a question for our military folks....


B

boyzoi

Guest
this goes out to all of the military personel either active or inactive from any branch.
First please do not take this as a challange to you personally.......it is not!!!
With the election upon us and the chance that we will have a President that will challange the core of the Constitution, the 2nd.....I was wondering.

The Oath of Enlistment (for enlistees):

"I, _____, do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that I will obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice. So help me God."

The Oath of Office (for officers):

"I, _____ (SSAN), having been appointed an officer in the Army of the United States, as indicated above in the grade of _____ do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign or domestic, that I will bear true faith and allegiance tot he same; that I take this obligation freely, without any mental reservations or purpose of evasion; and that I will well and faithfully discharge the duties of the office upon which I am about to enter; So help me God."


above you can see that at swearing in you are giving your oath to protecting the Constitution FIRST (from foreign and domestic enemies )and then the office of President......in the officers oath the President is not mentioned.
When do you draw the line........if one knows that a potential President will likely destroy(based on his past record) the 2nd A and that is a fundemental of the Contstitution are you obligated to vote to protect the constitution? applies to senators and congressman too.
along the same lines but only if some of tthe more radical scenarios come to pass, are you obligated to take arms against your fellow Americans who may be gathering to fight for the 2ndA and would you follow your ordres from the President to shoot or would you ultimately stand and follow your oath to protect the Constitution???
Again, I mean no disrespect I am seriously interested as I have spoken to and put this in front of many police officers I work with and...........well I was surprised:eek:
 

festus

God Bless Our Troops!!!
I swore an oath to defend the Constitution

I will defend her to my last dying breath.
 
Article 90 of the UCMJ willfully disobeys a lawful command of his superior commissioned officer; shall be punished, if the offense is committed in time of war, by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct, and if the offense is committed at any other time, by such punishment, other than death, as a court-martial may direct.”

during times of war, a military member who willfully disobeys a superior commissioned officer can be sentenced to death

Article 91 of the UCMJ willfully disobeys the lawful order of a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer; or
treats with contempt or is disrespectful in language or deportment toward a warrant officer, noncommissioned officer, or petty officer while that officer is in the execution of his office; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

Article 92 of the UCMJ

violates or fails to obey any lawful general order or regulation;

having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces, which it is his duty to obey, fails to obey the order; or

is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.”

(1) Violation of or failure to obey a lawful general order or regulation.

(a) That there was in effect a certain lawful general order or regulation;

(b) That the accused had a duty to obey it; and

(c) That the accused violated or failed to obey the order or regulation.

(2) Failure to obey other lawful order.

(a) That a member of the armed forces issued a certain lawful order;

(b) That the accused had knowledge of the order;

(c) That the accused had a duty to obey the order; and

(d) That the accused failed to obey the order
These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. An order which is unlawful not only does not need to be obeyed, but obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution of the one who obeys it

Article 94 of the UCMJ

"Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuse, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;

(2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;

(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.

(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition shall be punished by death or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct

If any use solder open fires and kills a US CIV you can count on a all out civil war.. Unless he was a BG attacking the troops or doing some crime. But if the order comes down to shoot CIV's that will start a war with in the US.
 
On a side note, I would be/ am more worried about Police officers Shooting us. There are a lot out there who are just waiting to use there guns. If a order came to them i have no doubt they would open fire and kill us. Idk what the police said who you talked to. But most of them would kill us with out thinking about it.
 
B

boyzoi

Guest
1st post.........I know what the ucmj is and posting it isnt the answer.......it expalins what wil happen if you disobey etc...loaded with catch 22's imo......thats the point of my post.....you have your orders which are in direct conflict to the first thing you did...take your oath to defend the Constitution first.....????
2nd post.......you hit the nail on the head, and having worked as close as I have with some of the ones I asked I was shocked. if given the order "they say" they will shoot. how much of that is bravado....not sure I want to be there to find out. To me there is no dilema.....as Festus stated........its the Constitution, period!!!
 
I would'nt pass on any illegal or unlawful orders. As a leader, it's my responsibility protect those under me from such orders. I've taken the heat on several occasions where we received "questionable" orders. I have never been prosecuted or charged for disobeying orders. I did have to go a couple of rounds with JAG officers, but in the end, I was never charged with wrong doing.




gf
 
1st post.........I know what the ucmj is and posting it isnt the answer.......it expalins what wil happen if you disobey etc...loaded with catch 22's imo......thats the point of my post.....you have your orders which are in direct conflict to the first thing you did...take your oath to defend the Constitution first.....????
2nd post.......you hit the nail on the head, and having worked as close as I have with some of the ones I asked I was shocked. if given the order "they say" they will shoot. how much of that is bravado....not sure I want to be there to find out. To me there is no dilema.....as Festus stated........its the Constitution, period!!!

LOL that's my point. How fucked up is that. The people who should be Protecting us Are chopping at the bits to not do so. They want to kill us lol. I think they forget that it's just a job and will not last forever. They will shit them self's when they are being shot at by police. Just a few that come to mind ( NYPD,LAPD,NOPD.)
 

pistol pete

New member
Very interesting thread. Bad days are just around the corner and wondered about alot of what is being talked about here.
If you look at what happened after hurricane Katrina, I think you might find some answers.
The people paid to serve and protect went rogue. many just left and went awal. Others began to loot. The order was given to take away law abiding citizens guns, and they did, even by force.
In a time when the people really needed their guns to protect themselves, the cops went door to door taking them away.
Gangs took over the streets. People were raped, robbed and killed. They were unable to defend themselves and the people paid to defend them did nothing.
When the liberal left wing commies take over america and surrender it to our enemies will the Military step in?
Will we see citizens become minute men again?
 

boris

New member
my .02..

1. if i were active these days, i would shoot a officer who ordered me to violate the constitution.
2. my oath was to the constitution and the country and the state of texas. i would defend them and my family to the death. against all comers.
 

pistol pete

New member
I pray there are still men like you in our military today. These terrible and unthinkable choices might have to be made.
 
Point in case why i have more fear of being shot by POLICE!!

ANAHEIM, Calif. – A newlywed killed by police after he stepped outside his home to confront suspected burglars was shot in a case of mistaken identity, police said.

Julian Alexander died after being shot twice in the chest by a police officer who was chasing four burglary suspects early Tuesday morning.

Police Chief John Welter said the officer ran into Alexander, mistook him for one of the four juvenile suspects and shot him.

"The last thing we ever want to do, No. 1, (is) take somebody's life," he said. "And we certainly don't want to take the life of someone who is mistakenly believed to be involved in some criminal activity."

"He was a good kid, trying to protect his house," said Alexander's mother-in-law Michelle Mooney. "And the police, instead of asking questions, they just shot first. Somebody has to be held responsible for this."

Welter would not release the officer's name, but said he was a 10-year veteran of the department. The officer was placed on paid leave pending an investigation.

"It's mistaken identity, but that doesn't bring my son back," said Alexander's father Jerry.

He said Alexander got married last weekend and his 19-year-old wife is expecting a baby in December.

Alexander's wife said she heard the gunshots and tried to go into the yard, but the officer told her to stay inside. From the window they saw Alexander handcuffed and bleeding in the front yard.

Paramedics treated him at the scene and took him to a hospital, where he was pronounced dead.

The four burglary suspects were detained and interviewed, but no arrests were made.
( looks like killing him was enough no need to do our jobs, we got to shoot our guns it was a good day)

Welter said investigators would interview the officer to determine what commands he gave to Alexander before he fired. Investigations will be conducted by the FBI, the Orange County Office of Independent Review and the district attorney's office, Welter said.

I am not in the military. I would go AWOL. I would not open fire on my own block killing my friends and family. We should start a Website called the MMFTC. ( Min Men For the constitution) or something like that lol.
 
Last edited:

boris

New member
prayerfully

and hopefully, these sorts of decisions will NEVER have to be made. but, most if not all soldiers are products of the public school sytem. draw your own conclusions.
 

kwo51

New member
I think it will be between the have and have nots,very shortly after going black on white.:frown:
 

festus

God Bless Our Troops!!!
An army general in AK took away constitutional rights

Alaska General bans military personel from carrying OFF POST ,OFF DUTY
http://www.usarak.army.mil/policies/PUBS-ACROBAT/USARAK_Policies/CGCOFS POLICY STATEMENT 20.pdf ^

Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 4:32:39 PM by vrwc0915

APVR-RUPM DEPARTMENT THE ARMY HEADQUARTERS, ARMY ALASKA 724 SERVICE LOOP FORT RICHARDSON, ALASKA 99505-5000 21 FEB 06 MEMORANDUM FOR SEE DISTRIBUTION SUBJECT: Concealed Weapons Policy (CG/CofS Policy #0-20) 1. Carrying concealed deadly weapons by USARAK Soldiers represents a significant risk to the safety and welfare of this command. Accordingly, all Soldiers assigned or attached to USARAK are prohibited from carrying a concealed deadly weapon in public places off of all USARAK posts. All persons are prohibited from carrying concealed deadly weapons on USARAK posts IAW USARAK Regulation 190-1

I wrote my congressman, senator and the governor to no avail. The US Army IG would not take any action either. This guy is the exact model for the question you have asked and why a lot of us are so pissed off.:butcher:
 
B

boyzoi

Guest
Alaska General bans military personel from carrying OFF POST ,OFF DUTY
http://www.usarak.army.mil/policies/PUBS-ACROBAT/USARAK_Policies/CGCOFS POLICY STATEMENT 20.pdf ^

Posted on Monday, March 13, 2006 4:32:39 PM by vrwc0915

APVR-RUPM DEPARTMENT THE ARMY HEADQUARTERS, ARMY ALASKA 724 SERVICE LOOP FORT RICHARDSON, ALASKA 99505-5000 21 FEB 06 MEMORANDUM FOR SEE DISTRIBUTION SUBJECT: Concealed Weapons Policy (CG/CofS Policy #0-20) 1. Carrying concealed deadly weapons by USARAK Soldiers represents a significant risk to the safety and welfare of this command. Accordingly, all Soldiers assigned or attached to USARAK are prohibited from carrying a concealed deadly weapon in public places off of all USARAK posts. All persons are prohibited from carrying concealed deadly weapons on USARAK posts IAW USARAK Regulation 190-1

I wrote my congressman, senator and the governor to no avail. The US Army IG would not take any action either. This guy is the exact model for the question you have asked and why a lot of us are so pissed off.:butcher:

Exactly......and it is exactly why I asked the ?. so, what are these enlisted going to do, do you think?
I think there will be more and more situations just like this as we go along. something I had heard, will look for the quote, is that the military which used to be predominatly conservative is now swinging to a more liberal group from enlisted up. that I think could be why we will see more like this example and worse.:suicide2:
 

boris

New member
perhaps..

Vice President Palin would like a few words with the general...... i never cared much for officers anyway. except for Lt. shhhh and Capt. hush, the rest are just a bunch of paper pushing geeks. in my opinion. there are i am sure other good ones,but not to my persponal knowledge.
 

New Threads

Staff online

Members online

Forum statistics

Threads
49,128
Messages
621,631
Members
74,103
Latest member
jawman
Top