Another "Self defense-free-zone" attacked


Boofreakinyah

Glock 23c
KNOXVILLE, Tenn. - One person was killed and eight others wounded after a gunman entered a church in Knoxville, Tenn., and opened fire with a shotgun, police said.

Knoxville Police Chief Sterling Owen said a longtime church member was killed during the Sunday morning shooting. He identified the man killed as 60-year-old Greg McKendry, an usher at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church on Kingston Pike.

Police said the gunman is in custody. A hospital spokeswoman said five of the wounded are in critical condition.

A church member who arrived moments after the shooting says the gunman opened fire as congregants watched a youth performance. He said none of those injured were children.

A children’s production of “Annie” was taking place at the time of the shooting. Steve Drevik, a church member, described the shooter as a man with long blond hair, who appeared to be in his 40s. He said he walked into the sanctuary and began shooting indiscriminately.

Several people had head wounds, Drevik said. Drevick said no one at the church recognized the gunman, who was tackled after he fired the shots, Drevick said. The gunman had more ammunition on him, Drevick said.

There were about 200 people in the church at the time of the shooting. Police had cordoned off the church with yellow and red tape, and were taking statements and collecting video cameras from church members who had been taping the performance.

A woman from a nearby Presbyterian church brought flowers to the scene. Carrie Niceley, 19, said an announcement about the shooting was made while she was attending her church Sunday.

MSNBC News Services
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
The title of this thread is misleading. While it is indeed true that churches are off limits to CC in most states, TN is not one of them. CC with a permit is legal there; apparently in this incident, either no one was carrying, or no one fired back. You should have checked the TN page for a list of off limits places before referring to this church as a "self defense free zone" because as far as the law is concerned, it is not a victim disarmament zone.
 

HK4U

New member
I don't think your personal religious preferences and prejudices have any place on this thread.

If anybody wants to get their blood REALLY on the boil, look at this page of comments on the shooting from Chicago. Wow!

Reports: Church shooting in Tennessee injures several people; s... - Topix


I agree. Although I do not agree with what this particular religious group believes or teaches the fact is this can happen in any church anywhere anytime. It was a Baptist church that several were gunned down inf Fort Worth about 10 or 11 years ago. The point is no one is safe anywhere so you better be prepared to defend yourself.
 
God has spoken to me. I must carry my firearm where ever it's legal to do so. BG can strike at anytime. For those churches that prohibit or restrict carry, I must stay away and work to educate them on the importance of allowing their congregation members to protect themselves.

Should I be called on one day to serve God and use my defensive firearm to protect myself as well as others who are in church with me, I will do so to the best of my ability. God will guide me and give me the wisdom and insight of who the BG are and help me to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible with minimal blood shed. Once the BG are on the ground, God will deal with their souls.

I've always believed in carrying where legal at all times. Some folks call me "paranoid". I tell them that I'm "being prepared". A close friend of mine asked me to leave my firearm at his house when we went to his church. I told him that the day I leave the house without my firearm will be the day that I wish I had it. After a brief discussion he asked me if it would be "obvious" that I was carrying. I responded "I'm carrying it now". He could not detect the firearm in my IWB holster at 11:00 or my ankle holster. At this point he was satisfied that my firearms would not be detected and he wouldn't be "shamed" in front of the congregation. We went to the service, everthing went well and we stuck around after the service for a small luncheon that they had. During the luncheon I was able to chat with the Pastor. I asked him how he felt about members of his congregation legally carrying in his church. His response was that if the folks had a permit and were discreet as to not alarm other church members, then he had no problem. He then discreetly told me that he carries his 1911 in a SOB holster. He basically told me that God's will will prevail, but there's no harm in responsible citizens taking responsibility for their own protection.

Needless to say my friend has no problem carrying his XD 40 to church. ;-)



gf
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
God has spoken to me. I must carry my firearm where ever it's legal to do so. BG can strike at anytime. For those churches that prohibit or restrict carry, I must stay away and work to educate them on the importance of allowing their congregation members to protect themselves.

Should I be called on one day to serve God and use my defensive firearm to protect myself as well as others who are in church with me, I will do so to the best of my ability. God will guide me and give me the wisdom and insight of who the BG are and help me to eliminate the threat as quickly as possible with minimal blood shed. Once the BG are on the ground, God will deal with their souls.

I've always believed in carrying where legal at all times. Some folks call me "paranoid". I tell them that I'm "being prepared". A close friend of mine asked me to leave my firearm at his house when we went to his church. I told him that the day I leave the house without my firearm will be the day that I wish I had it. After a brief discussion he asked me if it would be "obvious" that I was carrying. I responded "I'm carrying it now". He could not detect the firearm in my IWB holster at 11:00 or my ankle holster. At this point he was satisfied that my firearms would not be detected and he wouldn't be "shamed" in front of the congregation. We went to the service, everthing went well and we stuck around after the service for a small luncheon that they had. During the luncheon I was able to chat with the Pastor. I asked him how he felt about members of his congregation legally carrying in his church. His response was that if the folks had a permit and were discreet as to not alarm other church members, then he had no problem. He then discreetly told me that he carries his 1911 in a SOB holster. He basically told me that God's will will prevail, but there's no harm in responsible citizens taking responsibility for their own protection.

Needless to say my friend has no problem carrying his XD 40 to church. ;-)



gf

I would go even further and say that I carry in places where it is not legal over the course of a day. Of course I try not to make a habit of it, but I do not own a car, so everywhere I go I either have to walk or ride the bus. I walk past schools all the time and have even been on school property several times. Nevertheless, I'm not advocating breaking the law; all I'm saying is that sometimes protecting one's self means going places where the law says you can't go, but you must anyway for whatever reason.
 

Boofreakinyah

Glock 23c
Interesting responses

You should have checked the TN page for a list of off limits places before referring to this church as a "self defense free zone" because as far as the law is concerned, it is not a victim disarmament zone.

I thought that this was one place where we were nearly all on the same page. I did my homework on this one but I'm sorry that you didn't like the title of the thread. I rarely run into a conservative elitist. This is a LIBERAL church who's beliefs and teachings are pro gays, pro gun control etc. The false teachings of this place are at at least a part of the reason it was targeted for this attack and also do make this place a "disarmament zone" by virtue of the psychological effect on its members.

It bothers me that we, as members of the same "team", with the same goals in mind, would make comments to the negative based upon the wording of a thread title.
 

HK4U

New member
I thought that this was one place where we were nearly all on the same page. I did my homework on this one but I'm sorry that you didn't like the title of the thread. I rarely run into a conservative elitist. This is a LIBERAL church who's beliefs and teachings are pro gays, pro gun control etc. The false teachings of this place are at at least a part of the reason it was targeted for this attack and also do make this place a "disarmament zone" by virtue of the psychological effect on its members.

It bothers me that we, as members of the same "team", with the same goals in mind, would make comments to the negative based upon the wording of a thread title.

I think the point he was trying to make was that as far as state laws go it is not a gun free zone. Back in the late 90's Wedgewood Baptist Church in Fort worth was the seen of a mad mans attac. Wedgwood is a conservative Bible believing church and yet it was not spared. Fact is there is a lot of evil out there and as I have said before there is no place really safe anymore. I am posting a site with some infor on the Wedgewood shooting. There are other sites as well for those that would like more information.

Wedgwood Baptist Church Shooting, Sept 15, '99
 

Boofreakinyah

Glock 23c
Fact is there is a lot of evil out there and as I have said before there is no place really safe anymore.

That was exactly my point. It really doesnt matter if the LAW written in the book makes it a "gun free zone" or if being fed false and dangerous information makes a place a "gun free zone", there really are few places we can experience a feeling of relative safety. I live in california and am painfully aware of my inability to legally protect myself or my family pretty much anywhere....including at church.
---------------------------------------------

Info:
The Unitarian Universalist Association’s stance is to protect the personal right to choose abortion. Other contemporary views include working for equality for homosexuals, gender equality, a secular approach to divorce and remarriage, working to end poverty, promoting peace and nonviolence, and environmental protection.
 
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Shoots Running

New member
I'm wondering why you felt it necessary to post your add-on called "Info." Are you holding them up to ridicule with our particular "demographics" as, generally, conservative gun-owners? It would seem so to me, otherwise why post it? I would hate to think it was posted as some sort of veiled "they deserved it" remark, and refuse to think that it was. Still...

They are the victims here, and I don't think their beliefs or the tenets of their sect or denomination should enter into discussions about what happened to them.

Perhaps I am misreading your intentions. If so, I will be quick to offer apologies for ruffled feathers.
 

Boofreakinyah

Glock 23c
Perhaps I am misreading your intentions. If so, I will be quick to offer apologies for ruffled feathers.

I was accused of badly naming this thread because I did not do my homework beforehand. I added the information to support the fact that they are a LIBERAL church and that because of the false information they are being fed, their church is a psychological "gun free zone".

NEVER would I believe, let alone post, any feeling that they "Had it coming". Quite the contrary...I am frustrated that these people were misled into dangerous and ultimately fatal beliefs. They were really victims twice.
 

Shoots Running

New member
OK. Thanks. Might have been better (that ol' 20-20 hindsight!) to have said THAT along with the post.

Quakers are that way, too, you know. And quite a few other groups. I have to say that I still think you were "going after" them to some extent. You certainly have that right.

But let's not get into a thing. Let it pass in the interests of the many points of AGREEMENT that we surely have.
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
I was accused of badly naming this thread because I did not do my homework beforehand. I added the information to support the fact that they are a LIBERAL church and that because of the false information they are being fed, their church is a psychological "gun free zone".

NEVER would I believe, let alone post, any feeling that they "Had it coming". Quite the contrary...I am frustrated that these people were misled into dangerous and ultimately fatal beliefs. They were really victims twice.

When you created this thread, I'm certain that you weren't referring to the church as a victim disarmament zone in the psychological sense, because if you were, you would have said so knowing that churches are in fact not off limits to permit holders in TN. As for the church being liberal, you have absolutely no evidence of what the members are being taught regarding RKBA, so make absolutely sure you know what you're talking about before you start mentioning all these hypotheticals; for all you know this church could be more pro gun than you are. Finally, two people are dead and all you are doing is ridiculing them for being members of that church; it's almost as if you are blaming their deaths on them being members of a denomination that you claim is anti gun. I agree that this church's teachings are questionable at best, but it is totally inappropriate for you to be ridiculing the church and not the gunman.
 

Boofreakinyah

Glock 23c
Are You Kidding Me?

When you created this thread, I'm certain that you weren't referring to the church as a victim disarmament zone in the psychological sense, because if you were, you would have said so knowing that churches are in fact not off limits to permit holders in TN. As for the church being liberal, you have absolutely no evidence of what the members are being taught regarding RKBA, so make absolutely sure you know what you're talking about before you start mentioning all these hypotheticals; for all you know this church could be more pro gun than you are. Finally, two people are dead and all you are doing is ridiculing them for being members of that church; it's almost as if you are blaming their deaths on them being members of a denomination that you claim is anti gun. I agree that this church's teachings are questionable at best, but it is totally inappropriate for you to be ridiculing the church and not the gunman.

It must be an amazing burden for you being the smartest man in the room at all times. How exactly is it that you are certain about something you know nothing about? And how exactly is it that you know what "evidence" I have about anything? Your arrogance and ignorance are astounding. My brother and Siter-in-Law ARE Unitarian Universalists and I know exactly what crap they are fed. That's my evidence. I've spent years trying to talk sense and debating their beliefs with my Brother.

Ridiculing them? For God's sake. I have read and re-read my original post and every other. Where the Hell are you reading ridicule? You didn't even take that stance until it was somehow mentioned by someone else. How can frustration and sadness over unnecessary, preventable deaths...possibly be confused with ridicule.

UNBELIEVABLE! I was so excited to finally find a forum that was filled with people that held intelligent, logical opinions where I could discuss extremely important issues with fellow mebers of a common cause...and I am attacked by a fellow member based upon "the wording of a thread title." Then he is going to question all of my intentions and thoughts as if he knows them better than I. Seems there is always at least one elitist egomaniac in every forum that needs to constantly remind everyone in the room how incredibly smart and wise he is regardless of the actual facts. You can have your room Brother. Hopefully all of your sheep will stay and give you your daily stroke.
 
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Danno

New member
Here in SC, we have to have the "Leaders of the Church" approve carrying in the Church. My church is currently starting a Security Committee, and this is a topic that is coming up.

I think it is imperative to have armed members in the church, as well as having a few that do "rounds" during the service - especially towards the back of the church, where Childrens Church and the Nursery are located.
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
It must be an amazing burden for you being the smartest man in the room at all times. How exactly is it that you are certain about something you know nothing about? And how exactly is it that you know what "evidence" I have about anything? Your arrogance and ignorance are astounding. My brother and Siter-in-Law ARE Unitarian Universalists and I know exactly what crap they are fed. That's my evidence. I've spent years trying to talk sense and debating their beliefs with my Brother.

Ridiculing them? For God's sake. I have read and re-read my original post and every other. Where the Hell are you reading ridicule? You didn't even take that stance until it was somehow mentioned by someone else. How can frustration and sadness over unnecessary, preventable deaths...possibly be confused with ridicule.

UNBELIEVABLE! I was so excited to finally find a forum that was filled with people that held intelligent, logical opinions where I could discuss extremely important issues with fellow mebers of a common cause...and I am attacked by a fellow member based upon "the wording of a thread title." Then he is going to question all of my intentions and thoughts as if he knows them better than I. Seems there is always at least one elitist egomaniac in every forum that needs to constantly remind everyone in the room how incredibly smart and wise he is regardless of the actual facts. You can have your room Brother. Hopefully all of your sheep will stay and give you your daily stroke.


Whoa, calm down there, Boofreakinyah! Without turning this thread into a flame war, I am not being elitist; I'm just simply calling it as I see it. It would seem to me that if you want to discuss the church and its liberal inclinations, the place for that would be in the off topic section, not in 2nd amendment issues. Even still, I am not being elitist in explaining how disrespectful I believe it is to the victims to be railing against the church and not against the gunman when the most important issue at hand is the fact that two innnocent people lost their lives. To me what we should be discussing is not the church and its teachings, but how something like this can be prevented in the future, whether it is against a virulently anti gun church denomination or anyone else.

As for the church and its teachings, news did just break that the gunman's motive was indeed the fact that the church taught things that he did not agree with. In the wake of that information, indeed a separate forum on that would be a good idea, as long as we all show respect for the innocent victims.
 
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DrLewall

Charter Member
why is it when either talk of politics or religion, an argument takes place? I will not discuss ether as you can not argue with a fool. I'm outtahere!
 

Shoots Running

New member
No more skunk fights, guys.

I thought Bookfreakinyah was wrong to post as he did and told him so. He responded. We don't agree with each other. So what? Let's move on

We have too much in common -- not to mention "at stake" -- to get in pissin' contests that don't ultimately matter.
 

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