Post Office


t11spanner

Dispatcher Extraordinaire
I read somewhere that depending on your state, the post office is okay for carry.

For the life of me, I cannot find the information.

Any thoughts from the group?
 

calmp9

New member
I read somewhere that depending on your state, the post office is okay for carry.

For the life of me, I cannot find the information.

Any thoughts from the group?

It's been awhile since we last communicated. I hope your new job is going well.

Regarding your post, I don't that's a true statement. The US Post Office is a Federal building and CC is not legal.
 
ALL US post office's are NO CARRY ZONES!! Carry in one of them and you are not a LEO of some kind and it's do not pass go. Go right to jail.. There are also Huge signs on all the doors that say no weapons of any kind (other then pocket knifes i think).
 

mtndwell

New member
Can yoiu provide info on that one. At least in the State of Nevada, NRS 202.36736 States the following:

NRS 202.3673 Permittee authorized to carry concealed firearm while on premises of public building; exceptions; penalty.

1. Except as otherwise provided in subsections 2 and 3, a permittee may carry a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of any public building.

2. A permittee shall not carry a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of a public building that is located on the property of a public airport.

3. A permittee shall not carry a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of:

(a) A public building that is located on the property of a public school or a child care facility or the property of the Nevada System of Higher Education, unless the permittee has obtained written permission to carry a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subparagraph (3) of paragraph (a) of subsection 3 of NRS 202.265.

(b) A public building that has a metal detector at each public entrance or a sign posted at each public entrance indicating that no firearms are allowed in the building, unless the permittee is not prohibited from carrying a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of the public building pursuant to subsection 4.

4. The provisions of paragraph (b) of subsection 3 do not prohibit:

(a) A permittee who is a judge from carrying a concealed firearm in the courthouse or courtroom in which he presides or from authorizing a permittee to carry a concealed firearm while in the courtroom of the judge and while traveling to and from the courtroom of the judge.

(b) A permittee who is a prosecuting attorney of an agency or political subdivision of the United States or of this State from carrying a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of a public building.

(c) A permittee who is employed in the public building from carrying a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of the public building.

(d) A permittee from carrying a concealed firearm while he is on the premises of the public building if the permittee has received written permission from the person in control of the public building to carry a concealed firearm while the permittee is on the premises of the public building.

5. A person who violates subsection 2 or 3 is guilty of a misdemeanor.

6. As used in this section:

(a) “Child care facility” has the meaning ascribed to it in paragraph (a) of subsection 5 of NRS 202.265.

(b) “Public building” means any building or office space occupied by:

(1) Any component of the Nevada System of Higher Education and used for any purpose related to the System; or

(2) The Federal Government, the State of Nevada or any county, city, school district or other political subdivision of the State of Nevada and used for any public purpose.

Ê If only part of the building is occupied by an entity described in this subsection, the term means only that portion of the building which is so occupied.

(Added to NRS by 1995, 2725; A 1997, 63; 1999, 2767; 2007, 1914)

Therefore, if they don't have a metal dector or a sign prohibiting firearms, you should be OK. At least that is how the NRS reads. The link to the actual NRS is here: NRS: CHAPTER 202 - CRIMES AGAINST PUBLIC HEALTH AND SAFETY

Not sure if there is a federal regulation, but I can't see how it will invalidate the State Law (but I am glad to say, I am no lawyer).

Hope this helps.
 

CA CCWInstructor

New member
Federal law is handled in federal court. State law is handled in state court. I was told by a federal prosecutor that you will be arrested by a federal officer, tried in federal court for breaking a federal law.

This has come up before. The state could petition the federal court and request this case be moved to a state court. The Feds will fight it though.

I'm not a lawyer either, I just do a lot of expert testimony in state and federal court. I really wouldn't want to be the test case to find out. By the same token, concealed carrying , means concealed. YMMV . . .
 

mtndwell

New member
CA CCWInsturctor - Do you have any links to the federal law that prohibits this? As I carry every day, in any location I can, I would be interested to know. I don't want to be the test case either, but I would like to be able to identify the law in any case. As they specifically include Federal Buildings in the definition of pubilic locations allowed by Nevada law, I would think it would have been addressed somewhere (or alligned to federal law). I don't think they would have passed the law and not recieved some type of legal opinion on the issue. Any info you have would be helpful. I will be doing a bit more research and will post if I find anything contrary.
 

tattedupboy

Thank God I'm alive!
I've seen the sign that says that, except for official purposes, carrying in post offices is against the law. However, as far as I know, "official purposes" is not defined, so I'm not sure if CC for personal defense counts.
 

t11spanner

Dispatcher Extraordinaire
ALL US post office's are NO CARRY ZONES!! Carry in one of them and you are not a LEO of some kind and it's do not pass go. Go right to jail.. There are also Huge signs on all the doors that say no weapons of any kind (other then pocket knifes i think).

No signs in the Winnemucca Post Office, that is why I asked, plus I remember reading something about and I could not remember......

Thanks for all the responses......
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
Here is a good legal analysis of USPS CCW by a licensed attorney.

State law does not enter into it as it appears to be illegal at the federal level. Best way to deal with USPS carry is to conduct your business outside of the post office. I have rented the same box at a UPS Store (formerly Mailboxes Etc) for over five years plus I conduct my USPS business off USPS property. I buy money orders at Walmart when needed, they're less expensive there anyway.
 

n0vnm

New member
USC 18 Sec 930

-CITE-
18 USC Sec. 930 01/03/2007

-EXPCITE-
TITLE 18 - CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE
PART I - CRIMES
CHAPTER 44 - FIREARMS

-HEAD-
Sec. 930. Possession of firearms and dangerous weapons in Federal
facilities

-STATUTE-
(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly
possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous
weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility),
or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned
not more than 1 year, or both.
(b) Whoever, with intent that a firearm or other dangerous weapon
be used in the commission of a crime, knowingly possesses or causes
to be present such firearm or dangerous weapon in a Federal
facility, or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or
imprisoned not more than 5 years, or both.
(c) A person who kills any person in the course of a violation of
subsection (a) or (b), or in the course of an attack on a Federal
facility involving the use of a firearm or other dangerous weapon,
or attempts or conspires to do such an act, shall be punished as
provided in sections 1111, 1112, 1113, and 1117.
(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to -
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer,
agent, or employee of the United States, a State, or a political
subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or
prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a
Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such
possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons
in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful
purposes.
 
Same question came up on another forum. Here's what I posted.


gf


I spoke with a USPS Inspector contact of mine (The USPS personnel that carry guns.), and he said that it would be wise to secure your firearm in your vehicle. Another item that folks commonly overlook when entering a post office are blades over 2" in length. He advised that I secure my CC firearm in my vehicle, this would be acceptable as it's not "on my person". Though the law does cover "on government property", he said that that's basically to "cover their 6". The only time he's seen folks charged with having a firearm secured in their vehicle while it's in the parking lot is when there were accomplices waiting in the vehicle.

Basically, if you make a "reasonable" effort to not violate the Federal Laws while on Federal property, they won't go looking for stuff to nail you with and won't bust your chops.
 

mtndwell

New member
Differing Legal Opinion On Postal Carry

Same question came up on another forum. Here's what I posted.


gf

Glock Fan,

Just some food for thought, I found this on NortheastShooters.com. This was information from MA, but as the law is federal, it should be relevant in Nevada as well. I wish we could get a test case some where to test the law (not me of course:no:). It would sure clear things up. This is what they had to say, directly from the post (and makes a lot of sense):

Dear Fellow NES Members and Guests:

First off - sorry for the length of this post!

I found the following excerpt on pages 380 and 381 of the Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law, published by Chief Ron Glidden and Atty. John Collins. This publication is used to train police officers in MA at the State Police Academy. I'm providing this information in order to clear up some confusion on the Post Office carry discussion. I contacted Atty Collins who gave me permission to post this information. Hope you find it useful. P.S. I've added the link to purchase the CD version for $41.50 directly from the Municipal Police Institute. No, I don't get any commissions on sales!!! Thanks to all of you members and users (especially Derek and the moderators) for making this such a useful and informative site. - Best regards - Randy B.

P.S.S. - For all the non-members who read this great site - please spend a small amount of money and join NES to support a very worthwhile cause!

Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law 11th Edition

Concealed Carry in the Post Office

18 U.S.C. §930

There is much public confusion on the legality of carrying a concealed firearm in a post office. The confusion is based in part on posters typically observed at federal buildings citing 18 U.S.C. § 930. Unfortunately, the posters do not mention the exception to the law that applies to those private citizens who lawfully carry handguns.

18 U.S.C. §930 Possession of Firearms and Dangerous Weapons in Federal Facilities

(a) Except as provided in subsection (d), whoever knowingly possesses or causes to be present a firearm or other dangerous weapon in a Federal facility (other than a Federal court facility), or attempts to do so, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 1 year, or both.

(d) Subsection (a) shall not apply to –
(1) the lawful performance of official duties by an officer, agent, or employee of the United
States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof, who is authorized by law to engage in or
supervise the prevention, detection, investigation, or prosecution of any violation of law;
(2) the possession of a firearm or other dangerous weapon by a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if such possession is authorized by law; or
(3) the lawful carrying of firearms or other dangerous weapons in a Federal facility incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.

For non-law enforcement personnel in Massachusetts, in order to fall within the exception to the law, two conditions have to be met. First, one has to be engaged in the “lawful carrying of firearms.” This means you cannot be a “prohibited person” such as a convicted felon, a fugitive from justice, or fall within any of the other categories that would prohibit one from lawfully purchasing or owning a firearm under federal law.

It also means that it must be legal for you to carry the firearm under any applicable federal, state, and local laws. For example your license to carry is restricted to target and hunting, you would not be allowed to carry in a post office on the federal section. The second condition that has to be met for one to fall within the exception to the ban on carrying a firearm in a federal facility is that one must be carrying in the facility “incident to hunting or other lawful purposes.” One cannot be in the facility with intent to commit a crime, or while committing a crime, and fall within the exception.

A simple test of whether one may legally carry in a post office could involve answering four questions:
1. Is it illegal for me to carry a handgun on the street outside the post office?
2. Is there a state or local law prohibiting carry in a post office?
3. Am I violating the terms of my LTC by carrying inside a post office?
4. Am I going to commit a crime or engage in some unlawful activity once inside the facility?

If one answers “no” to all four questions, it seems that one falls within the exception to the federal ban on carrying in a federal facility. The answer to the first three questions seeks to resolve whether one is engaged in the “lawful carrying” of a firearm. The answer to the final question seeks to resolve whether one is carrying “incident to … lawful purposes.”

© 2006 380

Law Enforcement Guide to Firearms Law 11th Edition

It is important to note that the term “Federal facility” does not include a federal court facility. Even with a valid concealed weapon or handgun license, it is a federal offense to bring a firearm into a federal court facility. Under this statue, the only persons who may lawfully carry in a federal court facility are federal, state, or local law enforcement officers on official duty, or a Federal official or a member of the Armed Forces if authorized to possess the firearm.

Addendum

The Code of Federal Regulations contains the following regulation (excerpted in pertinent part; full text from link):

39 C.F.R. 232.1 Conduct on Postal Property:
(l) Weapons and explosives. No person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes.

However, looking further down the regulation, we see the following: (p) Penalties and other law.
(2) Whoever shall be found guilty of violating the rules and regulations in this section while on property
under the charge and control of the Postal Service is subject to fine of not more than $50 or imprisonment
of not more than 30 days, or both. Nothing contained in these rules and regulations shall be construed
to abrogate any other Federal laws or regulations of any State and local laws and regulations
applicable to any area in which the property is situated.
Regulations in the CFR have to be based on laws in the United States Code, must be consistent with them, and cannot supercede them. Section (p)(2) of the 39 CFR 232.1 recognizes this fact. That is, the CFR cannot abrogate applicable Federal law.

In so far as firearms are concerned, 18 U.S.C. § 930 (a) is essentially the same as 39 CFR 232.1 (l), except that the regulations do not contain the exception for lawful concealed carry contained in 18 U.S.C. § 930 (d) (3). But by its own terms, the regulations do not override the United States Code ("Federal law"), which does allows carrying a firearm in federal facility.

In other words, the CFR cannot trump the U.S.C., and the U.S.C. allows lawful concealed carry in a federal facility.


© 2006 381
 

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