everyone at the compound was an innocent.
    I think the Jury is still out on Koresh and the Davidians as well...

    Even the few non-biased subject matter experts say that the Koresh and the Davidians were cloaked in such secrecy that they only know what they have found out since the Waco raid(s)...

    Which is obviously far from conclusive for anybody to pass judgment on Koresh and the Davidians...

    "Waco the rules of Engagement" is the most credible and enlightening source of information we have to-date short of the clear federal governments infringement of Koresh and the Davidians 1st, 2nd, and 5th amendment rights at minimum...

    "The people never give up their liberties, but under some delusion." - Edmund Burke

  10. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    HK, again I'll say there's no argument about the feds ineptitude and cover-up on this. All I was trying to point out here is the fanatic that Koresh was and the fact that he used his version of Christianity for his purpose. He was a twisted individual and because of the feds foul up many people don't see that. All they remember is the massacre, not the fact that not everyone at the compound was an innocent.
    I understand ronwill and I agree that probably Koresh was a false prophet and a cult leader. Where I am coming from is that with all that may have been wrong with him I do not think the real reason the BATF went after him was in anyway to protect the kids. In fact BATF had no jurisdiction in that area and that is why they had to come up with trumped up charges of weapons violations. They had an agenda and it had noting to do with the children.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  11. #30
    Here is one more thing to think about. You remember the initial shoot out that started the whole thing. If all of the Dividians were as evil as they were made out to be why did they hold their fire and let the BATF come up and get their wounded?
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

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