Who Is Liable?


This just went down Monday (7/6/09) here in AZ.

Group of teens playing a gun. The AP tends to leave more questions than answers, but I cannot help but wonder "Whose house? Whose gun? Who is liable?"


Associated Press - July 8, 2009 5:04 PM ET

TUCSON, Ariz. (AP) - A 16-year-old Nogales boy has been arrested after a gun he was handling went off Monday evening killing a teenage girl.

Authorities say the boy was booked into the Santa Cruz County Juvenile Detention Center.

So far, the teen hasn't been charged in the shooting death of 16-year-old Sofia Palma.

Nogales police say Palma and several other teens were having a small gathering at a home Monday night when the shooting occurred.

Police said the suspect found a semi automatic handgun inside the house, and that's when detectives say the teenager began playing with the weapon.

The Santa Cruz County attorney is reviewing the case and is expected to decide soon whether the teen will be charged.
 

srshadwi

New member
I don't know what the law says, but as far as I'm concerned the 16 year-old boy is responsible. I don't know what everyone else remembers about being 16, but I sure as hell knew right from wrong and took responsibility for my actions.

JMO
Steve
 

mistertaco

New member
Looks like minors (15, 16, 17 yrs) are allowed to carry in a private residence. I searched the statutes but could not find anything regarding "proper gun storage" and such.

My interpretation is that the kid is liable and not the homeowners.
 

GeneralSumter

New member
My 5-year old knows right from wrong and knows that guns kill. Would the homeowner be liable if the shooter was 5? I don't know. I can see both sides.:fie:
 
I'm still trying to get more details for certain questions on this one. When this story first was broadcast here, the TV news said the kids "found" the gun. But another story said the kids were playing with a gun in a vacant home - which would tell me ONE of them had to bring it into the vacant home.

More to follow, but no matter how the gun came into the picture, I believe at 16, if you know you have to "hide" to play with the gun, you know playing with it is wrong. One 16 yr. old girl is dead because of another's catastrophic foolishness.
 
More details thanks to AZ Star

After reading a more thorough report, I have little sympathy for this moron. I feel bad for the families of the dead, and feloniously stupid.

One teen dead, another arrested after Nogales shooting

By Alexis Huicochea
Arizona Daily Star
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 07.08.2009

A Nogales teen is in jail after a gun he was handling went off, fatally wounding a 16-year-old girl.
Raul Garcia 16, was arrested for suspicion of second-degree murder in connection with the death of Sofia Palma on Monday night, according to the Nogales Police Department. Under Arizona law, he will be tried as an adult.

Palma and Garcia were two of five kids who attended a gathering at a home in the 1000 block of North Calle Lomitas, police said. No adults were home at the time.

While there, Garcia found a 9 mm Glock handgun in a drawer. He took out the magazine but “may have forgotten to clear the round inside the chamber,” Lt. Octavio Gradillas said in a news release.

Garcia placed the gun inside his mouth and then pointed it at Palma, police said. The weapon went off, striking Palma on the right side of the face.

Garcia is currently being held at the Santa Cruz County Juvenile Detention Center in lieu of $250,000 bond.
Palma was a student at Nogales High School.
 

MADnMO

Jesus - Our Greatest HOPE
After reading a more thorough report, I have little sympathy for this moron. I feel bad for the families of the dead, and feloniously stupid.

One teen dead, another arrested after Nogales shooting

By Alexis Huicochea
Arizona Daily Star
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 07.08.2009

A Nogales teen is in jail after a gun he was handling went off, fatally wounding a 16-year-old girl.
Raul Garcia 16, was arrested for suspicion of second-degree murder in connection with the death of Sofia Palma on Monday night, according to the Nogales Police Department. Under Arizona law, he will be tried as an adult.

Palma and Garcia were two of five kids who attended a gathering at a home in the 1000 block of North Calle Lomitas, police said. No adults were home at the time.

While there, Garcia found a 9 mm Glock handgun in a drawer. He took out the magazine but “may have forgotten to clear the round inside the chamber,” Lt. Octavio Gradillas said in a news release.

Garcia placed the gun inside his mouth and then pointed it at Palma, police said. The weapon went off, striking Palma on the right side of the face.

Garcia is currently being held at the Santa Cruz County Juvenile Detention Center in lieu of $250,000 bond.
Palma was a student at Nogales High School.
The gun should have been locked up. I do believe the 16 year old should be held accountable, however he should not have had access to the gun.
 

FN1910

New member
When it comes to guns a 16 year old is not a child. Any normal 16 year old should be trusted enough to know not to put a gun up to the head of someone and pull the trigger and locking them up from 16 YO is an exercise in futility. They can get into anything you can and don't hand me this BS about only you have the key or combination. The parents may have been negligent by raising an idiot that doesn't know that guns can kill but that is about as far as it goes.
 

utimmer43

New member
My 2YO and 4YO both know that you "Don't touch daddy's gun." I could leave it lay next to their toybox (not that I would) and it wouldn't move an inch. By the time mine are 10-12, they will have more sense about guns than any of these five teens in the house. Any one of them could have prevented this senseless incident.

Point is, this shows how important it is that we raise our kids to respect and eventually properly handle (or don't handle)firearms. The younger they start, the better.

BTW, not blaming the parents (other than the negligence in raising an idiot) or exonerating the teen.
 

FN1910

New member
In a somewhat related case you can read about it here. In this one the boys were 13 and 10 rather than 16. However it does fall along the lines of keeping a gun locked up.

SC father faces weapons charge in boy's shooting - State & Regional - Wire - The State

I did find this about the original story.

News | WCBD



COLUMBIA, S.C. -- The father of a South Carolina boy who shot and killed his 10-year-old brother has been indicted on a federal weapons charge.

The State reported Friday that 45-year-old Gary Travis Roberts of Cassatt is charged with possession of a gun and ammunition by a convicted felon.

Officials say a 13-year-old boy shot his younger brother, Gaylord Roberts, in March because he took his spot watching television. The teen pleaded guilty in May to voluntary manslaughter and is awaiting sentencing.

Gary Roberts is charged with illegal possession of the .22-caliber pump-action rifle used in the shooting. He had been convicted of involuntary manslaughter in 1991 and was prohibited from having guns or ammunition.

He was charged by state officials with illegal neglect of a child. It was unclear if Roberts has an attorney.
 

Invisible_Dave

New member
After reading a more thorough report, I have little sympathy for this moron. I feel bad for the families of the dead, and feloniously stupid.

One teen dead, another arrested after Nogales shooting

By Alexis Huicochea
Arizona Daily Star
Tucson, Arizona | Published: 07.08.2009

A Nogales teen is in jail after a gun he was handling went off, fatally wounding a 16-year-old girl.
Raul Garcia 16, was arrested for suspicion of second-degree murder in connection with the death of Sofia Palma on Monday night, according to the Nogales Police Department. Under Arizona law, he will be tried as an adult.

Palma and Garcia were two of five kids who attended a gathering at a home in the 1000 block of North Calle Lomitas, police said. No adults were home at the time.

While there, Garcia found a 9 mm Glock handgun in a drawer. He took out the magazine but “may have forgotten to clear the round inside the chamber,” Lt. Octavio Gradillas said in a news release.

Garcia placed the gun inside his mouth and then pointed it at Palma, police said. The weapon went off, striking Palma on the right side of the face.

Garcia is currently being held at the Santa Cruz County Juvenile Detention Center in lieu of $250,000 bond.
Palma was a student at Nogales High School.
Gun went off 1 step to early IMHO. At 16 we trust kids with 5000 lb cars and trucks on the highway, knowing not to point and click a gun is basic knowledge. Its sad the 2 lives had to be ruined but I don't feel sorry for the shooter.
 

utimmer43

New member
Gun went off 1 step to early IMHO. At 16 we trust kids with 5000 lb cars and trucks on the highway, knowing not to point and click a gun is basic knowledge. Its sad the 2 lives had to be ruined but I don't feel sorry for the shooter.
You mean one step too late.
 

CathyInBlue

Tool Maker
In Indiana, even if my weapons were secure, if a child of mine were to have a friend over and that friend were to obliterate the secured, wooden storage container to gain access to my guns and ammo and were to do bad things with them, I would still get charged under the Indiana safe storage law since I was negligent in keeping them in a wooden cabinet and not an underground vault make of Kryptonite-Titanium alloy and I stored firearms and ammo together and not on opposite sides of the planet.
 

utimmer43

New member
Yeah, I have a problem with safe storage laws. Don't get me wrong, we do need to be responsible in the way our arms and ammo are stored. But that is different for everyone. And like you said, there are some instances where there is just nothing (short of a 2 ton steel vault with a digital combo, eye scanner, key lock, timer, and voice recognition) able to keep someone out if they really want in. Education is the best defense against this kind of nonsense.
 

kinard.ashley

New member
i am doing a project for my lawed class and we had to choose a crime to do a powerpoint on and i chose gayloyds murder because i knew the boy but i don't know what his sentencing was can anyone tell me what it was if you know. thank you
 

nogods

New member
Anyone who thinks kids can be trusted to act like responsible adults when it comes to firearms, alcohol, cars, prescription drugs, and sex is a fool.

There is no excuse for a firearm be left unsecured in a home.

We can't even expect lots of adults to act responsible when it comes to handling firearms, including adults at gun shows, at firing ranges, at gun stores, and even highly trained leo's.

An adult who relies on the "maturity and judgment" of 16-year-old to excuse his own negligence in securing a firearm should be prosecuted for stupidity.
 

FN1910

New member
In some states it is legal for a 16 year old to walk around with a gun at his side and no supervision.

A local story about a 17 year old robbing a pawn shop and killing one employee and wounding another. I don't know what age is OK to carry a gun but I think it should be at least 25 or 30. You can't rent a car until you are 25 so maybe they know something.
Florence teen faces judge in pawn shop murder | SCNOW
 

JimPage

New member
FN1910

The reason you can't rent a car until you are 25 is because the insurance will not cover someone under 25. 25 or 30 to carry a gun? That rules out most of our military and a great many LEO. Be realistic.
 

nogods

New member
FN1910

The reason you can't rent a car until you are 25 is because the insurance will not cover someone under 25. 25 or 30 to carry a gun? That rules out most of our military and a great many LEO. Be realistic.
Leo and military are trained. Insurance companies will not allow rental to under 25 because they know from experienced that they are not mature enough to be trusted with a killing machine.
 

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