Utah gun rights advocates team with gun-control fans
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Thread: Utah gun rights advocates team with gun-control fans

  1. #1
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    Utah gun rights advocates team with gun-control fans

    HB204 The bill would eliminate out-of-state concealed firearm instructors.

    Utah's gun rights activists are breaking ranks with the National Rifle Association for the first time in recent memory and instead are joining forces with gun-control advocates such as Sen. Scott McCoy.

    They have come together over problems with out-of-state concealed firearm instructors rubber stamping permits instead of properly instructing applicants.

    "This is an unfortunate but necessary step we in the gun rights community are supporting in order to maintain the integrity and credibility of the Utah permit," said Charles Hardy, policy director for Gun Owners of Utah.

    McCoy, a Salt Lake City Democrat who supports gun control measures, agrees with the bill.

    "I'm happy they want to tighten up the program," he said of Utah's gun rights activists. "Good on them for pursuing a problem and working to fix it."

    Utah has about 1,000 instructors, and two-thirds of them aren't Utahns, said Lt. Doug Anderson, program manager at the Bureau of Criminal Identification, which oversees the permit. He estimates complaints at between 20 and 30, mostly about out-of-state instructors.

    Brian Judy, Utah state liaison for the National Rifle Association, said Utah needs more concrete evidence that states want to stop recognizing its permit before taking such a drastic step. Instead he'd like to see licenses revoked on a case-by-case basis.

    However, Clark Aposhian, chairman of the Utah Shooting Sports Council and of BCI's weapons review board, says he already has legislators from around the country saying they are ready to stop recognizing Utah's permit because of concerns with some instructors.

    "I will fight hard now to keep reciprocity with all 35 states rather than fight hard for the next 10 years to get it back, and maybe never get it back," he said.

    He recognized that out-of-state permits could decrease slightly, but said the fact it's so widely recognized and inexpensive will draw people to Utah to get the permit or have groups pay for a Utah instructor to fly out to them. Currently, about half of Utah's 142,000 permits are carried by nonresidents.

    Rep. Curt Oda, R-Clearfield, a strong gun rights supporter, is sponsoring the proposed change in HB204. He said he's willing to work with the NRA as long as it addresses the problem.

    "We're the most valuable permit in the country because of the training we require both for instructors and permit holders," Oda said. "It bothers me there are some instructors out there who say 'Pay me the money and I'll certify you.'"

    The NRA's Judy said he would like more feedback from students so BCI can watch nonresident instructors better.

    BCI, though, has three investigators, only two of whom spend time in the field. Anderson said he simply doesn't have the manpower to police nonresident instructors.

    "These people have a permit but don't have any knowledge of state law," he said. "It's a big responsibility to carry a concealed, loaded weapon, and we want to make sure permit holders understand laws regulating use of force."

    Source: SLTrib


    Memberships: NRA, GOA, USCCA
    Guns: Glock 26, Ruger LCP, Beretta 90-Two .40, Beretta PX4 Storm Subcompact 9MM, Beretta Tomcat, Bushmaster Patrolman M4

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  3. #2
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    There goes the neighborhood.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  4. #3
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    I have been in contact with Lt Anderson of Utah BCI via e-mail. For anyone who has registered for the Utah CFP instructor class who is not a Utah resident will be given the option of canceling the class without penalty and a refund of their registration fee.

    Utah BCI will be contacting non-resident instructor applicants scheduled for the instructor class, informing them of Utah HB204 and its potential impact on you if it passes as it is presently written.

    You can also contact Utah BCI via e-mail from their site and submit your cancellation request. Non-residents will have the option of reapplying if HB204 does not pass as it is presently written and non-resident Utah CFP instructor certification is not outlawed.

    I have no complaints about Utah BCI, their administration of the program or their customer service.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  5. #4
    I am registered for a UT CCW class in CNY in April and I hope they find another way to deal with this issue without cutting out every out of state instructor just because of a few bad seeds.

    Here is a link to the current status of this bill.

    H.B. 204 Bill Status

  6. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by jeffx View Post
    I am registered for a UT CCW class in CNY in April and I hope they find another way to deal with this issue without cutting out every out of state instructor just because of a few bad seeds.
    Unfortunately we do not have the support of the Utah pro-firearm lobbyists or the Utah State legislature. We do have the support of the NRA, but I do not know if that's enough.

    Send your e-mail to;

    Curtis Oda; [email protected]
    Clark Aposhian; [email protected]

    Expressing your concern. While they do support non-resident UT CFPs, restricting who can teach the class will have a negative impact. I also suggest you inform your UT CFP instructor of this legislation so they can express their concerns.

    Do not contact Utah BCI, Lt Anderson and his staff is understanding of the non-resident instructors who are with the program and the effect it will have on them.

    I am sending an e-mail to Mr. Aposhian tonight and ccing Mr. Oda asking the merits of the loss of the credibility of the Utah CFP.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  7. #6
    I received an email reply from Mr. Aposhian today. He asked that the email not be distributed. It was very much the same as what we already knew - a few bad apples have spoiled the program and they want to protect the integrity of the program.

  8. I just took the non-res class here in PA and found it very thorough. Almost to the point of being tedious....
    Very good instructor and he did not deviate one iota from the BCI standard - he was adamant about that. He also mentioned that it was a felony for him to short-cut any aspect of the class.

  9. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Theojt View Post
    I just took the non-res class here in PA and found it very thorough. Almost to the point of being tedious....
    Very good instructor and he did not deviate one iota from the BCI standard - he was adamant about that. He also mentioned that it was a felony for him to short-cut any aspect of the class.
    Send your feedback to Utah BCI, Curtis Oda and Clark Aposhian.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  10. Yes, I did submit my feedback to BCI, Rep. Oda and Mr. Aposhian and I completed the BCI survey and emailed it as well.

    Those of us with positive experiences all should email/write.

    Jeff

  11. #10
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    I am a Utah BCI Instructor in Eastern PA and run a fairly high concentration of courses. I teach the course in strict accordance to Utah Statute as outlined in their instruction syllabus. While this would be an unfortunate measure it is still within the right of the State to determine who may administer the courses. The State giveth, the State may taketh away...

    I traveled to Utah for my re-certification last year and found the BCI folks to be a pleasure to work with. These folks really have their act together.

    If you have taken a good course my advice is to convey this to the proper folks in Utah. If you encounter a less than adequate instructor I also recommend contacting the BCI directly as a measure to maintain the integrity of the non-resident permits.

    There may also be underlying factors to this whole mess that go beyond the integrity of the reciprocal process. The "value" of the Utah permit is high and many applicants come forward seeking a non-resident permit. There are administrative costs in running this program from a state budgetary prospective.

    The alternative if Utah stops this program would be to instead seek substitution with the Florida permit.

    As much as I would hate to see the Utah non-resident program change in this way, it may be a decision that has been made possible by the absence of interest on the part of Utah resident gun owners. It's basic human nature.

    In the absence of a non-resident Utah permit, I will resume conducting Basic NRA Pistol courses to fulfill the training mandate for Florida permits.

    Jason Schafer
    JSHolsters, LLC
    I may be out of the Marine Corps but the Marine Corps is in me for life.


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