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Thread: God, the Bible & Survivalism

  1. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Chapter 20 tells us when the resurrection happens. After Satan is bound. 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 tells us the we will not precede the resurrection of the dead but they will be raised first then we that remain will be caught up. As far as I am concerned there are plenty of other verses that indicate an after trib rapture but I usually do not argue with other Christians on the subject because it can be a continuous issue and I don't want to cause bad feelings with other believers.
    Thanks HK, I see wear your coming from. Hear is where I'm coming from. 1 Thessalonians tells us that those who died before us will rise first and we who are alive will be caught up together with them in the air, in the twinkling of an eye. This is the Rapture of the Church, not the first resurrection. The first resurrection is of those who were killed during the Tribulation because they refused the Mark of the Beast. These people will reign on earth for a thousand years with those who were Raptured. No argument HK, we just see it differently. Thanks again for sharing.
    The Most Important Thing That You Can Do In This Life, Is To Determine "WHERE" You Will "LIVE" In The Next Life.

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  3. #12
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    Lots of good posts on this one..thanks CWM for starting another thought provoking thread

    There are so many interpretations and theories out there, that it is hard to say what the correct one is. I am with CWM..be prudent, make preparations and follow the Lord, and He will handle the rest.

    One thing I fall back on when having discussions around this subject where there is no clear right and wrong is this:

    Matthew 24:36
    "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."

  4. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    Thanks HK, I see wear your coming from. Hear is where I'm coming from. 1 Thessalonians tells us that those who died before us will rise first and we who are alive will be caught up together with them in the air, in the twinkling of an eye. This is the Rapture of the Church, not the first resurrection. The first resurrection is of those who were killed during the Tribulation because they refused the Mark of the Beast. These people will reign on earth for a thousand years with those who were Raptured. No argument HK, we just see it differently. Thanks again for sharing.
    Thanks Ringo. I did not really figure most of us here would get up set if there were differing opinions but I have known those on both sides of the debate to get pretty heated up over the issue. One thing I absolutely do believe is that with all that is happening it seems that what ever the sequence of events we are rapidly approaching that day and no matter how long we have each day we are one day closer.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

  5. Quote Originally Posted by Ringo View Post
    Thanks HK, I see wear your coming from. Hear is where I'm coming from. 1 Thessalonians tells us that those who died before us will rise first and we who are alive will be caught up together with them in the air, in the twinkling of an eye. This is the Rapture of the Church, not the first resurrection. The first resurrection is of those who were killed during the Tribulation because they refused the Mark of the Beast. These people will reign on earth for a thousand years with those who were Raptured. No argument HK, we just see it differently. Thanks again for sharing.
    There are several views of the tribulation even some that deny the tribulation at all. Some assert that the book of Revelation was already fulfilled during the destruction of Jerusalem during the Roman conquest of 70 AD and most of those adherents are the preterists. There are the mid trib folks and the pre-wrath Rosenthal folks. At one point early in my Christian experience, I was an old earth creationist and a pre-wrath believer. I continued to ask questions to God as well as whoever would talk about the subject which was much easier in the early 90's than it is now. I searched the Scriptures with great interest especially in the area of Bible prophecy. I really have no doubts whatsoever on the pre-trib issue. Bible prophecy is my favorite topic of all.

    As far as the pre-trib issue, the basis for my belief in this and why I no longer believe in the pre-wrath rapture are several fold.

    1) The book of Revelation is written chronologically through prophetic time starting with the moment John encountered the resurrection Jesus on the island of Patmos. As I mentioned in an early post and on another thread, Rev 1:19 sets the time line for the book of Revelation: write the things that thou has seen (the resurected Jesus), the times that are ( the seven church ages of which we are in the seventh currently and final before the rapture) , and the times that are hereafter starting in Rev 4:1 which is a rapture verse.

    2) The seven feast days are prophetic of important events in the Bible time line. The first 4 feast days were fulfilled after 4000 years, after the 4th decree in 444 BC set forth the time of His passion, where Jesus from the 4th tribe of Israel became the Lamb of God after 4 days on the 14th day of Nissan after He entered the city on Palm Sunday, the 10th day of Nissan after He had raised Lazarus on the 4th day after his death a week before. I don't get into numerology, but don't you think God is trying to tell us something with the number 4 and the first coming of Christ. The other 3 feast days are yet to be fulfilled, but you can easily show how they will be fulfilled during and after the second coming of Christ, once again, in perfect chronological order. There is a definite pattern and form to what the Bible alone is trying to teach us.

    A) Passover: Jesus became our Passover and the sacrificial Lamb when He died on the cross. I Cor 5:7
    Feast of Unleavened Bread: Jesus fulfills the last covenant first and ushers in the church age.
    1 Cor 5:8
    Feast of First Fruit: Jesus fulfills this feast day on the "morrow" after the Passover Sabbath when He
    arose from the grave. I Cor 15:20
    Feast of Weeks: Jesus fulfilled this feast day when He sent the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
    Acts 2:1

    B) Day of Trumpets: There are only two places where the Day of Trumpets is mentioned in the Bible, Lev 23:24 as a memorial, or for the dead first, and then in Numbers 29:1 for the living. When you look at Paul's mention of the rapture in i Thess. 4:13-18, you must understand the incredible wisdom Paul gleaned from Old Testament prophetic fulfillment in the New Testament that you see throughout his epistles. You can then tie this into verses written by John in the book of Revelation which once again shows that Rev 4:1 is a rapture verse in chronological order prophetically.

    Day of Atonement, even though Jesus became our atonement when He died on the cross, the
    Atonement of Israel has not yet been fulfilled. Zech chapters 12,13, and 14 show the events
    surrounding the second coming which is for Israel. Specifically, Zech 12:10 and !3:1 show when the
    Lord will open a fountain for the cleansing of sins.

    The Day of Trumpets fulfilled in Revelation 4:1 will usher in the tribulation which begins in Rev chapter
    6 with the seven seals. The Day of Atonement ushers in the Millenial reign of Jesus for a thousand
    years after He returns with all of His saints in Rev chapter 19. So after 4000 years, Jesus fulfilled in
    person the first 4 feast days, after 2000 years, He will fulfill the next two feast days.

    C) The Feast of Tabernacles: Take a look at Zech 14;16 where the whole earth will be required to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This verse was the one that puzzled me to look into the reason why they would keep this feast and not the Passover. That lead me to the entire study of the seven feast days that I have very briefly outlined above. Why this feast day and not the Passover? Jesus will fulfill the first covenant last with His chosen people, the Jews. People really forget that every promise that Jesus made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must be fulfilled or Jesus is a liar. He does this during the first ressurection during the millenial reign. A very interesting verse is the very last one in the book of Ezekiel, it tells the story. Thus, after another 1000 years, the Lord will fulfill the last feast day. They turn out to be a perfect countdown of the seven thousand years of earth's history and then eternity for those in heaven and hell.

    The other theories of the rapture have many problems when you begin to compare OT and NT prophecies which correlate together. For these reasons, I believe that the Bible tells us very clearly that it will be Pre-trib.

  6. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by HK4U View Post
    Thanks Ringo. I did not really figure most of us here would get up set if there were differing opinions but I have known those on both sides of the debate to get pretty heated up over the issue. One thing I absolutely do believe is that with all that is happening it seems that what ever the sequence of events we are rapidly approaching that day and no matter how long we have each day we are one day closer.
    Amen to that HK. Maranatha.
    The Most Important Thing That You Can Do In This Life, Is To Determine "WHERE" You Will "LIVE" In The Next Life.

  7. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alaska444 View Post
    There are several views of the tribulation even some that deny the tribulation at all. Some assert that the book of Revelation was already fulfilled during the destruction of Jerusalem during the Roman conquest of 70 AD and most of those adherents are the preterists. There are the mid trib folks and the pre-wrath Rosenthal folks. At one point early in my Christian experience, I was an old earth creationist and a pre-wrath believer. I continued to ask questions to God as well as whoever would talk about the subject which was much easier in the early 90's than it is now. I searched the Scriptures with great interest especially in the area of Bible prophecy. I really have no doubts whatsoever on the pre-trib issue. Bible prophecy is my favorite topic of all.

    As far as the pre-trib issue, the basis for my belief in this and why I no longer believe in the pre-wrath rapture are several fold.

    1) The book of Revelation is written chronologically through prophetic time starting with the moment John encountered the resurrection Jesus on the island of Patmos. As I mentioned in an early post and on another thread, Rev 1:19 sets the time line for the book of Revelation: write the things that thou has seen (the resurected Jesus), the times that are ( the seven church ages of which we are in the seventh currently and final before the rapture) , and the times that are hereafter starting in Rev 4:1 which is a rapture verse.

    2) The seven feast days are prophetic of important events in the Bible time line. The first 4 feast days were fulfilled after 4000 years, after the 4th decree in 444 BC set forth the time of His passion, where Jesus from the 4th tribe of Israel became the Lamb of God after 4 days on the 14th day of Nissan after He entered the city on Palm Sunday, the 10th day of Nissan after He had raised Lazarus on the 4th day after his death a week before. I don't get into numerology, but don't you think God is trying to tell us something with the number 4 and the first coming of Christ. The other 3 feast days are yet to be fulfilled, but you can easily show how they will be fulfilled during and after the second coming of Christ, once again, in perfect chronological order. There is a definite pattern and form to what the Bible alone is trying to teach us.

    A) Passover: Jesus became our Passover and the sacrificial Lamb when He died on the cross. I Cor 5:7
    Feast of Unleavened Bread: Jesus fulfills the last covenant first and ushers in the church age.
    1 Cor 5:8
    Feast of First Fruit: Jesus fulfills this feast day on the "morrow" after the Passover Sabbath when He
    arose from the grave. I Cor 15:20
    Feast of Weeks: Jesus fulfilled this feast day when He sent the Holy Spirit on the day of Pentecost.
    Acts 2:1

    B) Day of Trumpets: There are only two places where the Day of Trumpets is mentioned in the Bible, Lev 23:24 as a memorial, or for the dead first, and then in Numbers 29:1 for the living. When you look at Paul's mention of the rapture in i Thess. 4:13-18, you must understand the incredible wisdom Paul gleaned from Old Testament prophetic fulfillment in the New Testament that you see throughout his epistles. You can then tie this into verses written by John in the book of Revelation which once again shows that Rev 4:1 is a rapture verse in chronological order prophetically.

    Day of Atonement, even though Jesus became our atonement when He died on the cross, the
    Atonement of Israel has not yet been fulfilled. Zech chapters 12,13, and 14 show the events
    surrounding the second coming which is for Israel. Specifically, Zech 12:10 and !3:1 show when the
    Lord will open a fountain for the cleansing of sins.

    The Day of Trumpets fulfilled in Revelation 4:1 will usher in the tribulation which begins in Rev chapter
    6 with the seven seals. The Day of Atonement ushers in the Millenial reign of Jesus for a thousand
    years after He returns with all of His saints in Rev chapter 19. So after 4000 years, Jesus fulfilled in
    person the first 4 feast days, after 2000 years, He will fulfill the next two feast days.

    C) The Feast of Tabernacles: Take a look at Zech 14;16 where the whole earth will be required to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. This verse was the one that puzzled me to look into the reason why they would keep this feast and not the Passover. That lead me to the entire study of the seven feast days that I have very briefly outlined above. Why this feast day and not the Passover? Jesus will fulfill the first covenant last with His chosen people, the Jews. People really forget that every promise that Jesus made to Abraham, Isaac and Jacob must be fulfilled or Jesus is a liar. He does this during the first ressurection during the millenial reign. A very interesting verse is the very last one in the book of Ezekiel, it tells the story. Thus, after another 1000 years, the Lord will fulfill the last feast day. They turn out to be a perfect countdown of the seven thousand years of earth's history and then eternity for those in heaven and hell.

    The other theories of the rapture have many problems when you begin to compare OT and NT prophecies which correlate together. For these reasons, I believe that the Bible tells us very clearly that it will be Pre-trib.
    Excellent Alaska, that's the way I learned it too.
    The Most Important Thing That You Can Do In This Life, Is To Determine "WHERE" You Will "LIVE" In The Next Life.

  8. #17
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    ALASKA, I can't always nail down the exact sequence of events, but let me ask you if you agree that at the Rapture, all of the saints (believers) from the beginning, will be Raptured? Then, the first resurrection takes place at the end of the Tribulation/beginning of the millennium , to include those martyred during the Tribulation. This is the Bema Seat judgment. The second resurrection is at the end of the millennium where all non-believers are judged (White Throne Judgment) and cast into the Lake of Fire for all eternity. Note, many consider the Rapture as a resurrection also ,making it three resurrections. What is your understanding?
    The Most Important Thing That You Can Do In This Life, Is To Determine "WHERE" You Will "LIVE" In The Next Life.

  9. #18
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    Exclamation The big book on the coffee table!!!

    It has all the answers to life's itty bitty questions. All we have to do is read and digest the info. God set us up for success with widom and great examples of both what to do and what not to do! My advice is to read and heed every word in the book. Ask God for clarity and study up. The way the world is going there will not be a bible in your cell when they start rounding up Christians.
    FESTUS
    IN OMNIA PARATUS

  10. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by festus View Post
    It has all the answers to life's itty bitty questions. All we have to do is read and digest the info. God set us up for success with widom and great examples of both what to do and what not to do! My advice is to read and heed every word in the book. Ask God for clarity and study up. The way the world is going there will not be a bible in your cell when they start rounding up Christians.
    The one thing I do know for sure is that I won't be around when they start rounding up Christians, that much is clear.
    The Most Important Thing That You Can Do In This Life, Is To Determine "WHERE" You Will "LIVE" In The Next Life.

  11. #20
    In many countries the rounding up of Christians, great persecution, has been going on for a long time. We in this country have enjoyed freedoms much of the world would give everything they have to obtain. Many of you know who Corrie ten Boom was. Perhaps you have read the book or seen the Movie the Hiding Place. In one of her other books she wrote that a minister in China told her once that if he had one thing to do over again he would not teach his flock about a pre trib rapture. When she ask why he said when the communists took over China and great persecution came upon the church the Christians wanted to know why God had not "raptured" them out before their tribulation started. It really shook their faith. How long will it be before real persecution comes here in America. I don't know for sure but I am afraid it will be sooner than later. The one thing I am sure of is it will come.
    By faith Noah,being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear,prepared an ark to the saving of his house;by the which he condemned the world,and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith Heb.11:7

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