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Thread: New School Prayor

  1. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    I believe you're referencing the Treaty Of Tripoli here and, again, this meant that the U.S. had no state religion and held that there would be no action against their religion. As for prayer in school, the founding fathers didn't want a state religion but they didn't want Christianity wiped from every nook and cranny either. If this was the case why would they sanction a day of prayer and rest from work? Many things are being done today in the name of "separation of Church and state" when this is nowhere in the Constitution. Yes there was some reference to it by the founding fathers and again this was meaning a separation from the church controlling government, not that any reference to religion was to be wiped from schools, courthouses, government owned buildings, etc.
    I'll disagree with your "interpretation" of the Treaty of Tripoli. The writings of the time were very carefully worded and if they meant "the U.S. had no state religion" I think they would have said that instead of directly stating that we were not "founded on Christianity" as they did state.

    I will agree that the "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution and the intention of the 1st Amendment has been lost in recent history. The founders clearly had no issue with religion being practiced on government property (they held services in the Capital building after all). That said, mandated religious practices were not conducted (from anything I've read) and the only prohibition on "prayer in school" that I'm aware of is in regard to "mandated prayer or mandated presence during prayer." In Vitale the SCOTUS ruled that a "state authored" prayer could not be mandated (clearly state sponsored/supported religion) and in Schempp they ruled that the school could not mandate reading or prayers from the Bible but the ruling specifically stated that private prayers, prayer groups, discussions among students or even the study of religion was not prohibited.

    Prayers are fine, forced subjection to prayers or state authored prayers are prohibited. That seems in line with the voluntary religious services the founders and the 1st Amendment. I think if a Muslim principle was reading from the Quran every morning in public school then more people would understand the distinction between mandated prayer or subjection to it rather than prohibition of prayer. Just my interpretation. Others may vary but I side with the SCOTUS on this issue.

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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jlcnuke View Post
    I'll disagree with your "interpretation" of the Treaty of Tripoli. The writings of the time were very carefully worded and if they meant "the U.S. had no state religion" I think they would have said that instead of directly stating that we were not "founded on Christianity" as they did state.

    I will agree that the "separation of church and state" is not in the Constitution and the intention of the 1st Amendment has been lost in recent history. The founders clearly had no issue with religion being practiced on government property (they held services in the Capital building after all). That said, mandated religious practices were not conducted (from anything I've read) and the only prohibition on "prayer in school" that I'm aware of is in regard to "mandated prayer or mandated presence during prayer." In Vitale the SCOTUS ruled that a "state authored" prayer could not be mandated (clearly state sponsored/supported religion) and in Schempp they ruled that the school could not mandate reading or prayers from the Bible but the ruling specifically stated that private prayers, prayer groups, discussions among students or even the study of religion was not prohibited.

    Prayers are fine, forced subjection to prayers or state authored prayers are prohibited. That seems in line with the voluntary religious services the founders and the 1st Amendment. I think if a Muslim principle was reading from the Quran every morning in public school then more people would understand the distinction between mandated prayer or subjection to it rather than prohibition of prayer. Just my interpretation. Others may vary but I side with the SCOTUS on this issue.
    I don't know how old you are but if you have school age kids, especially middle school or high school, tell them to kneel down in the hallway and pray for a couple of minutes. Have them report back on what happens. If nothing happens I congratulate you for having a school still has principles. I think you would find though that they would be stopped and told that it is "inappropriate" behavior and not allowed in public schools. This nation has strayed far from the principles it was founded on and this is true of more than just prayer in schools. It's been happening for many years and not just under the current administration. It's alright to desecrate the flag, to claim to be awarded the Medal of Honor, lie about military service, have illegal immigrants demand the same rights as legal immigrants and citizens but oh no there can't be prayer in schools or the Ten Commandments in courts, etc. We simply need to get back to what this country once was and the only way to do that is return to those principles the founding fathers started with.

  4. #33
    I raised four kids - all went to public schools from k through 12. There was no time when they had an opportunity to "kneel in prayer in the hallway" - not because the schools were anti-praying, but because they schools were focused on education, and the hallways were for moving children from one place to another rather than for public exhibitions.

    Some who stopped and started break dancing would be treated the same as someone who stopped and knelt to pray - they be told to move on - the hallway was no place for such activites.

    The biggest problem I have with those who complain about not being able to pray in the schools is that they don't want to pray - they want to proselytize. They want to demonstrate their religious practices to a captive audience. They are dishonest in their intentions. And i believe that they are insecure in their beliefs because they aren't comfortable praying to their god but rather they need others to participate to give their beliefs credence.

  5. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by jlcnuke View Post
    Ah, the "low post count must be a troll" standard forum opinion. Sorry that isn't me. I joined the forum to be able to post in the Georgia section regarding this site's information on Georgia laws being outdated and no longer correct (if you don't believe me you can check my history, linking to a summary of the updated laws was my first post). Not sure where "over there" is or how it is relevant to this discussion (or the sidetrack this thread has gone on so far).
    If you read my comment, you will see that I was not referring to you at all. Please check the comment that I quoted.
    "The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government." Thomas Jefferson

  6. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    I raised four kids - all went to public schools from k through 12. There was no time when they had an opportunity to "kneel in prayer in the hallway" - not because the schools were anti-praying, but because they schools were focused on education, and the hallways were for moving children from one place to another rather than for public exhibitions.

    Some who stopped and started break dancing would be treated the same as someone who stopped and knelt to pray - they be told to move on - the hallway was no place for such activites.

    The biggest problem I have with those who complain about not being able to pray in the schools is that they don't want to pray - they want to proselytize. They want to demonstrate their religious practices to a captive audience. They are dishonest in their intentions. And i believe that they are insecure in their beliefs because they aren't comfortable praying to their god but rather they need others to participate to give their beliefs credence.
    Let me say that I don't believe anyone should be forced to pray. A belief should not be forced on anyone and that goes for forcing the removal of a belief. I gave the hallway prayer as an example. My point is that if you are seen praying during school hours you will be talked to even if it's during lunch or a small recess. Preaching to, or "proselytizing" to, someone can be an attempt to force a belief on someone and I already said I'm against trying to force someone into a belief. If someone wants to take a moment in school to pray there should be no problem with that. This goes for anyone who doesn't believe in prayer, they should not be forced to do so. By removing that choice you are forcing a belief on me and that is what I'm saying the wrong is.

  7. #36
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    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    My point is that if you are seen praying during school hours you will be talked to even if it's during lunch or a small recess.
    Don't know what schools you are referencing, but I can tell you I see several teachers as well as students silently praying for blessings for their lunch. Includes the schools one of my daughters went to in Georgia (Lilburn, Lawerenceville, Snellville) as well as the schools in where we live now in SC.

  8. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by melloyello View Post
    Don't know what schools you are referencing, but I can tell you I see several teachers as well as students silently praying for blessings for their lunch. Includes the schools one of my daughters went to in Georgia (Lilburn, Lawerenceville, Snellville) as well as the schools in where we live now in SC.
    I know that there are still a few schools that haven't jumped on the band wagon yet. Most of them are in the south but even here and the "Bible Belt" there are schools that have stopped it because someone complained and the SCOTUS upheld the bans. The following will give a better understanding of banned prayer. Pay particular attention to the fact that SCOTUS even banned "voluntary" school prayer where anyone not wishing to participate could leave. They used the First Amendment in many of these cases. I ask how does allowing prayer, especially voluntary prayer, establish a religion?

    School Prayer/Pledge Of Allegiance: Encyclopedia of Everyday Law

  9. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by ronwill View Post
    I know that there are still a few schools that haven't jumped on the band wagon yet. Most of them are in the south but even here and the "Bible Belt" there are schools that have stopped it because someone complained and the SCOTUS upheld the bans. The following will give a better understanding of banned prayer. Pay particular attention to the fact that SCOTUS even banned "voluntary" school prayer where anyone not wishing to participate could leave. They used the First Amendment in many of these cases. I ask how does allowing prayer, especially voluntary prayer, establish a religion?

    School Prayer/Pledge Of Allegiance: Encyclopedia of Everyday Law
    Every child, teacher, and administrator in every school in the United States can pray whenever they feel like praying.

    Claiming otherwise is dishonest.

    What they can't do is force others to disrupt their educational experience because someone feels the need to exhibitionists their praying.

  10. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by nogods View Post
    Every child, teacher, and administrator in every school in the United States can pray whenever they feel like praying.

    Claiming otherwise is dishonest.

    What they can't do is force others to disrupt their educational experience because someone feels the need to exhibitionists their praying.
    All I can say to that is read the following:

    Student suspended for in-school prayer called "disruptive," protests follow | WHAS11 Louisville, Kentucky and Indiana News | Education News

    12 Students Suspended for Praying at School | Christianpost.com

    Expulsion threatened over prayer for sick teacher

    This is only a few examples and there are many more. Now what was that about dishonesty?

  11. #40
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    And they all did it in a matter to cause attention to themselves. If they weren't vocalizing their prayers no one would know the difference.
    For me, it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring. - Carl Sagan .When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours - Stephen Roberts

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