Ar 15 guys I'm about to tick you off!


rugerfan.64

New member
OK folks, I know there are millions and millions of AR fans out there, I know a bunch of em. I was issued a M16 during my basic training at Ft Sill OK, OOAAHH,back in 83. It wasn't a Colt. No big deal,my buddies were issued Colts,and a variety of other brands,hell one of em was an International Harvester. The point I am finally getting around to (we do that in the south,get around to things),is this. During basic the M-16 shot very well,as long as i didnt want to shoot more than 3 rounds at a time. Yes it was clean! I could shoot 3,clear it ,shoot 3. I got pretty good at it too. We all did. Now then that I am finished hackin on how it shot,lets continue on to bayonet training. There is a move called a butt stroke. Any one ever heard of that? Its when a soldier inflicts a blow to an opponents body or preferably head( which can occur in close combat),and here in lies the weakness of the M-16 AR 15 platform,at least in my humble opinion. A butt stroke is a violent strike,the idea is to kill or incapacitate the enemy so he doesn't do the same to you first. Our drills instructed us not to hit to hard with the butt of our rifles,why you may ask? If you strike someone hard enough the butt section of your beloved M-16 will fall off. Do you know what you have when the butt of the M-16 falls off? Aluminum club rings a bell? And yeah it happened. Saw it with my own eyes. And no it wasnt that hard of a strike.
Not only did the butt of your rifle fall off,your weapon is rendered inoperable. Because the return spring is housed in the buttstock. Hence the twang sound you hear and feel when you pull the trigger/ And so there you have it. This is the one thing that always got my goat about the M-16. I know I know,thats only one draw back,well two actually. When I got the first opportunity I purchased a Ruger Mini 14. I will admit the Mini isnt a Match rifle in stock form,but its alot better than minute of bad guy,its even minute of coyote. In a close fight,if i break the butt out of my Mini,and dont render the enemy incapable of resistance,I could always back up and shoot him. AR guys wouldnt have that option. Guess we better never leave our E tool at home. OK so now that I am sure I've just made alot of enemies. Its all in good fun,because I dont own a Mini any more,nor do I own an AR 15. Just food for thought. I am happy to see the military move away from the AR platform to the Sig.
82 charlie Attitude check !!!!
 

usvet

New member
I have been out for a long time,( '80-'86) but the M16A1 I was issued was a colt. Now I was in the Engineers (25th Infantry) and we always had the rifle slung over our backs while we constructed anything, the thing was constantly falling to the ground (unloaded of course), but it was pretty durable. We moved around in 5 ton dump trucks with jump seats, dropped it a few time from there to. I remember the hand guards broke a lot, and the front sight blades bent, the unit armor was always pissed off (REMF).

In basic, remember the move when you run and hit the prone position. Drop to your knees, dig the butt of the rifle in the ground to break fall, roll left or right and shoulder the weapon, that my have not been enough to break the thing. . Now, for some reason I do not remember the bayonet training. Fiberglass and plastic baby, nothing like solid wood. They should make them out of carbon fiber now.
 

Ropadope

eHarmony Reject
Since when is the military, any branch, replacing the M4/M16 with a Sig ? :sarcastic:

The only real change in weapons systems is the SCAR rifle that has been issued to some of the Ranger Batts. Possibly some of the SEAL teams as well, but I've not seen them yet in their hands. The M4 is still alive and well. Mk18, Mk11, MK12. SASS110 etc.

Feed me a reliable source that Sig is taking the place of any of the Colt, and LMT and FN carbine rifles, please ?

By the way, you don't "tick me off" because you obviously haven't carried and or fired anything but an old Mattel M16. Your experience is poor to say the least.
 

acheney46

New member
You are a Lair about the M-16 and if you want to Ft. Sill OK you are not Infantry.The Colt M-16 was and still is a great rifle...I carry it in the Army from 1981 to 1985.I was with the 82nd ABN DIV. I went to Basic training at Ft.Benning Ga.Infantry . I never had a problem with my rifle ,or when I was with the 82nd,I went to combat in 1983 Operation Urgent Fury ( The Invasion Grenda )and I or any one that I know of had any bad thoughts of our rifle.I trusted my life with it and today it still is a great rifle ,,, Remember guys it is the longest serving rifle in the US Army .ever,,,,That is for a reason,,,,not because it is a piece of shit,,,I also own a Bushmaster and it is a very good rifle,,,You tick me off and if you do not know what your are talking about shut up,,,,,,up north we get right to the point....A old rifleman in Maine
 

Cooter

Liberty or Death
Remember guys it is the longest serving rifle in the US Army .ever,,,,That is for a reason,,,,not because it is a piece of shit
Actually, the M-14 is the longest serving rifle in the US Military. 1957-present
It's still in 'limited front-line service' as well as ceremonial service.
M-16's officially were in service starting 1964.

That's ok though, I like your enthusiasm. :biggrin:
 

Red Hat

New member
In your diatribe you said there are millions and millions of AR fans out there. If there are that many fans then that should tell you something. If the platform didn't work then there wouldn't be that many fans.

If you fired in basic training in 83 you either fired a Colt or an Armalite M-16. IH never made an M-16 for the military or civilian use.

You stated you couldn't fire over 3 rounds at a time. If that was the case it sounds like you had a bad magazine. Failure to fire problems usually because of a bent feed lip on a training magazine that had been dropped too many times. I've trashed many magazines because of this. Yes the M-16 will become a little sluggish after a few thousand rounds but a squirt of CLP will take care of it for a while. About the time you were in basic we tried to see if we could melt a barrel on an M-16. We loaded couple thousand rounds in 30 rd mags. We fired them off as fast as we could on full auto. We had the barrel almost white hot. Other than a few FF's because of a bad mag and a few cook-offs it worked fine until it got too hot to hold. The hand guard didn't melt and didn't break. When it cooled off we gaged the barrel and it still met embarkation minimums and headspaced within tolerance.

You said if you hit someone with the buttstock it would fall off. First of all the buttstock won't fall off even if it's broken all the way around the stock. I can cut one in two and it will still stay on. I challenge anyone to hit a solid object with the buttstock and have it fall off. You may crack the stock but it won't fall off. The outside of the stock encases a very dense foam that will hold up to a lot of abuse. You stated it would render the M16 inoperable because the buffer spring is housed in the stock. The buffer spring is housed in the buffer tube not the stock. You don't even need a buttstock to operate the rifle. Bottom line is you hit someone with a butt strike and they are going down and the firearm will not fall apart.

I call BS on everything you said. I'm talking from experience not rumors and innuendo.

If the SHTF I'm grabbing one of my AR's. I have several M1 Garands and a couple M1A's but the AR platform will be my choice. Light weight and the 5.56 is a devastating round. A double tap will drop anyone.
 

DarrellM5

New member
It would be interesting to know how much of a "butt strike" these 6 position telescoping stocks could handle though. They seem kind of flimsy. I've never really given any thought to "butt strikes" as part of my training. I think I'll look into it more.
 

NDS

New member
Sweet! Nice and light. That old 7 pounder felt like 20 after 15 miles!
To be honest, I'm looking for a good deal on one. I want to see for myself if it's the POS many on the forums say it is. At the least, I'm thinking the lower would be a good starting point for a light rifle.
 

KimberPB

New member
To be honest, I'm looking for a good deal on one. I want to see for myself if it's the POS many on the forums say it is. At the least, I'm thinking the lower would be a good starting point for a light rifle.
I'm with you NDS. When I was building my last AR I wanted to go lightweight and looked into those. I wondered how the upper would hold up. Probably would have tried it out if they hadn't cost so much.

They also make a polymer one piece lower.

CAVALRY ARMS CORPORATION - Complete Polymer Lower Half [CAV-15] - $257.00 : AmeetecArms.com, Home of the AR15

I friend build a rifle using one of these lowers and has been happy with it. Although I don't think he's smacked anyone upside the head with the butt stock yet! Lol
 

acheney46

New member
Actually, the M-14 is the longest serving rifle in the US Military. 1957-present

I like to respond to cooper,,,The M14 was the shortest serve rifle in the army,,,1957 to 1964,,,,When they talk about the service of a rifle ,they mean when it is issue as a standard weapon...The M-16 has been a standard issue weapon to the US soldier since 1964,,,Just because they still use the M-14 it is not issue to you,,It is left over from then it was made before 1964,,,,,Airborne all the way
 

NDS

New member
I'm with you NDS. When I was building my last AR I wanted to go lightweight and looked into those. I wondered how the upper would hold up. Probably would have tried it out if they hadn't cost so much.

They also make a polymer one piece lower.

CAVALRY ARMS CORPORATION - Complete Polymer Lower Half [CAV-15] - $257.00 : AmeetecArms.com, Home of the AR15

I friend build a rifle using one of these lowers and has been happy with it. Although I don't think he's smacked anyone upside the head with the butt stock yet! Lol
Thanks for posting the link; I didn't know anyone had a number of those in stock any more. Next time I'm in Phoenix I'll stop by Ameetec (assuming he actually comes in these days--that guy used to keep really strange hours). Since Cavalry ran into trouble with BATFE those have been hard to come by and the price has climbed. I passed on some for less than $200 complete a year or two ago--who thought they'd get into trouble and stop production? Who thought things would go crazy after the election?

Oh well, next time...
 

SpaceFrank

New member
I'm also a big Ruger fan, and my Mini 14 would be my primary SHTF utensil even if I had an AR, but that still wouldn't stop me from building an AR if I had the money!
 

Mes0hemi

New member
In your diatribe you said there are millions and millions of AR fans out there. If there are that many fans then that should tell you something. If the platform didn't work then there wouldn't be that many fans.


You said if you hit someone with the buttstock it would fall off. First of all the buttstock won't fall off even if it's broken all the way around the stock. I can cut one in two and it will still stay on. I challenge anyone to hit a solid object with the buttstock and have it fall off. You may crack the stock but it won't fall off. The outside of the stock encases a very dense foam that will hold up to a lot of abuse. You stated it would render the M16 inoperable because the buffer spring is housed in the stock. The buffer spring is housed in the buffer tube not the stock. You don't even need a buttstock to operate the rifle. Bottom line is you hit someone with a butt strike and they are going down and the firearm will not fall apart.

I call BS on everything you said. I'm talking from experience not rumors and innuendo.
+1, I agree 100%. At Paris Island we did butt strokes to the head of a dummy against a tree while running full speed! If that didn't break it, I don't know what will. I have even seen a few run over by a 7 ton, pick it up, Knock the dirt off and start firing with no problems!
 
Colt does hold the military M-16 contract, however, some parts are contracted out. Stocks are made by various companies and sometimes hold their emblem. This has resulted in the false notion that other companies are making the M-16. This is also how the rumor got started that Mattel Toy company was making M-16's because their emblem was seen on stocks and grips that were made by them. While they started out with a bad rep for reliability the M-16/ AR-15 has come a long way since Vietnam. It now serves well in many different zones from deserts to jungles.
 

oldvet53

New member
In your diatribe you said there are millions and millions of AR fans out there. If there are that many fans then that should tell you something. If the platform didn't work then there wouldn't be that many fans.

If you fired in basic training in 83 you either fired a Colt or an Armalite M-16. IH never made an M-16 for the military or civilian use.

You stated you couldn't fire over 3 rounds at a time. If that was the case it sounds like you had a bad magazine. Failure to fire problems usually because of a bent feed lip on a training magazine that had been dropped too many times. I've trashed many magazines because of this. Yes the M-16 will become a little sluggish after a few thousand rounds but a squirt of CLP will take care of it for a while. About the time you were in basic we tried to see if we could melt a barrel on an M-16. We loaded couple thousand rounds in 30 rd mags. We fired them off as fast as we could on full auto. We had the barrel almost white hot. Other than a few FF's because of a bad mag and a few cook-offs it worked fine until it got too hot to hold. The hand guard didn't melt and didn't break. When it cooled off we gaged the barrel and it still met embarkation minimums and headspaced within tolerance.

You said if you hit someone with the buttstock it would fall off. First of all the buttstock won't fall off even if it's broken all the way around the stock. I can cut one in two and it will still stay on. I challenge anyone to hit a solid object with the buttstock and have it fall off. You may crack the stock but it won't fall off. The outside of the stock encases a very dense foam that will hold up to a lot of abuse. You stated it would render the M16 inoperable because the buffer spring is housed in the stock. The buffer spring is housed in the buffer tube not the stock. You don't even need a buttstock to operate the rifle. Bottom line is you hit someone with a butt strike and they are going down and the firearm will not fall apart.

I call BS on everything you said. I'm talking from experience not rumors and innuendo.

If the SHTF I'm grabbing one of my AR's. I have several M1 Garands and a couple M1A's but the AR platform will be my choice. Light weight and the 5.56 is a devastating round. A double tap will drop anyone.
amen to the above post,13 yrs. in the army have but stoked several people no problem. if your scared,holler scared! and give them a barrel thump!!!:biggrin:
 

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