BUG eccesive force


burchesss

New member
Alot has been said about ammo choice and not wanting to look like a vigilanty buy carring to large calliber, or using handloads wouldent a back up gun look as bad to a jury? the public usualy does not understand our need to carry one gun, how could you defend two? I am not takeing sides just curious do any of you know of cases where someone leagaly defended themselves with a BUG in thir posestion?
 

dancingwolf

New member
I know of no such case, but I ALWAYS carry a BUG, because stuff happens and I'm not about to bet my life on one firearm.

As far as caliber goes, much has been said about this, but my opinion is as long as I'm not defending myself with a RPG, there's not much to worry about.

By the way, my ammo choices are 45acp for my main gun and .38+P for my BUG. I feel neither under-gunned nor concerned about being taken to task by a prosecuter due to caliber/weapon choice.
 
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tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
I know of no such case, but I ALWAYS carry a BUG, because s--t happens and I'm not about to bet my life on one firearm.

As far as caliber goes, much has been said about this, but my opinion is as long as I'm not defending myself with a RPG, there's not much to worry about.

By the way, my ammo choices are 45acp for my main gun and .38+P for my BUG. I feel neither under-gunned nor concerned about being taken to task by a prosecuter due to caliber/weapon choice.

+1, Dancingwolf. Anyway, what does RPG stand for?
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
No case that I know of...

There are some people who carry two firearms rather than a reload. That is their choice. The only time it may be an issue is if someone had a firearm in each hand. I don't know of anyone who can effectively shoot a handgun in each hand simultaneously. When I travel someplace unknown to me, I have carried anywhere from two to four. When I travel, I bring at least three. You can't go down to the corner Hertz Rent-A-Gun and rent a handgun if yours is lost or arrives obviously broken.

I don't view carrying multiple firearms any different than carrying extra magazines, speedloaders or speedstrips. It's a matter of personal preference. I have also carried at least one reload for each firearm I have on me.
 
Only place I know of were I cannot carry a BUG is in NM. If I'm allowed to carry anywhere else, I'm carrying 1 primary and at least 1 BUG. If LEO had a need for a BUG, so do I as a responsible armed citizen. Things happen, and Mr. Murphy often appears when least expected.

I strongly recommend carrying a BUG except in NM. When selecting a BUG, keep in mind that you should have ammo for the BUG as well as your primary.



gf
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
Only place I know of were I cannot carry a BUG is in NM. If I'm allowed to carry anywhere else, I'm carrying 1 primary and at least 1 BUG. If LEO had a need for a BUG, so do I as a responsible armed citizen. Things happen, and Mr. Murphy often appears when least expected.

I strongly recommend carrying a BUG except in NM. When selecting a BUG, keep in mind that you should have ammo for the BUG as well as your primary.



gf

That's not exactly true. In New Mexico, you only allowed to carry one concealed gun at a time. You could conceivably carry one openly and carry a BUG concealed and not be breaking the law.
 

HK4U

New member
I am not really to worried about what other people think. As long as there is no law against it carry as many as you want. I more often than not carry two guns. I am more concerned about surviving than pleasing others.
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
I agree with HK4U. Too often on this site, open carry is not discussed, when in fact it is just as viable a way to carry as carrying concealed is. To hell with political correctness; as long as people are exercising their rights responsibly, who cares if some are offended; there is no constitutional guarantee against getting offended.
 

BikerRN

New member
If someone is involved in a "Use of Deadly Force" the fact that they carried a BUG will be an issue. So will the fact that they carried one gun, let alone two or three.

I routinely carry three guns off duty, with spare ammo. I can "justify" why I carry what I do and will be able to "articulate" those reasons to an Investigator, D.A., or a jury. I'm not to worried about it because I have my reasons.

Biker
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
If someone is involved in a "Use of Deadly Force" the fact that they carried a BUG will be an issue. So will the fact that they carried one gun, let alone two or three.

I routinely carry three guns off duty, with spare ammo. I can "justify" why I carry what I do and will be able to "articulate" those reasons to an Investigator, D.A., or a jury. I'm not to worried about it because I have my reasons.

Biker

Try telling that to netentity.
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
Try telling that to netentity.
Actually I am neutral on BikerRN's assertion of the number of firearms affecting the criminal and civil actions that may be brought up against you in court. It could go either way depending on the jurisdiction. I can see how it would be an issue in the bizarro universe States such as HI or NC. In jurisdictions where it would possibly be an issue it would also be an issue if you carried extra ammunition. The prosecution or plaintiff's counsel would say you're looking to get into a fire fight which would be the same argument against carrying multiple firearms. I also do the so called taboo of carrying compact firearms but using full sized magazines for reloads (i.e. P-12.45 is loaded with the factory 12 round magazines, reloads are the P-14 14 round magazines or using S&W 59 series magazines in a Kel-Tec P-11 for reloads). P-14.45 magazines are no more difficult to conceal for me than P-12.45 magazines same for S&W 59 magazines over Kel-Tec 10 round magazines so I might as well carry them. Reasoning being is simple, I don't know if I will ever need those extra few rounds so I might as well have them. Statistically self defense acts involve only one other subject.

The vehicle I bought last November I purposely specified that it have optional side airbags in addition to the factory front airbags. Does it mean that I plan on getting involved in an accident? No, it means I want optimal chance of surviving an accident with minimal injuries. I can't control what other drivers do any more than I can control the weather or a criminal who has decided to pick me as their next possible mark. However I can have additional safety equipment installed to mitigate that risk.

I have always said that if you are involved in a homicide investigation your life will be turned upside down probably even more so than running for President until the case is dismissed or the grand jury returns no bill or if your case goes to trial the jury returns not guilty. So yes, how many firearms you were carrying along with how much extra ammunition will be an issue as it is a factor of the case. As for how much will be up to the investigating LEO, the DA's office, judge and jury. If they don't bring it up, your defense counsel will not have to address it in court.

I don't see it as a major issue in most shall issue States. The only state that has a statutory restriction on the number of concealed firearms you can carry is NM. All other States you can carry as many as you can effectively conceal. However, it is common knowledge that you can only use them one at a time. Handling two firearms such as in many movies or video games is an urban legend.

There is one fairly well known AZ instructor that carries a pair of S&W J frames, one behind each hip. He carries that in lieu of speedloaders or speedstrips.

What I would be interested in hearing is BikerRN's reasoning on why it may be an issue and how he would justify his actions to the investigating LEOs, DA and jury. I don't see it as a major issue as no one up till now to my knowledge has ever commented on it ever being an issue.
 

MP3Mogul

New member
Here's a new one:

My gun dealer told me he "ALWAYS" carries hand-loads.... and as he states "lethal ones"

I asked him what would happen if he shot someone with them and the attorney general came after him. He said he would say "I always load my own "light power" bullets because I think that over-the-counter ammunition causes too much damage to the human body, and I don't want to harm anyone"

Good answer!
 
Here's a new one:

My gun dealer told me he "ALWAYS" carries hand-loads.... and as he states "lethal ones"

I asked him what would happen if he shot someone with them and the attorney general came after him. He said he would say "I always load my own "light power" bullets because I think that over-the-counter ammunition causes too much damage to the human body, and I don't want to harm anyone"

Good answer!

"Good Answer" :confused: I say far from it. He describes the handloaded ammo as "lethal", yet tells you later that he would state "I don't want to harm anyone" :eek: Is this guy missing something upstairs?

Note how you quoted him as saying "light powder bullets". Modern firearms use CARTRIDGES a "bullet" is one of four components that make up the modern CARTRIDGE.

i'd stay away from gun dealers like this one. JMHO



gf
 

gestu1

New member
I may sound stupid but, out of the box ammo seems to make more sense to me. I carry a .357 magnum loaded with hollow points. The box is maked Personal Protection. I feel if i had to explain myself, the fact that I chose ammo for that specific purpose might help in court.
 

KimberRB

New member
As far as bugs go unless the law has changed you can only carry one gun at a time in Ohio. Now for ammo I ask the LEOs here what they use and that is what I use. If its good for them its good for me. JMO
 
As far as bugs go unless the law has changed you can only carry one gun at a time in Ohio. Now for ammo I ask the LEOs here what they use and that is what I use. If its good for them its good for me. JMO


Great point KimberRB. As I have been saying, I'll carry a BUG when I'm LEGALLY able to do so. There are various reasons for carrying a BUG, first and foremost is personal safety. If my primary goes bad, I'll have a back up. Another scenario would be if I were to be out with a group of friends who were properly trained to handle firearms, but for whatever reason did not have a CC license. If some BG were to pick us as victims, I would be able to hand the BUG off to a friend who can assist in taking care of the situation.

Another great point about ammo. It would be very bad strategy for a prosecutor to argue that the ammo you are using is "bad" if the local LEO are using the same ammo.



gf
 

toreskha

Titles are un-American.
"Good Answer" :confused: I say far from it. He describes the handloaded ammo as "lethal", yet tells you later that he would state "I don't want to harm anyone" :eek: Is this guy missing something upstairs?

Note how you quoted him as saying "light powder bullets". Modern firearms use CARTRIDGES a "bullet" is one of four components that make up the modern CARTRIDGE.

i'd stay away from gun dealers like this one. JMHO



gf
I'm 98% sure that the gun dealer was describing a sarcastic, somewhat tongue-in-cheek answer he would give to a DA.
 

HowardCohodas

New member
Alot has been said about ammo choice and not wanting to look like a vigilanty buy carring to large calliber, or using handloads wouldent a back up gun look as bad to a jury? the public usualy does not understand our need to carry one gun, how could you defend two? I am not takeing sides just curious do any of you know of cases where someone leagaly defended themselves with a BUG in thir posestion?

The BUG vs. no BUG argument reminds me of the FMJ vs. HP argument. There are defensible arguments to be made for carrying a BUG as there are for HP that deal with safety rather than aggressiveness. The trick is finding an attorney with enough technical competence to understand the issues and enough ability to cogently and persuasively present the argument to the attorney general or in the worst cast to a jury.
 

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