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Thread: Helping a victim or not????

  1. #21
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    I first thought the OP was trolling. But, after reading all the posts I don't think the OP is trying to be some wannabe "sheepdog". I get the sense he is honestly seeking a logical & common sense approach to his concerns.

    1st off, I am someone that has some experience with the examples cited by the OP. So, I come down on the side that your primary duty is to survive by whatever means necessary.

    If survival means I have to shoot someone then I will. But, if they choose to backdown "ANYTIME" prior to my pulling the trigger, I hold the shot & call 911. I'm also the type of guy who most likely is NOT going to standby and watch anybody take a major beatdown while they are laying on the ground defenseless. HOWEVER!!!! My firearm is NOT going to be my 1st choice at stopping such an encounter. (Especially, if I haven't seen things go down from the beginning.)

    I'm not going to just walk on by like nothing is happening; precisely for the reasons the OP suggests. The way I see things is; if it's a BG beating an innocent, I could NOT live with myself if I sat by & did nothing while someone was being raped or murdered. (I've personally seen the aftermath of BOTH; and it's does NOT sit well with me.)

    If it's a GG beating a BG, chances are they are hoping & praying someone will come along & help; so they can STOP beating the BG.

    IMHO; this attitude doesn't make you a wannabe sheepdog hero. The willingness to help you fellow man/woman makes you a good human being.

    -

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  3. #22
    TCOX4FREEDOM, Thank you for answering my question in a way that shows how this situation could be handled in more than one way as NAVYLCDR and PROVIDENCE RANCH as well as some others have shown. It seems that if you have a question on here only a certain amount of people on here will answer without the assumption that you're trying to restart old issues. That to me is not why this forum was put together I'm assuming but to answer questions. Respect others opinions and if it annoys you to what they're saying or asking please don't reply then.

  4. #23
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    In the first scenario... if he disengages you let him go unless doing so poses a grave threat to others (is there any other kind?). You may try to hold him at the scene; get him to lie down and wait for police. But if he runs you generally let him go. Call the police of you drew your gun and get his description up on their network. If you engage him always remember to stay back from him. Many perps can close a 25 foot gap and inflict a fatal blow or stab in about 1.5 seconds.

    The second scenario is impossible to judge given the minimal facts presented. Personal protection rarely that cut and dry. My wife would have have already shot the would-be rapist. Assisting a victim doesn't always mean shooting. You can draw down on the perp and order him to the ground. If he runs but has severely harmed her then he poses a grave threat to others and you may want to stop him. If he turns the attack on you, you may stop him. Just remember that even if you're 100% correct in your actions it may ruin your life so only draw that gun when willing to accept some possibly costly consequences. As far as robberies? Stay out unless you can't. But if you must act, do so with a deliberate intent and a shall-win attitude.
    GOD, GUNS and GUITARS

  5. Turn a blind eye

    I have been a firefighter for almost 30 years now I can't tell you how many times people have walked on by as if nothing was going on. People have been pacified by the libs into thinking the government is the only answerer. Mostt people can't even think or take care of themselves anymore, don't believe me take a walk into your local er and tell me how many emergencies vs bs are sitting there. Don't expect people to come to your aid unless one of us happens by.

  6. #25
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    This is a subject you have to go over and over in your head. Maybe someday you will have an experience that shows you how your subconscious works. EX: One day I was walking back to my apartment after getting my mail. I look over to see a stroller rolling backwards out of the next alleyway of the apartment. My body started to run before I thought "Oh crap I need to help the baby." I didn't think, will the parents think I'm a threat? Will someone else think I'm a threat? Maybe its a bomb not a baby? It was at that point I realized I probably would help out a stranger, and have changed my training and mentality accordingly.

    Phillip Gain laid it out very well. It's up to you to choose whether or not to help. It is not a matter of right or wrong. It's not black and white. Just be prepared for the consequences if something were to go wrong (legal or moral). Weigh the risk vs benefit. Choose now if you want to help someone or not.

    There is a show, "What would you do?" They set up scenarios and see how people react. There was one in particular, where a group of kids were picking on a single person (each scenario was different, whites vs blacks, blacks vs whites, mix vs mexican etc). I was amazed at how many unarmed citizens helped fully aware of how dangerous it could have been. Is the term sheepdog only given to the armed citizens? Or can an unarmed citizen be a sheepdog too? Before I ever carried a gun, I was helping people that I was not obligated to help. Was I a sheepdog then, or just now that I carry a firearm? I agree that now that I do carry a firearm my mentality and training have changed from being unarmed, but my natural response is to help others.

    My wife has told me, one of the better qualities in me is that I have chosen to help people (professionally and personally). There is a risk associated with it, can you handle that risk?

  7. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by NavyLCDR:229575

    Then when the rape is done and the criminal cuts her throat with the knife, then what? Oh, I'm sorry... I could have prevented that... but I chose to call the police... who, when seconds count are only two hours away. I would not have it in me to stand by and be the best possible witness to a violent crime while waiting for the police to arrive.
    Problem is your are electing to sight an extreme example. I doubt, in that situation, anyone is going to stand by. But the most probable situations are not going to be so clear nor extreme.

  8. #27
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  9. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Providence Ranch View Post
    @S&WM&P40

    Interesting. I was rather certain some small mind out there would miss my point entirely, and the word "sheepdog" or "keyboard warrior" or some other clever slam would come out. Nice.

    What you'll notice, though, if you reread my post, Is that never once did I suggest that the firearm is the only element in the use of force continuum. Of course the first answer is rarely going to "draw and fire." There are many other options for providing assistance, as you pointed out.

    What I am railing against in particular is the attitude that some have, that whenever anyone suggests they would be the type to get involved and help someone in need, they do just as you have, and jeer and label them wannabe cops or caped crusaders, etc.

    Apparently, if you're the kind of person to help out a stranger in trouble, but you keep quiet about it, you're ok. But the minute you speak up, you're a mall ninja. Pathetic.
    Actually, I also said I would help. But I just stated it matter of factly. What the sheepdog haters here have a problem with are the folks that swing a big speech how they would nobly jump into the breech to selflessly save the maiden.

  10. #29
    I cannot emphasize enough. It boils down to situational awareness.

    In most states, the standard for defending oneself is the "reasonable person" standard: If you reasonably believe you are in danger and defend yourself, your actions are covered under the law in most states. (Even if there was a misunderstanding of the alleged assailant's intent.)

    However - when intervening on behalf of another, in most states the "reasonable person" standard does not apply, and your actions are weighed against the facts in evidence.

    For example - you come across one person holding another at gunpoint. You draw and order him to put down his weapon...then when he refuses and the situation seems to escalate, you fire and the shot is lethal. If it turns out that the armed person was the assailant (a robber for example), then you're covered. If it turns out that the armed person was a homeowner, and the person being held at gunpoint was a would-be burglar who had been chased out of the home - then you ARE GUILTY of manslaughter at very least because your actions are weighed against facts...not against the "reasonable person" standard. (If you don't believe me - ask an attorney. I'm not going to engage in debate on this example.)

    This is why it is CRITICAL to know what you're getting into. Is that woman screaming in the alley a victim? Or a prostitute? Or a robber? Or a drug addict/dealer? Is that guy a thug beating up on her? Or an undercover cop trying to make an arrest? Or a robbery victim trying to get away?

    Extreme examples? Unlikely scenarios? Maybe, maybe not. But that's why I'm emphasizing that you have to BE AWARE of what you're getting into, and what the risks are, before you decide to intervene on behalf of a stranger.
    S&W M&P 45; Ruger GP100 .357 Magnum; Charter Arms .38 Undercover
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  11. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Phillip Gain View Post
    I cannot emphasize enough. It boils down to situational awareness.

    In most states, the standard for defending oneself is the "reasonable person" standard: If you reasonably believe you are in danger and defend yourself, your actions are covered under the law in most states. (Even if there was a misunderstanding of the alleged assailant's intent.)

    However - when intervening on behalf of another, in most states the "reasonable person" standard does not apply, and your actions are weighed against the facts in evidence.

    For example - you come across one person holding another at gunpoint. You draw and order him to put down his weapon...then when he refuses and the situation seems to escalate, you fire and the shot is lethal. If it turns out that the armed person was the assailant (a robber for example), then you're covered. If it turns out that the armed person was a homeowner, and the person being held at gunpoint was a would-be burglar who had been chased out of the home - then you ARE GUILTY of manslaughter at very least because your actions are weighed against facts...not against the "reasonable person" standard. (If you don't believe me - ask an attorney. I'm not going to engage in debate on this example.)

    This is why it is CRITICAL to know what you're getting into. Is that woman screaming in the alley a victim? Or a prostitute? Or a robber? Or a drug addict/dealer? Is that guy a thug beating up on her? Or an undercover cop trying to make an arrest? Or a robbery victim trying to get away?

    Extreme examples? Unlikely scenarios? Maybe, maybe not. But that's why I'm emphasizing that you have to BE AWARE of what you're getting into, and what the risks are, before you decide to intervene on behalf of a stranger.
    That is what worries me most about getting involved, you just don't know who's doing what to whom and why. But in the situation described the setting seemed clear enough. Most likely it will not be in an actual situation.

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