So what would you do?


KimberPB

New member
I was watching one of those amazing shocking video shows last night and one of the scenarios had me thinking. So I figured I’d share and see what you would do in this situation.

The scenario happened in a pizza shop in, I believe, Akron Ohio. There are 6 to 8 people waiting in line when this woman walks in. She cuts in line and one of the customer say something about it to the person he’s talking to on the phone. Well, she blows up yelling at him and spits in the owner face. She leaves long enough to get her 6’ 4’’, if I remember right, 300 pound boyfriend. They return to the shop were she start poking the guy on the cell phone in the face. He gets pissed slams his phone down. This is when the boyfriend sucker punches him and just starts pummeling him. Not once did the guy try to block anything (sucker punch rocked him good!) or return the blow. It was sad that no one in the shop stepped up to help this guy. I mean 3 or 4 of the other men could have ended this quickly.

I know state law would play into your action but say your state has a right to defend yourself or others from great bodily harm or death. So what do you do?? I mean the guy wasn’t armed but the other poor guy sustained a broken eye socket among other injuries.
 

skipjack_1st

New member
That's a tough one. You don't want to be an instigator, (and there are juries out there that would make you out to be one). On the other hand, we shouldn't be expected to let people walk all over us. I think once the punch flew, self defense would be in order. Amazing that no else in line attempted to intervene. Sad society in which we live.
 

Danno

New member
I saw that same show - it was messed up! Hard to believe that nobody in that shop would help... I'm a newb at ccw, so I'm curious as to the best way to handle this type of situaiton as well...
 

robiewan

New member
What would you do?

This is tough, unfortunately scenarios of this nature are happening all over the country.
According to Utah law, we may use our weapon in the defense of self, property or others. I certainly wouldn't be able to go into this situation using my fists, or trying to separate this imbecile from the victim. The proper thing to do is yell to the proprietor to call the police & yell, to get the deranged perps attention, for him to cease and desist or you will have to shoot. While at the same time pulling your weapon from as safe a distance as possible. Then tell the proprietor that you have a legal ccw and to let the police know this as you will have the perp at gun point when they arrive.
When police arrive, obey orders and show id when requested. Then just be a good witness. After all, we have the right to do this in the state as well as the right to make citizens arrests and detain for the police.
If the perp kept attacking then the correct thing to do is fire--this is in self defense of another and is legal. Just be prepared for any legalities that may be brought up and know your state laws.
 

Ektarr

Dedicated Infidel
(sucker punch rocked him good!)
Game over! Nothing the victim CAN do. The focus here should be on what he should have done before things escalated...like take at least evasive action when the boyfriend came through the door. IF the victim had been a CCW holder, this would have been the time to gain some distance and, as things got more heated, at least prepare to go to the hip. Also, the distance and elevated level of alertness should have had him call for a cop (to the store people) before it got out of hand.

At the same time, these two attackers could just be losers who need to be removed from society. I don't remember seeing it...were they apprehended? Any video/newslinks related to this?
 

KimberPB

New member
Great input so far guys.....

Youtube have to love it! Here is a link to see the altercation I mentioned:

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Oh and EKTARR I do believe they catch and charged both the man and woman. Suprise Suprise he was already a felon that had served jail time.
 

KimberPB

New member
Also let me add I was looking at this scenario more of what if I was at the store but not the one being assulted.
 

LVLouisCyphre

Obama is a mack daddy!
My two cents...

It is a questionable one.

Person A: Person who did the sucker punch.
Person B: Cell phone talker.

First of all you're dealing with the typical standard of use of lethal force. After the first punch was dealt there is an argument that B or a third party could have used lethal force under the premise of fearing great bodily injury. I would be surprised if B did not suffer serious bodily injury. If A did end up doing felony time for the incident then obviously there was serious bodily injury or possible death of B.

You're also dealing with an obvious size disparity between A and B. A being the much larger person.

What did B do wrong? He was on the cell phone in condition white. Second is conflict avoidance. We don't know what B said on the cell phone to A's female companion to set her off. By virtue of the fact I CCW as often as possible I make it a point to avoid trouble and be aware. Even in States with a stand your ground law with civil suit immunity such as FL I'm not going to have a Dirty Harry mindset. I don't want to be good friends with a homicide detective, CSI personnel and a DA. I also don't want to deal with the post traumatic stress associated with being involved in a SD act the required use of lethal force.

Several factors may influence your decision or make you more apt to use lethal force. If you're in a State with stand your ground or similar laws, you may be more apt and legally in the right for any SD act. Case and point, FL or MO. There's a high probability that if this incident were to have happened in FL or MO, A would have left in an ambulance, coroner's vehicle or been driven to a trauma unit by his female companion. OH is one of more liberal cesspool shall issue States which their laundry list of prohibited areas, I'd be less apt to use a firearm. Also if the pizza establishment serves alcohol for on premises consumption it is a prohibited area under OH law. In States like GA, NC and OH with a laundry list of prohibited areas, I avoid them. I will pass through them but that's about it.

The other question what if A committed battery against the owner or manager of the establishment? Yes, typically the castle doctrine is extended to the premises of a business. But keep in mind you're in OH which is a cesspool of a State to begin with.

Could the owner or authorized agent of the business get involved and intervened in B's behalf? Yes, it's their place. If someone is beating up a customer in my place of business, I would intervene as it is bad for business.

Would they have been justified? IMO looking at the video, yes. A showed obvious disregard of the life of B. While B was probably rude to A's female companion or said an offensive comment in regards to her rude behavior of cutting in line to whomever he was talking with on the phone that is not an excuse to beat the life out of him. IMO, using a firearm to stop A would have been justified. I would return no bill if I was on the grand jury or not guilty if a firearm was used to stop A and he kept on going after throwing the first punch.

It's a mindset or zen associated with self defense. It's like the late Pat Morita said as the Mr. Miyagi in one of the Karate Kid movies, "Best way to block punch is no be there." Same goes with being in involved in any type of situation, "Best way to avoid shooting or being shot is no be there."

The street rule of thumb with SD acts is this; never start it. The force used must be appropriate for the actions warranting use of any type of force. IMO, B did not start it or warrant the beating by being on his cell phone.
 

rmarcustrucker

New member
I can't even comment and be politically correct. But the x-con needs to be a con again, for life. Someone like that is prime "future murder of the year."
Danger of living in the inner cities. Akron is having troubles like you would not believe and Cleveland is, too.
 

Ektarr

Dedicated Infidel
And THAT, Ladies, Gentlemen and Liberals of all stripes, is why you carry a gun. All the guy wanted was a slice of pizza. Instead he was forced into a confrontation he didn't seek by a Neanderthal that he didn't know who had to get into his face.

Because she's special, I guess.

Well, after reviewing the tape...I'd'a shot his ass. 'Course, once you took it out, you probably would have had to.
 

chekisty

New member
when i tookmy utah ccw class i was told you should have less-than-lethal options so i would have used the pepper spray.
 
Finding answers to complicated questions

Wow that was a shocking video what a great discussion question. When i first applied to get my CCW permit i was 21 i remember my instructor saying something to the effect that i had to make a big decision based on the parameters of the law; when would i justify using my concealed firearm. It was the first time it really hit me and i realized deep down that i would presumably have to use my gun. luckily i have not been in a situation to do such yet but since then, everywhere i go i think about these kinds of situations and what i would do.

Utah law states that a person is permitted to use deadly force when that person reasonably beleives that the use of deadly force is to prevent serious bodily harm or death. In this case i beleive i would have no problem convincing 12 of my peers that this guy was using deadly force and i would be able to rationalize even an attack on my person.

in this case i would asses my target environment and present my gun and use a loud voice to command his attention. hoping of course that he would flee the scene. if he advanced toward me then in that case i would definately fire on him.

there are several things that people that come thru my classes don't realize. i am asked these types of questions several times during each session. i will generally ask severall followup questions to help people realize that there is more to a situation than the law alone:

a) there is a difference between what's legal and what is wise.
b) who is with me? family friends dependants? these presences will definately change my response
c) what is behind, in front of, and to the sides of the agressor?

it is so great that when we see these situations these questions are going thru our heads this will allow us who have chosen to carry to be able to inteligently, effectively, and lawfully handle the worst of situations.
 

Ektarr

Dedicated Infidel
I think we have to keep in mind what transpired here:

The victim had NO options! S U C K E R P U N C H E D! He was out of the fight the instant it started. If you place yourself in the shoes of the victim, you're 'dependent on the kindness of strangers'.

That leaves our "Good Samaritans." I believe an armed response to what was happening to this guy was perfectly in order.
 
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It looks like the guy on the cell phone contributed to the beat down. When the lady got up in his face he should have stepped outside. It appears that he got into it with the lady, then the big guy got into it with him. The body language of the big guy clearly showed that he was about to take a swing. Being that I would have been armed and in a pizza joint, I would have made an attempt to get out of the restaurant. If they persisted in preventing my exit and took a swing at me, then I would give them a verbal warning to back off. As a last resort I would have shot the guy after taking the initial hit.


gf
 

The Gunny

New member
Two words, situational awareness.

I am some what more prone to this due to my recent experiences here in Iraq however it behooves us to remain alert at all times. He was on his cell and we have no idea what he said that may have precipitated the event. I am not willing to go so far as to say he was asking for it but he could have offered an off color remark to whoever he was on the phone with. That being said once the situation got out of control with the woman he should have been in a heightened state of alert and never given the other guy a chance to sucker punch him. He should have seen that coming a mile away. At that point once the verbal altercation with the woman had ended he had to make a choice the classic fight or flight repsonse was definatly in order. Since he chose to remain we can infer he was prepared to fight it would appear he was not prepared to do either but he should have been.

Call me paranoid, call it PTSD or what ever you want but whenever I am in a unfamiliar crowded social situation I am always evaluating everyone near me. I am not going to let anyone slip under my radar if I can help it. If I decern a possible confrontation I will make the conscious decision whether or not I want to risk being in a fight. If I stay you can bet your boots I am prepared to fight.
 

PascalFleischman

New member
I'm the kind of guy that would say something directly to the woman, rather than snide comments behind her back. "Hey lady, you just passed everyone standing in line. Would you mind please waiting like the rest of us?" If then, in walks boyfriend, with a bone to pick, I step back as much as I can to diffuse things. Last option would then be off the table.

Some other guy makes a comment? You bet I'd have SAID something first. Warn the guy with 9-1-1 on the line.
 

DrLewall

Charter Member
The victim was obviously a "sheep"..totaly unaware of what was going to happen and did not take any actions to prevent it..this is what sheep do.

All of us here would have not done what the victim did, we would have taken some kind of action against it.
 

DrDavidM

New member
I truly do not know what I would have done in this situation. In TN the law does allow deadly force in a life threatening situation of another. I suppose I would have tried to distance myself, present my firearm, and try to deescalate the situation. However, that puts me in a dangerous position. The main thing I want to point out , you do not want to get into a fist fight while armed. If you do, you basically have lost control of your firearm.
 
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KimberPB

New member
Great comments guy! First off I think if the guy on the phone was one of us it probably would have played out a lot different. I think it’s safe to say when the woman got up in our face (or before that) we would have been looking for an exit, creating space, calling 911, or all of thee.

So here’s what went through my head when I saw this. Like many of you said we have no idea what was said by the guy on the phone. I think that is the number one factor that would decide what I’d did. If it was just a comment about some woman causing a scene and cutting in line I’d be more willing to step in. If I felt what he said purposely escalated the situation I’d most likely stay out of the way. After the first punch it looks like the guy actually tried to head for the exit but the woman goes that way also. Not sure if she actually blocks him from getting out but the boyfriend does grab phone guy and pull him back into the fight. I want to say at that point I’d say something get someone calling 911 and see if anyone looks like they are going to help. Hoping that now that boyfriend knows police are on the way he’ll take off. If not then it’s a hard call drawing and/or shooting someone unarmed, but pummeling someone, maybe risky. I want to say at that point I’d draw and do what was “right” but it’s really hard to say.

But like everyone says this is a hard one to call. Anytime you decided to step in and help another you take a big chance financially and with YOUR freedom. On the other hand it’s hard to set back and watch some scum bag pummel someone just because.
 

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