UT DPS urges UT lawmakers... no more non-resident permits.
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Thread: UT DPS urges UT lawmakers... no more non-resident permits.

  1. #1
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    UT DPS urges UT lawmakers... no more non-resident permits.

    Deseret News | Gun permits shoot up

    Gun permits shoot up
    Reject applications from out of state, some say

    As the number of concealed weapons permits issued by Utah continues to climb, public safety officials told lawmakers Wednesday it might be time to stop accepting applications from out-of-state.
    By the end of the year, Utah is projected to have issued more than 40,000 concealed weapons permits nearly a 150 percent increase over 2007 and more than a 250 percent boost from 2006.

    Slightly more than half of the permit applications received since the beginning of the budget year on July 1, 2007, have gone to Utahns. But since 1994, about two-thirds of the applications have come from out-of-state.

    "This program has been growing by leaps and bounds," Lt. Doug Anderson, who runs the concealed weapons permit program for the Utah Department of Public Safety, told members of the Legislature's Law Enforcement and Criminal Justice Interim Committee.

    The increase in applications has boosted revenues from the program to about $1 million annually, up from a projected $600,000 or so. That's enabled the department to cut the time it takes to process an application from three months to just one, Anderson said.

    But committee member Sen. Bill Hickman, R-St. George, was more interested in why the state was issuing concealed weapons permits to non-Utahns rather than simply relying on existing reciprocity agreements with other states.

    Those agreements allow concealed weapons permits to be treated like a drivers license. For example, someone with a Utah driver's license may legally drive in other states just as someone with a license issued by another state may legally drive in Utah.
    Public safety officials said the long-standing practice of issuing permits to non-Utahns has left them with problems, including policing out-of-state instructors teaching a required course to obtain the Utah permit. Some 70 percent of the Utah-certified instructors don't live here.

    "We would welcome some clarification," Public Safety Commissioner Scott Duncan told the committee, reminding them the state has already stopped issue permits to non-U.S. residents last year for similar reasons.

    He said any benefit to the state from issuing permits to non-Utahns "would be hard to know" when asked by another committee member, Sen. Scott McCoy, D-Salt Lake, to come up with pluses of the program.

    Later, Duncan said he's recommending the state stop issuing the permits to non-Utahns but the decision is up to lawmakers. "We'll do it any way they want us to do it," he said, adding, "I think we need to look out for our state first."

    One of the strongest gun-rights advocates in the Legislature, Rep. Curt Oda, R-Clearfield, who also sits on the committee, said the question he would ask about issuing concealed weapons permits to non-Utahns is simply, "Why not?"

    Oda said after the meeting that he would oppose eliminating out-of-state permits.

    "An American is an American," he said. "I don't care if he's a New York American or a Utah American, as citizens we have rights."

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  3. #2
    Oda said after the meeting that he would oppose eliminating out-of-state permits.

    "An American is an American," he said. "I don't care if he's a New York American or a Utah American, as citizens we have rights."

    A POLITICIAN said that? I am stunned.


    Why doesn't a major political party choose Oda for President? I'd vote for him based on that statement alone.
    People don't like to be meddled with. We tell them what to do, what to think, don't run, don't walk. We're in their homes and in their heads and we haven't the right. We're meddlesome.--River Tam

  4. Quote Originally Posted by NDS View Post
    A POLITICIAN said that? I am stunned.


    Why doesn't a major political party choose Oda for President? I'd vote for him based on that statement alone.
    I wish there were more politicians like that here in Kalifornia.

    The DPS is missing the point regarding nonresident CCWs. A large percentage of nonresident permit holders probably won't even set foot in Utah. I would think that most get it because of the recognition and reciprocity by other states. Therefore, the state of Utah benefits even more.
    Last edited by calmp9; 05-23-2008 at 10:25 PM.

  5. #4
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    "An American is an American."

    Why don't legislators in every state think this way? This is exactly what legislators should bear in mind when they make laws; how the law will benefit the greatest number of Americans, not just residents from their state or legislative district. I don't know much about this guy's record, but on the basis of that statement alone, I like him.

  6. Quote Originally Posted by tattedupboy View Post
    "An American is an American."

    Why don't legislators in every state think this way? This is exactly what legislators should bear in mind when they make laws; how the law will benefit the greatest number of Americans, not just residents from their state or legislative district. I don't know much about this guy's record, but on the basis of that statement alone, I like him.
    The State of Utah can turn the nonresident CCW into a money making machine. They're only charging $65.25 now. Even if they make it $117 like Florida, I wouldn't have a problem with it. It's in line with what the other states are charging. Let's face it. I have a Utah permit and I will probably never set foot in Utah. I got it because of the reciprocity with Washington State, which I plan to visit soon. Utah BCI can increase the fee. People will still apply for it either way. I believe that the State of Utah has ever right to make some bones on this program. Hopefully, they can generate some good revenue, while being able to hire additional personnel to help out. The politicians were concerned about not being able to monitor the out of state instructors. If they increase the CCW application fee, they can do it. I know that there are people out there who will disagree with me, but it's one way of keeping the current Utah CCW program alive.

  7. Thats sure is too bad for those American aged 18-21 if this happens, eh? Their rights just gets infringed then?

  8. #7
    As an out of state Utah instructor, I'm offended that anyone would even think of ending this program.

    I teach a monthly Utah permit class, providing my 30-50 students a month with a student manual that follows the BCI outline. I give everyone copies of Utah law and I expressly tell them that they need to study these laws, even if they never go to Utah. Its just like any other state. You need to be aware of the various laws if you travel. I encourage students to complete the instructor evals.

    To end this program would be extremely detrimental to my business. Utahns, you need to help fight this bill!

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    As an out of state Utah instructor, I'm offended that anyone would even think of ending this program.

    I teach a monthly Utah permit class, providing my 30-50 students a month with a student manual that follows the BCI outline. I give everyone copies of Utah law and I expressly tell them that they need to study these laws, even if they never go to Utah. Its just like any other state. You need to be aware of the various laws if you travel. I encourage students to complete the instructor evals.

    To end this program would be extremely detrimental to my business. Utahns, you need to help fight this bill!
    We're already seeing phase one of this happening with non-resident Utah instructors possibly being eliminated under HB204 this legislative session. I have e-mailed UT BCI. The Director e-mailed me back today that he doesn't know how this will affect non-resident instructors that renew before the bill becomes law so I am taking a chance that I am throwing good money towards a certification that will be revoked shortly after obtaining it. I'm taking the March renewal class in West Jordan Utah. I have also e-mailed Go!Utah, Clark Aposhian and Curtis Oda on HB204. Since some key players in the Utah RKBA are backing this bill, there's a good probability us non-resident Utah CFP instructors are probably going to get thrown under the bus with non-resident CFP holders being next.

    One of the things that irk me that I am going to hold all Utahns to is why isn't this an issue in Florida? Florida has a comparable number of States to Utah and they have been shall issue for over 20 years. Florida also has one of the most liberal training requirements of all of the shall issue States with a training requirement. Florida has at about five times as many license holders as Utah does total currently.

    We also have the States with no training requirement such as NH, PA and WA. Many things in the SLC Tribune article stink.
    Last edited by LVLouisCyphre; 02-10-2009 at 03:07 PM.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  10. #9
    If anyone in Utah has a list of legislators, key figures, etc that I could start writing emails to, I'd appreciate it if you could pass that along.

  11. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by ProShooter View Post
    If anyone in Utah has a list of legislators, key figures, etc that I could start writing emails to, I'd appreciate it if you could pass that along.
    Clark Aposhian Civilian CFP Review Board Chairman; [email protected]
    Curtis Oda; [email protected]

    Mr. Oda and Aposhian are working together on the bill.

    We do not have the support of the State pro-RKBA organizations except for the NRA on our side. The NRA knows that if out of State UT CFP instructors go it will lower the need and support of their instructor certification program that's why Brian Judy who is the NRA UT State Liaison is not supporting this bill. It will put many instructors nationwide out of business as the primary demand for us is to teach the UT CFP class.

    Keep in mind they are both in state Utah CFP instructors. I suspect an ulterior motive for outlawing out of State instructors and not what was mentioned in the SLC Tribune article. One of the things that was mentioned was a Utah resident instructor flying to wherever they were needed outside of Utah. Isn't one of the criticisms of Utah DPS is they do not have the resources to audit classes conducted out of State? So do what Arizona, Nevada, Texas and other States do, all instruction must occur within the respective State.

    I have been advised by Mr. Aposhian that if HB204 passes as is your out of State instructor certification will be revoked once the law goes into effect which would be July 1, 2009 at the earliest. You will simply not be allowed to renew. He didn't seem to care that we're getting thrown under the bus.

    I am sending an e-mail to Utah BCI Firearms Unit to cancel my renewal class per the recommendation of Mr. Aposhian. If HB204 gets watered down where I can renew it after it lapses I will go that route. I am also going to mention to Lt Anderson who supervises BCI that they have a responsibility to notify every non-resident student that the class they are signed up to take and have paid for may be useless and a waste of their time and money come July 1, 2009 if HB204 passes as it is written now.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

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