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Thread: America's Epitaph

  1. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by niceshootintex View Post
    Those aren't "reproductive decisions". Those are the ending of a life decisions. Let's call it what is.

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    Until a child is viable outside the womb whether at 20 weeks or 26 weeks, it is not an individual. If the Bible held unborn life as sacred as you claim it would not contain instructions for terminating a child. BTW the instructions hold the child guilty for the sins of the parent. Specific instructions for when an abortion was appropriate can be found in Numbers 5:11-31. So the moral objection isn't even intellectually consistent. Sorry....but pregnancy IS a personal health decision.

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  3. Quote Originally Posted by S&W29 View Post
    Until a child is viable outside the womb whether at 20 weeks or 26 weeks, it is not an individual. If the Bible held unborn life as sacred as you claim it would not contain instructions for terminating a child. BTW the instructions hold the child guilty for the sins of the parent. Specific instructions for when an abortion was appropriate can be found in Numbers 5:11-31. So the moral objection isn't even intellectually consistent. Sorry....but pregnancy IS a personal health decision.

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    Thanks for explaining that. I feel so much better now. I know what you said is wrong, you know it's wrong, and we as a country know it's wrong to terminate life. At some point it will become kids with birth defects, seniors, and whatever race or religion is unlucky enough to be out of favor with tptb. That'll be a lesson to us when it starts occurring. Oh yeah, it's already happened and is happening.

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  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by niceshootintex View Post
    Thanks for explaining that. I feel so much better now. I know what you said is wrong, you know it's wrong, and we as a country know it's wrong to terminate life. At some point it will become kids with birth defects, seniors, and whatever race or religion is unlucky enough to be out of favor with tptb. That'll be a lesson to us when it starts occurring. Oh yeah, it's already happened and is happening.

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    Actually the future is in eliminating birth defects before they ever enter the room. Gene therapy is the next step. As to unwanted pregnancies, well if the religious right wouldn't oppose proper sex education and birth control, the need for safe legal abortion would be greatly reduced. It is a fact that those 2 things alone are the greatest reducers of unwanted pregnancy and abortions. But the right also oppose those 2 simple measures because apparently every sperm is sacred.

    As to my assertion...go ahead read the passage where God's law demands his priest to kill an unrepentant adulterous mother's child. With a bitter water that one can reasonably assume was mixed with herbs that will induce a miscarriage. Much as some abortion pills do today.

    So no I am not wrong. I would much rather give a woman the choice to have a child or not than to FORCE her to bring it into a society constructed in such a way that she cannot support it and every pathway to success is cut off from her.
    It is simply false to say hard work will get you ahead in America today. If that were true, teachers in AZ, OK, WV, & KY with Masters Degrees would not have to work 2 & 3 jobs to make ends meet and STILL march for raises, a secure retirement, & adequate funding for public schools. The America you lived in is dead.

    So no, what I said is not wrong...it is a solution and the truth.

    BTW don't talk to me about adoption. If Christians who oppose abortion were so concerned, there wouldn't be a problem with foster homes or adoption.

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  5. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by S&W29 View Post
    Until a child is viable outside the womb whether at 20 weeks or 26 weeks, it is not an individual. If the Bible held unborn life as sacred as you claim it would not contain instructions for terminating a child. BTW the instructions hold the child guilty for the sins of the parent. Specific instructions for when an abortion was appropriate can be found in Numbers 5:11-31. So the moral objection isn't even intellectually consistent. Sorry....but pregnancy IS a personal health decision.

    Sent from my LG-H910 using USA Carry mobile app
    S&W: I don't know if you attended a seminary to obtain your religious thoughts but, if you did go, you must have skipped a few classes and missed out on a lot. You are professing YOUR beliefs and interpretation of the Scriptures. It is amazing how you "Millenial" people distort Biblical truths to conform to what you want them to mean, not what they really mean.

    "Is Numbers 5:11-31 referring to God causing an abortion? What was the jealousy offering?"

    Answer: Numbers 5:11-31, describes an unusual procedure, known as the jealousy offering, a husband could use to determine if his wife had been unfaithful to him. Essentially, the husband and wife would come to the priest, the priest would then create a concoction of unpleasant ingredients, and then the wife would have to drink the concoction. If the wife was guilty of adultery, she would get sick and her belly would swell. If the wife was innocent, God would protect her from the effects of the concoction. There was nothing magical about the concoction. It was entirely a matter of God using the result to demonstrate whether a woman was innocent or guilty. So, in summary, Numbers 5:11-31 affirms the truth of Numbers 32:23, "Be sure your sin will find you out."

    Some propose that Numbers 5:11-31 refers to God causing an abortion. The 2011 edition of the NIV mistakenly states that the drink will cause miscarriage in Numbers 5:21-22, 27. However, this is not what the passage is talking about. Pregnancy is nowhere mentioned, or even hinted at, in the text. The only thing that even sounds like pregnancy is the guilty wife’s stomach becoming bloated, but even in that instance, it has nothing to do with pregnancy. Further, the passage does not say that drinking the concoction would cause an abortion/miscarriage. While drinking a poisonous mixture of ingredients could very well cause a miscarriage, that is not what this text is speaking of.

    If a wife was found guilty, the punishment was death (Leviticus 20:10). If the wife was found innocent, she would be “cleared of guilt” and “able to have children” (Numbers 11:28). So, again, Numbers 5:11-31 does not refer to abortion in any sense. Rather, it is describing a method that God allowed to be used to determine if a wife had committed adultery against her husband.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/Numbers-abortion.html


    "Does the Bible teach that life begins at conception?"

    Answer: The Bible does teach that life begins at conception. Every culture's view of when human life begins changes as society's values, moral standards, and knowledge about the process of embryonic development change. Prior to the 1973 U.S. Supreme Court decision that allowed abortion on demand, developing embryos were considered unborn persons. Now, even a fetus that could survive on its own outside its mother's womb could be aborted, under certain medical circumstances. This demonstrates that we do not consider an unborn child to be a true human being.

    Science tells us that human life begins at the time of conception. From the moment fertilization takes place, the child's genetic makeup is already complete. Its gender has already been determined, along with its height and hair, eye and skin color. The only thing the embryo needs to become a fully-functioning being is the time to grow and develop.

    More importantly, God reveals to us in His Word that not only does life begin at conception, but He knows who we are even before then (Jeremiah 1:5). King David said this about God's role in our conception: "For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb . . . your eyes saw my unformed body. All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be" (Psalm 139:13, 16).

    Society continually seeks to devalue the lives of the unborn, creating its own definitions of humanity based on distorted views of morality. But the undeniable fact is that life begins at creation, and a human is created as soon as he or she is conceived. God is present at our creation; He is, in fact, our Creator. Our value as human beings created in His image is conceived even before we are.

    https://www.gotquestions.org/life-begin-conception.html

  6. Quote Originally Posted by S&W29 View Post
    Actually the future is in eliminating birth defects before they ever enter the room. Gene therapy is the next step. As to unwanted pregnancies, well if the religious right wouldn't oppose proper sex education and birth control, the need for safe legal abortion would be greatly reduced. It is a fact that those 2 things alone are the greatest reducers of unwanted pregnancy and abortions. But the right also oppose those 2 simple measures because apparently every sperm is sacred.

    As to my assertion...go ahead read the passage where God's law demands his priest to kill an unrepentant adulterous mother's child. With a bitter water that one can reasonably assume was mixed with herbs that will induce a miscarriage. Much as some abortion pills do today.

    So no I am not wrong. I would much rather give a woman the choice to have a child or not than to FORCE her to bring it into a society constructed in such a way that she cannot support it and every pathway to success is cut off from her.
    It is simply false to say hard work will get you ahead in America today. If that were true, teachers in AZ, OK, WV, & KY with Masters Degrees would not have to work 2 & 3 jobs to make ends meet and STILL march for raises, a secure retirement, & adequate funding for public schools. The America you lived in is dead.

    So no, what I said is not wrong...it is a solution and the truth.

    BTW don't talk to me about adoption. If Christians who oppose abortion were so concerned, there wouldn't be a problem with foster homes or adoption.

    Sent from my LG-H910 using USA Carry mobile app
    You go from my point on abortion to teachers salaries and adoption, neither of which I even referred to, and then use the term solution for abortion? You said "it is a solution and the truth". Unfortunate use of the word solution in this case.

    Killing the unborn is not a solution but the word solution has been used in the not too distant past to describe a heinous act of mass genocide so maybe it was a subconscious slip up on your part. It's a "solution" but it's definitely not God's will despite the nonsense about the passage you used.

    You don't have to remind a majority of people over the age of 40 that the America we lived in is dead. Painfully obvious that responsibility, accountability, honor, courage, commitment, and truth are all but gone. This version of America will reap what it is currently sowing. It doesn't bring me any joy that many who are an integral part of our cultural de-evolution will find their inglorious destinies in the results. God will definitely sort it out. So let it be written, so let it be done.

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  7. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by niceshootintex View Post
    You go from my point on abortion to teachers salaries and adoption, neither of which I even referred to, and then use the term solution for abortion? You said "it is a solution and the truth". Unfortunate use of the word solution in this case.

    Killing the unborn is not a solution but the word solution has been used in the not too distant past to describe a heinous act of mass genocide so maybe it was a subconscious slip up on your part. It's a "solution" but it's definitely not God's will despite the nonsense about the passage you used.

    You don't have to remind a majority of people over the age of 40 that the America we lived in is dead. Painfully obvious that responsibility, accountability, honor, courage, commitment, and truth are all but gone. This version of America will reap what it is currently sowing. It doesn't bring me any joy that many who are an integral part of our cultural de-evolution will find their inglorious destinies in the results. God will definitely sort it out. So let it be written, so let it be done.

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    Proof that effective sex ed. & available birth control reduce abortion rates. Mind you: even if you outlawed all abortion tomorrow it would not reduce the abortion rate to 0% it would simply move it underground.

    https://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/3...-low-cost-iud/

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  8. Quote Originally Posted by S&W29 View Post
    Proof that effective sex ed. & available birth control reduce abortion rates. Mind you: even if you outlawed all abortion tomorrow it would not reduce the abortion rate to 0% it would simply move it underground.

    https://www.denverpost.com/2017/11/3...-low-cost-iud/

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    That's an interesting article. Am too pragmatic to not look at a problem and try solving it with practical solutions. Is the AMA involved at all for outcomes nationally? It said Medicaid was in the mix after the grant expired so I'm assuming the HHS and FDA is at least aware. I know at least one group who would be unhappy but the current situation is obviously in need of remedies that don't involve ending viable lives. I also know that there is not a 0% solution to most problems in life.

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  9. #18
    Thank you for the acknowledgement. I only seek to inform in this case. I do not pretend we will agree. I do wish evangelicals would look at he data and make an informed and perhaps pragmatic decision. But that is probably asking too much after a certain point. As you agreed there is no 0% solution. So my question remains what is a reasonable outcome?

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  10. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by S&W29 View Post
    Thank you for the acknowledgement. I only seek to inform in this case. I do not pretend we will agree. I do wish evangelicals would look at he data and make an informed and perhaps pragmatic decision. But that is probably asking too much after a certain point. As you agreed there is no 0% solution. So my question remains what is a reasonable outcome?

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    S&W: The data you are suggesting evangelicals read is inconsistent with the teachings of the Bible. You are disregarding God's Word to be in with the Millenials of today who are rejecting the Bible. There is no practical approach for us other than the Bible. I once heard a little idiom that actually says it all for us, "God said it, I believe it, and that settles it." What God said is not open for debate and is not going to change because His rules are contrary to what those who do not know Him want to believe. He has given us free will to accept or reject Him. Obviously, those who choose to reject Him for New Age thinking will, in the end, discover the loss of their souls was not worth the lies being perpetrated.

    Question: "What is an Evangelical Christian?"

    To begin, let’s break down the two words. The term Christian essentially means "follower of Christ." Christian is the term given to followers of Jesus Christ in the first century A.D. (Acts 11:26). The term evangelical comes from the Greek word that means "good news." Evangelism is sharing the good news of the salvation that is available through Jesus Christ. An evangelical, then, is a person dedicated to promoting the good news about Jesus Christ. Combined, the description "evangelical Christian" is intended to indicate a believer in Jesus Christ who is faithful in sharing and promoting the good news.

    In Western culture today, there are many caricatures of evangelical Christians. For some, the term evangelical Christian is equivalent to “right-wing, fundamentalist Republican.” For others, "evangelical Christian" is a title used to differentiate an individual from a Catholic Christian or an Orthodox Christian. Others use the term to indicate adherence to the fundamental doctrines of Christianity. In this sense, an evangelical Christian is a believer who holds to the inspiration, inerrancy, and authority of Scripture, the Trinity, the deity of Christ, and salvation by grace through faith alone. However, none of these definitions are inherent in the description "evangelical Christian."

    In reality, all Christians should be evangelical Christians.
    The Bible is consistently instructing us to be witnesses of the good news (Matthew 28:18-20; Acts 1:8; 1 Corinthians 16:1-4; 1 Peter 3:15). There is no better news than Jesus! There is no higher calling than evangelist. There is no doubt that holding to the fundamentals of the Bible will result in a certain worldview and, yes, political belief. However, there is nothing about being an evangelical that demands a certain political party or affiliation. An evangelical Christian is called to share the good news, to preach God's Word, and to set an example of purity and integrity. If these callings require political action, so be it. At the same time, evangelical Christians should not be sidetracked into abandoning our highest calling—sharing the gospel of Jesus Christ.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by S&W29 View Post
    Thank you for the acknowledgement. I only seek to inform in this case. I do not pretend we will agree. I do wish evangelicals would look at he data and make an informed and perhaps pragmatic decision. But that is probably asking too much after a certain point. As you agreed there is no 0% solution. So my question remains what is a reasonable outcome?

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    Don't get it mixed up. I might be interested in the facts and outcomes as discussed in your link but it doesn't mean I'm compromising my position on murder. There is no reasonable outcome unless you are always OK with decisions made by 9 men and women who have already compromised the Constitution and the laws of God. Good article, deserves attention, but I'm not hoping for reasonable outcomes from those that weren't subjected to abortion themselves judging those lives that they decided can be legally ended before they were even allowed to be born. There's just an outcome.

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