Use of deadly force/common sense


festus

God Bless Our Troops!!!
Let's see what we know about the use of deadly force in general...
Not false bravado or better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...

1. Deadly force is only to be used to protect your life, the life of a family member or other innocent person. To prevent a forceable felony such as murder, rape or kidnapping if you honestly and truly believe that the outcome is going to end with someone being killed by the perp. You want the situation to stop.
It is a judgement call only you can make so choose wisely.
2. Deadly force is best used when confronted with a clear threat. Not when you think the BG might have a weapon, but you KNOW he does. You only ever want the situation to STOP.
3. The use of deadly force (Killing another human) will haunt your dreams forever. There is no shaking the what if factor. You only ever wanted the situation to stop.
4. If the criminal is departing after you catch him/her breaking into your car/house/boat/shed they are not a threat PERIOD
Shooting some poor fool in the back is not a good thing; never has been, never will be!
5. Deadly force can quickly be turned to premeditated homicide if you have ever had so much as a cross word with the deceased prior to the self defense action.
6. I bet you dollars to donuts that you will not want to stay in the same house that you shot and killed some crack head who pulled a knife/gun on you during a home invasion. (It is just human nature to not want to remain at the scene of something so grisly)
7. When giving your statement to the police, all you will ever say is"I want my lawyer", nothing more. Anything you say can and will be used against you. It is really hard to turn "I want my lawyer" into "he had it coming" or "I was justified in killing him". The letters don't even come close to matching. Keep it simple with "I want my lawyer." This will help protect you in the long run. DO NOT EXPAND ON THE FACTS. Let your lawyer decide what will help you and what will hurt you.
 

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W

wolfhunter

Guest
Once again, you've posted a well written, clear, and wise piece of advice. Thank you.
 

Stratus41298

New member
Well put. I would also add something about feeling guilty in there. A perfectly normal reaction to depriving another of their life.
 

Piece Corps

New member
The best part being, shut up and let your lawyer do the talking. Even in a clear-cut case of self-defense, don't say anything.
 

Stratus41298

New member
I would imagine it's hard to do sometimes.

A story my uncle told me once that happened while he was working (he's an EMT):

My uncle responded to an assault call. When he got there he saw three people involved that the police were talking to. One of the guys had blood all over his face clearly from being punched in the nose and the other two were a girl/guy couple. While my uncle was checking the "victim" out, my uncle heard the "suspect" giving his side of the story. The man basically said, "this guy grabbed my girlfriend's ass and I punched him for it."

To which the officer replied, "Nooo...... Your significant other was sexually harrassed by this man and you were merely detaining him using a reasonable amount of force until the police arrived." The man nodded and smiled.

My uncle decided the so-called victim was fine and could wait for medical attention until after he was booked. :)

Such a good story I think i'll post it in the LEO section too!
 

speedracer815

New member
Keep in mind that "I want my lawyer" vs. a short description such as "He came at me, I was in fear for my life. I just wanted him to stop." May be the difference between being arrested and spending a night in jail, or not.

While it's wise not to say too much, saying too little can cause you problems too.
 

JST44Mag

New member
I would say that you are missing one element regarding self defense. Part of self defense is to also stop great bodily harm, not just death. That is in most statutes for self defense.

Even as bass ackwards as IL is, this is the law at this moment:

(720 ILCS 5/7 1) (from Ch. 38, par. 7 1)
Sec. 7 1. Use of force in defense of person.
(a) A person is justified in the use of force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or another against such other's imminent use of unlawful force. However, he is justified in the use of force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or another, or the commission of a forcible felony.

So IL even goes as far as saying a forcible felony is reason to use force against another. A forcible felony is described as:

In Illinois, a forcible felony is defined as "treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual." 720 ILCS 5/2-8 (West 2000).
• Treason
• First degree murder
• Second degree murder
• Predatory criminal sexual assault of a child
• Aggravated criminal sexual assault
• Criminal sexual assault
• Robbery
• Burglary
• Residential burglary
• Aggravated Arson
• Arson
• Aggravated kidnapping
• Kidnapping
• Aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement
• And any other felony which involves the use of threat of physical force or violence against any individual



(720 ILCS 5/2 8) (from Ch. 38, par. 2 8)

Sec. 2 8. "Forcible felony". "Forcible felony" means treason, first degree murder, second degree murder, predatory criminal sexual assault of a child, aggravated criminal sexual assault, criminal sexual assault, robbery, burglary, residential burglary, aggravated arson, arson, aggravated kidnaping, kidnaping, aggravated battery resulting in great bodily harm or permanent disability or disfigurement and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.

(Source: P.A. 88 277; 89 428, eff. 12 13 95; 89 462, eff. 5 29 96.)

So I guess the best bet is to try to find out what the law is in the state or states you are in or planning on carrying in.

As far as the "treason" idea goes, it would seem to me that damn near any politician in this sorry state would be fair game. I personally would put King Richard, mayor of the state at the top of the list :biggrin:
 

JST44Mag

New member
7. When giving your statement to the police, all you will ever say is"I want my lawyer", nothing more. Anything you say can and will be used against you. It is really hard to turn "I want my lawyer" into "he had it coming" or "I was justified in killing him". The letters don't even come close to matching. Keep it simple with "I want my lawyer." This will help protect you in the long run. DO NOT EXPAND ON THE FACTS. Let your lawyer decide what will help you and what will hurt you.[/QUOTE]


I took a course offered by Massad Ayoob a few years back. If you don't know the name, he is an ex-LEO and does travel the country as an expert witness in LE and self defense cases.

His five point checklist:
1) Tell responding officers "I am the victim; he is the perpetrator."

2) Tell responding officers, "I will sign a complaint."

3) Point out pertinent evidence.

4) Point out any witnesses who saw what happened.

5) If there is any hint that you are a suspect, say "Officer, you will have my full cooperation after I have counsel here."

Now this is assuming that if you did actually shoot someone that you have the frame of mind to remember all this.

There has been a debate in another forum whether or not pictures of the scene would be a good idea. Again, that is assuming you remember to do that you or you have someone with you that can use a cell phone or digital camera.

I would like to recommend that anyone that carries at least investigate The Armed Citizen's Legal Defense Network. http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org

I have joined and believe the resources that are made available are priceless. I already have a working relationship with a local attorney that is joining the network so he has the resources of the network available for defense strategies.

I also checked into my homeowners insurance and I have coverage to cover the costs of legal representation available as long as I did not do something illegal. :biggrin:

I hope to never have to use any of this. Just like having a fire extinguisher or a firearm in the home ready for self defense, it is best to be prepared.

I just wanted to throw this out as food for thought.

My reply didn't show the link so here it is again: http://www.armedcitizensnetwork.org Hopefully this will work.
 
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Keep in mind that "I want my lawyer" vs. a short description such as "He came at me, I was in fear for my life. I just wanted him to stop." May be the difference between being arrested and spending a night in jail, or not.

While it's wise not to say too much, saying too little can cause you problems too.
Are you saying you should say a little piece of your story? He is whats wrong with that. Lets say after they look into the matter they come back and say you did not act with in the law you are under arrest for this or that. At trail they will take what little you did say and cut and paste it to meet their needs of making you look a cold blooded killer. The only part the court will hear out of every thing you said was. "I wanted Him Stopped". From that point on they will keep hammering that point home with the court. "you just wanted him stopped' even if that meant killing him ( and so on and so on) Your rights say 'Any thing you say can will be used against you in a court of law" They do not say any thing you say can and will help your case.
 

speedracer815

New member
What I'm saying is that if all you say is "I want my lawyer". you WILL be arrested, no if's and's or but's about it. The police on the scene will label you as uncooperative, they don't know why you shot this person, and so you will be taken into custody and most likely booked. You will talk to your lawyer in an interview room in the police station when he gets there.

There are plenty of cases where a simple statement of fact have kept the good guy out of jail. No arrest, no charges filed. I think this is the best possible outcome after the deadly encounter is over. The experts in the field that I have talked to, including LEO's and lawyers say you should give a SHORT, factual statement and then shut up.

If you're dead set on "I want my lawyer". be prepared for a trip to jail.
 

PennJersey.info

New member
What I'm saying is that if all you say is "I want my lawyer". you WILL be arrested, no if's and's or but's about it. The police on the scene will label you as uncooperative, they don't know why you shot this person, and so you will be taken into custody and most likely booked. You will talk to your lawyer in an interview room in the police station when he gets there.

There are plenty of cases where a simple statement of fact have kept the good guy out of jail. No arrest, no charges filed. I think this is the best possible outcome after the deadly encounter is over. The experts in the field that I have talked to, including LEO's and lawyers say you should give a SHORT, factual statement and then shut up.

If you're dead set on "I want my lawyer". be prepared for a trip to jail.
I don't agree 100% - There is a law school lecture floating around on why an innocent person should never talk to the police.

Henry
 
I don't agree 100% - There is a law school lecture floating around on why an innocent person should never talk to the police.

Henry
Thank you i was hoping someone would bring that set of video's up for this topic. They are great video's and show why you do not talk to police.
 
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I understand your compulsion to tell your side, BUT.....

What I'm saying is that if all you say is "I want my lawyer". you WILL be arrested, no if's and's or but's about it. The police on the scene will label you as uncooperative, they don't know why you shot this person, and so you will be taken into custody and most likely booked.

If you're dead set on "I want my lawyer". be prepared for a trip to jail.
What you don't seem to be getting, Speed, is that IF you shoot someone, you are going to jail. Now, the officers may not Mirandize you at that time. They will say that you are just coming to the station to make an official statement. However, anything that say will be used against you. They can decide to Mirandize (arrest you) at any time. The police officers are not the ones that decide if charges will be pressed. That is the decision of the District Attorney. There are some decent people there, but most of the DA's with whom I have worked are more concerned about prosecuting high profile cases than with true justice. Also, keep in mind that the police can and will lie to you to get information. It is legal, and there is no legal relief for any information you give (short of proof of torture, of course).

What I'm saying is that if all you say is "I want my lawyer". you WILL be arrested, no if's and's or but's about it.
If you shoot someone, you are going to jail, no if's, and, or buts about it. It doesn't matter what you say or don't say, you will not be making that movie, or date, or wherever you were headed. What you say, or more importantly what you don't say, will be the deciding factor on whether you spend several hours at the jailhouse, or spend several years in the big house.

The police on the scene will label you as uncooperative, they don't know why you shot this person, and so you will be taken into custody and most likely booked. You will talk to your lawyer in an interview room in the police station when he gets there.
What the police on the scene label you doesn't matter if it never goes to court. Keep your mouth shut until you can get your legal council on-scene, and chances are you will not give them anything with which to prosecute you. Remember, once that trigger is pulled, you are in an entirely new ball game. Also, no matter how smart you are, after being involved in a firefight, you can not depend on your faculties. Why do you think that police officers are not allowed to comment to anyone when they shoot? Do you think that they need to talk to the DA first? NO. The very first thing that they do is talk with the police union provided lawyer. If it is good enough for those law enforcement officers who have all kinds of legal relief, why wouldn't you take the same care when you have no relief against the law, save for that thin piece of plastic on which your CCw is printed?

There are plenty of cases where a simple statement of fact have kept the good guy out of jail.
Well, you show me one case where somone has killed another human being in self-defense and NOT been taken to jail, at least for questioning. I do not believe that you can. More importantly, I CAN show you many, many, many cases showing where "simple statements of facts" have PUT a "good guy" in jail. Remember, when dealing with lawyers, there is no such thing as simple, and there is certainly no such thing as "fact". Truth be told, often the one thing missing in our modern justice system is justice.

No arrest, no charges filed. I think this is the best possible outcome after the deadly encounter is over. The experts in the field that I have talked to, including LEO's and lawyers say you should give a SHORT, factual statement and then shut up.
You simply have it wrong here, Speed. Again, I understand the impulse to tell your side of what happened. The thing to remember is that once you have shot someone, all of the rules that apply to normal, everyday life are off. You are now, whether you choose to accept it or not, a murder suspect. I don't know what experts you have been talking to, but they are not giving you good advice. If you choose not to believe me or the others on this forum who are well versed in law and law enforcement as it relates to self defense law, then do yourself a HUGE favor: Find a good defense lawyer, give him or her their fee for a one hour consultation (now they are YOUR lawyer and must give you sound advice, as far as they know it), and ask all of these questions of them. It will be money extremely well spent in the case of a self defense shooting. If you will spend $800 on a handgun to defend your life, spend $200-$300 to protect your personal liberty.

The short list provided by JST44Mag is excellent; however, I am sure that he would agree that not saying a word without your lawyer present is far preferable to saying too much. Remember, the adrenal gland is still working, and adrenaline can kill you with your own lips. Memorize JST44Mags list, or simply clam up. Always keep at the very front of your cerebellum that it doesn't matter what those cops think; you are now in a battle against the DA. Do Not give them any advantage against you. Please don't take my word for it. Hire a knowledgeable lawyer and protect yourself.

:yes4:
 

Cavalry Doc

Cavalry Doc
Let's see what we know about the use of deadly force in general...
Not false bravado or better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6...


2. Deadly force is best used when confronted with a clear threat. Not when you think the BG might have a weapon, but you KNOW he does. You only ever want the situation to STOP.
If I think the BG has a weapon, he does until proven otherwise. A weapon is not always necessary to alow for the use of deadly force. Check your local laws carefully.

3. The use of deadly force (Killing another human) will haunt your dreams forever. There is no shaking the what if factor. You only ever wanted the situation to stop.
Not necessarily true. Some people can sleep just fine after killing someone. Now, that being said, the legal fees would likely be a royal pain in the backside.

4. If the criminal is departing after you catch him/her breaking into your car/house/boat/shed they are not a threat PERIOD
Shooting some poor fool in the back is not a good thing; never has been, never will be!
Some states allow for pursuit and the use of deadly force. Personally, I'd let insurance handle the problem whenever possible. There are very few things someone could have, or have done, that would have me chasing them.

5. Deadly force can quickly be turned to premeditated homicide if you have ever had so much as a cross word with the deceased prior to the self defense action.
Someone might argue that in court. It wouldn't enter into my decision making process. I'm not likely to cut a guy any breaks because he had been hostile in the past.

6. I bet you dollars to donuts that you will not want to stay in the same house that you shot and killed some crack head who pulled a knife/gun on you during a home invasion. (It is just human nature to not want to remain at the scene of something so grisly)
You're really hung up on this remorse thing. Not all people would react that way. The only reason I would leave, is if I expected his buddies to come around for some more fighting. Maneuver is an effective self defense strategy. Set the alarm, and let the Cops take them out while I'm soaking in the hot tub in the hotel.

7. When giving your statement to the police, all you will ever say is"I want my lawyer", nothing more. Anything you say can and will be used against you. It is really hard to turn "I want my lawyer" into "he had it coming" or "I was justified in killing him". The letters don't even come close to matching. Keep it simple with "I want my lawyer." This will help protect you in the long run. DO NOT EXPAND ON THE FACTS. Let your lawyer decide what will help you and what will hurt you.
At last, a point that we agree on. I'd add that "I'm the good guy, He's the bad guy, The gun is currently (insert location and status) and you will have my full cooperation once my lawyer arrives and I have had a chance to seek counsel."



The bottom line is that you should only shoot someone that you have to shoot. All of us should try our level best not to hurt anyone, unless there is no other reasonable choice. But if you have to do it, do it well.
 

festus

God Bless Our Troops!!!
I'm not really hung up on the remorse thing...

I'm not really hung up on the remorse thing...but it does help to have an understanding of how the human psyche works. I have seen death and It did not keep me from functioning, It did however bring about what is known as a SEE or significant emotional event. The military was really good about preparing us for what we might encounter, and subsequently what the after effects may be. I have a buddy that has nightmares to this day over things he saw in trashcanistan. He will never be OK and he knows it. But he's learning to deal with it.

My father's friend, shot and killed an intruder during a home invasion. He took those images of what he did to the grave with him. He was never quite right afterwards even though it was a righteous shoot. He would only talk about it after a being good and drunk and he did not cope very well

I, on the other hand have a very strong faith based background and I was less affected by the things I saw. None the less, I was still effected.

My point is that seeing a human life end, even if it is a human POS is not always a healthy thing and if it does not bother you...

you may have some deep seated issues.
 
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Cavalry Doc

Cavalry Doc
Everyone deals with a bad situation differently. What your dad's friend needed was someone to let him know that the entire situation began when this fellow decided to come into his home. That it is perfectly reasonable to use deadly force against a home intruder. When confronted with a stranger in your home, it's not time to make a pot of coffee and discuss his financial situation and other motivations for being there. He's there when you are home, meaning that he is not really all that concerned with your wishes, or your safety.

I spent 20 years on Active Duty, I cared for more people that had been shot, stabbed and blown up than I can count. I also got to speak with soldiers after their encounters where they had to use deadly force.

I'd have told your dad's friend that I'd have done the same thing, and would have considered it my responsibility to protect my family.

Seeing a human life end is much better than watching the bad guy stand over your newly perforated body as things go black.

Honestly, If I live the rest of my life and never see another person hurt or killed, I'll be very happy. But life is full of unpleasant duties.


The point remains, I would only shoot someone I had to shoot. If there was an alternative, I'd take it.
It's unhealthy to fantasize about hurting a person, regardless of the situation. It's not something to look forward to. But you should mentally prepare yourself to take actions that you deem unpleasant, if that action is reasonable, legal, and in the best interest of those you love. If you are not prepared to use a weapon in self defense, you should make sure that weapon is either removed from the home, or secured in such a way that it can not fall into the hands of a bad guy. I've had the opportunity to meet some very bad people, I know that very bad people exist. There are some that do not share your sensitivities, and will kill without a second thought or any remorse.

Luckily, the laws where I live, in Texas, support the use of deadly force in a reasonable way. The law favors the property owner, not the bad guy. The take home message there, is that you should probably not ply your trade here, if you are a bad guy. It's likely to get you hurt or killed.



I would hope that no one would want to shoot someone, but if they have to, I support their right to do so.
 

festus

God Bless Our Troops!!!
The laws in Florida are supportive of self defense as well

Everyone deals with a bad situation differently. What your dad's friend needed was someone to let him know that the entire situation began when this fellow decided to come into his home. That it is perfectly reasonable to use deadly force against a home intruder. When confronted with a stranger in your home, it's not time to make a pot of coffee and discuss his financial situation and other motivations for being there. He's there when you are home, meaning that he is not really all that concerned with your wishes, or your safety.

I spent 20 years on Active Duty, I cared for more people that had been shot, stabbed and blown up than I can count. I also got to speak with soldiers after their encounters where they had to use deadly force.

I'd have told your dad's friend that I'd have done the same thing, and would have considered it my responsibility to protect my family.

Seeing a human life end is much better than watching the bad guy stand over your newly perforated body as things go black.

Honestly, If I live the rest of my life and never see another person hurt or killed, I'll be very happy. But life is full of unpleasant duties.


The point remains, I would only shoot someone I had to shoot. If there was an alternative, I'd take it.
It's unhealthy to fantasize about hurting a person, regardless of the situation. It's not something to look forward to. But you should mentally prepare yourself to take actions that you deem unpleasant, if that action is reasonable, legal, and in the best interest of those you love. If you are not prepared to use a weapon in self defense, you should make sure that weapon is either removed from the home, or secured in such a way that it can not fall into the hands of a bad guy. I've had the opportunity to meet some very bad people, I know that very bad people exist. There are some that do not share your sensitivities, and will kill without a second thought or any remorse.

Luckily, the laws where I live, in Texas, support the use of deadly force in a reasonable way. The law favors the property owner, not the bad guy. The take home message there, is that you should probably not ply your trade here, if you are a bad guy. It's likely to get you hurt or killed.



I would hope that no one would want to shoot someone, but if they have to, I support their right to do so.
My point was that after a shooting, A lot of perspectives change some for the better some for the worse. I like you spent 20+ in the military and yes I agree there are some very bad hombres out there. That being said I am prepared to defend life liberty and property but will not look forward to it in the least. It is a conditioned response of military training (muscle memory) You do what you must to survive. You deal with the fall out of those actions as they come. You try not to effect the lives of kids by what they have seen or heard. other than that you press on with pride and schedule an appointment with your pastor to help you get over a significant emotional event.
 

Cavalry Doc

Cavalry Doc
My point was that after a shooting, A lot of perspectives change some for the better some for the worse. I like you spent 20+ in the military and yes I agree there are some very bad hombres out there. That being said I am prepared to defend life liberty and property but will not look forward to it in the least. It is a conditioned response of military training (muscle memory) You do what you must to survive. You deal with the fall out of those actions as they come. You try not to effect the lives of kids by what they have seen or heard. other than that you press on with pride and schedule an appointment with your pastor to help you get over a significant emotional event.


There are plenty of well adjusted happy people that have justifiably killed someone else.

Maybe the solution is some prior planning, and CID's (critical incident debriefing), and maybe some counselling for those that need it.


The best solution is one that allows you to plan ahead in such a way that you lessen your likelyhood of ever being involved in a violent encounter. Yep, that's the best.
 

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