US soldier refuses to serve in "illegal war"


Cooter

Liberty or Death
Friday May 16, 2008

Matthis Chiroux is the kind of young American US military recruiters love.
"I was from a poor, white family from the south, and I did badly in school," the now 24-year-old told AFP.

"I was 'filet mignon' for recruiters. They started phoning me when I was in 10th grade," or around 16 years old, he added.

Chiroux joined the US army straight out of high school nearly six years ago, and worked his way up from private to sergeant.

He served in Afghanistan, Germany, Japan, and the Philippines and was due to be deployed next month in Iraq.

On Thursday, he refused to go, saying he considers Iraq an illegal war.

"I stand before you today with the strength and clarity and resolve to declare to the military, my government and the world that this soldier will not be deploying to Iraq," Chiroux said in the sun-filled rotunda of a congressional building in Washington.

"My decision is based on my desire to no longer continue violating my core values to support an illegal and unconstitutional occupation... I refuse to participate in the Iraq occupation," he said, as a dozen veterans of the five-year-old Iraq war looked on.


Full story here:
US soldier refuses to serve in 'illegal Iraq war'
 

HK4U

New member
Here is a question perhaps some of you can answer for me. In the last 50 years or so out of all the so called "wars" we have been in how many did we actually have congress vote to declare war. It seems our presidents both Republicans and Democrats always manage to skirt the constitution by having a "police action" or some such.
 

tcotariu

New member
I seem to recall Congress voting for the war in Iraq. I believe that makes it legal. To some it may not be “right” as the “rightness” of something can be subjective depending on a persons moral and ethical values, but that is different than being legal.
 

toreskha

Titles are un-American.
I'm so tired of hearing about the supposed "illegality" of this war. It's not illegal. What's a "legal" war, anyway? The entire concept is stupid. Calling it "immoral" is also nonapplicable, because morality really isn't part of the game plan in war. That's like talking about a healthy chili cookoff. War is amoral, and any overtones about liberation or morality are just motivational propaganda.

This war is badly conceived, non-strategic, a waste of time, money, resources and lives, and almost completely irrelevant to our goals, but it is neither illegal nor immoral. Contrary to what we've heard, democracies in the Mideast are neither feasible nor would they really have any positive impact on us. Would it make the oil any cheaper? No - democracies, although stable, tend to make things more expensive.
 

NDS

New member
That's Ok...Leavenworth has plenty for him to do!

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I was under the impression that Leavenworth was no longer employed. I thought these types are given some kind of 'other-than-honorable' discharge and let go.
 

Red Hat

New member
If they get sentenced to maximum security they go to The United States Disciplinary Barracks (USDB) at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Any court-martial conviction is a Felony and the sentence can vary. Leavenworth is alive and thriving...

U.S. Disciplinary Barracks
 

HK4U

New member
I remember the solder that refused to serve under the U.N or its command a few years back. He was court marshaled. He should have been given a medal.
 

NDS

New member
If they get sentenced to maximum security they go to The United States Disciplinary Barracks (USDB) at Fort Leavenworth, Kansas. Any court-martial conviction is a Felony and the sentence can vary. Leavenworth is alive and thriving...

U.S. Disciplinary Barracks


I see you began with "If" so I still wonder what the chances are the military will take this course rather than just divest the service of him. Interesting to see that Leavenworth still contains a military prison. As I said, the impression I've gotten recently is that discipline had changed and prison was a much less likely option.

Thanks for the link--as a lifelong civilian, the workings of the military can appear bewildering to me.
 
I had a "conscientious objector" in my flight when we deployed to Desert Storm. He seemed to think he could make the claim and stay in to perform other duties. Come to find out he was only in for the educational benefits and ended up being discharged. From what I understand, refusal to go is disobeying a lawful order and punishable under the U.C.M.J., you have to file conscientious status before hand. Maybe his new bunk buddies will explain that.
 

HK4U

New member
I had a "conscientious objector" in my flight when we deployed to Desert Storm. He seemed to think he could make the claim and stay in to perform other duties. Come to find out he was only in for the educational benefits and ended up being discharged. From what I understand, refusal to go is disobeying a lawful order and punishable under the U.C.M.J., you have to file conscientious status before hand. Maybe his new bunk buddies will explain that.


There are most likely a lot in the military that joined for the educational benfits. The reality is that there has been very few years of "real peace" over the last 100 years or so. There will always be a war, police action or something that we are involved in, sometimes for good reasons other times the reasons are dubious at best. If you don't want to be sent to fight somewhere, anywhere, you best not join the service Joining and thinking you can avoid "action" is living in a fairy tell world.
 

Red Hat

New member
I see you began with "If" so I still wonder what the chances are the military will take this course rather than just divest the service of him. Interesting to see that Leavenworth still contains a military prison. As I said, the impression I've gotten recently is that discipline had changed and prison was a much less likely option.

Thanks for the link--as a lifelong civilian, the workings of the military can appear bewildering to me.
I guarantee you that he will serve time. It may be in a Federal prison in his area if it's less than...If i remember correctly...7 years if more then he will go to Levenworth. Some Post and Bases have facilities that can house prisoners for a few years. The military takes a dim view on deserters, cowards and idiots like him. They will try to get every day in prison they can for him. Discipline is the only thing that holds a military together. If there was no consequence for their action then people would just quit and leave. Any way you look at it he just screwed up his life. A felony conviction and a Dishonorable Discharge will get you a long way today!
 

NDS

New member
Interesting thread. Thanks for the information; I am now better informed than I was before I read your posts.
 

toreskha

Titles are un-American.
The point of having a standing professional military is that they are constantly ready to engage in military activities whenever needed. I could see CO status as a valid consideration during a draft, when the government picks people randomly. However, if you *sign up* for the military, and then play the CO card...that's walking into a situation you know will be trouble, and then having angst over it.

Taxpayers should get their money back from him for the basic training. Also, maybe we should limit CO status to only being effective during a draft. If the military picks you, then you can claim they picked the wrong person. If you pick the military, then that's your problem.
 

FN1910

New member
I'm so tired of hearing about the supposed "illegality" of this war. It's not illegal. What's a "legal" war, anyway? The entire concept is stupid. Calling it "immoral" is also nonapplicable, because morality really isn't part of the game plan in war. That's like talking about a healthy chili cookoff. War is amoral, and any overtones about liberation or morality are just motivational propaganda.

This war is badly conceived, non-strategic, a waste of time, money, resources and lives, and almost completely irrelevant to our goals, but it is neither illegal nor immoral. Contrary to what we've heard, democracies in the Mideast are neither feasible nor would they really have any positive impact on us. Would it make the oil any cheaper? No - democracies, although stable, tend to make things more expensive.

+1

If we get to choose which "war" we support and which orders we have to follow then we are doomed.Not trying to justify this war, support it or anything else other than if you don't follow orders you better have a good reason and be prepared for the reprecussions.
 
There are most likely a lot in the military that joined for the educational benfits. The reality is that there has been very few years of "real peace" over the last 100 years or so. There will always be a war, police action or something that we are involved in, sometimes for good reasons other times the reasons are dubious at best. If you don't want to be sent to fight somewhere, anywhere, you best not join the service Joining and thinking you can avoid "action" is living in a fairy tell world.

Couldn't agree more. That's why, as Flight Chief at the time, I recommended an Article 15 (Non-Judicial Punishment) and discharge under less than honorable. They simply discharged him, no reduction in grade and basically an honorable discharge.
 

HK4U

New member
was the soldie who refused o serve under the flag of The UN.

That's the one. I could not remember his name. I do not blame him for not serving under the U.N. Unfortunatly if you are in the military today that might be a reality. Something to think about if your ae considering joining.
 

Teufel

New member
I really do hate people like him.

I had one with me in my first deployment. It wasn't a fun time for him once he made it known of course.

The folks that joined strictly for education and with no desire to actually fight the fight they get trained for deserve nothing.
 

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