What must I do to stay legal?
Results 1 to 7 of 7

Thread: What must I do to stay legal?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Inland Empire
    Posts
    394

    Question What must I do to stay legal?

    A old friend of mine died last week, 81 y/o. A highly decorated Vet of WWII, Korea and tours into Vietnam & Cambodia. Plus ops he still couldn't elaborate on even after our close 7 year friendship.
    He left behind him a treausre-trove of good weapons I'd like to buy that his son has told me I get 1st choice of. George D., told me that my small collection needed improving, his passing corrects that, although I wish to God he was still alive & well and heading to the local ranges, his favorite places. Large & smaller semi-autos, one beautiful ornate gold & silver filagree inlaid presentation M1911 mounted in a plexiglass case is just too good to even fire one more round thru! A very nice Ruger .44 Magnum Redhawk revolver only 4" barrel, plus a .22 AR6 Pyramydair (repeating) pellet rifle that sent many barn rats & mice into red stains, and all the ammo/mags/holsters and cases, etc., that go with 'em. Being an ultra-law abiding Vet he was, a fellow CCW permit holder, NRA lifetime member, all his weapons were registered with the local court-house, even the ones he bought & sold from his freemason/NRA/Vet M8's. His main reason was for getting them back after a theft. They also showed on his home insurance policy for reimbursement if they stayed gone. Estate sale coming up in 5 days and his son told me I get it all for $2K! WOW! I don't want to screw this chance of a life time up with any legality mess-ups. I have a WA CC permit, meaning I can go into any WA FFL/gun store and walk out with any new or used weapon sold & registered by them as part of the sale, no long waits. His son is selling them to me dirt cheap because he knew how much I admired the collection and the solid friendship I had formed with his dad. They are in very good condition with the exception of his S&W 38. snub service revolver that saved his life but shows it's age. His son knows nothing about guns, never did time in BDU's, has young kids and doesn't want an arsenal around his own home. He knows nothing of our RCW's, he drove in from somewhere when his dad passed. I have never bought a used weapon from a FFL or another person. I always bought new models that were registered thru the local FFL in CA and later here in WA when I bought them, same deal. I normally don't buy used weapons but these are just too good to pass-up at the price and the obvious care he put into keeping them as good as new.
    Now come the questions:
    Do I have a requirement to re-register those weapons under my name? I don't even have his original paperwork on those weapons and his son can't find them, and if I have to register them that could be tricky. If I do register them, with whom and how long after the sale is a legal grace-period, if any? Do I need more than a generic bill of sale from his son? I ask because I want to stay legal, not have a fortune in guns taken away from me for any reason, and I can't find a law online that gives me solid guidance about any of this, or I wouldn't call on USA Carry for help. Somehow it doesn't feel legal owning those weapons with serial #'s registered to a dead man if those weapons ever come to the attention of a LEO or end up missing.
    Posting this on the WA state forum for obvious reasons. One state, same rules for Sea-Tac or Spokane & all places in between the Evergreen State!
    Any WA state gun owner who has gone thru the private buying/selling of previously registered weapons deal I'd listen to you, and love a link that spells it out so I could maybe print up the right forms if any are required to file the paperwork ASAP.
    Regards,

    Canis-Lupus

  2.   
  3. #2
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Location
    Panhandle, Idaho
    Posts
    279
    Private party transfers in Washington have no requirement to notify authorities or use a FFL.

    I found a thread at another forum, which has some links in it you may want to see. One will allow you to notify the state of your ownership if you should want to. There's a second thread from another site which basicallly confirms the first.

    Private gun Transfers. - Washington - Stories From The States - OpenCarry.org - Discussion Forum
    Trading hand guns from private party? is it legal? precautions? - Yahoo!7 Answers

    I would make sure you get a bill of sale for each gun from your friend's estate or son. This will show they were legally transfered to you.

    Good luck and enjoy your new guns.

  4. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Inland Empire
    Posts
    394

    Smile Thanks for the help ;-**

    Thanks Stiofan,
    I appreciate the advice, the link(s) and I made a call to the front-desk of our main police station. 30 mins later an officer basically told me that with a CC-permit it makes the transfer much easier from a private seller. No requirement to register a gun during a private sale, the FFL does that part for U if U buy from one in town. He did state I should get a bill of sale with date, price, seller, buyer, weapons listed by type and S/N. He suggested I put one together in a program like MS Word. OK! Can do but I wish there was an Adobe PDF WA state specific or all state legal (?) to CYA in case they are stolen or used in a crime.
    I'll then send off a copy snail-mail to our county clerk so they know who at least now owns the guns.
    Thanks again,

    Canis-Lupus

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Canis-Lupus View Post
    Thanks Stiofan,
    I appreciate the advice, the link(s) and I made a call to the front-desk of our main police station. 30 mins later an officer basically told me that with a CC-permit it makes the transfer much easier from a private seller. No requirement to register a gun during a private sale, the FFL does that part for U if U buy from one in town. He did state I should get a bill of sale with date, price, seller, buyer, weapons listed by type and S/N. He suggested I put one together in a program like MS Word. OK! Can do but I wish there was an Adobe PDF WA state specific or all state legal (?) to CYA in case they are stolen or used in a crime.
    I'll then send off a copy snail-mail to our county clerk so they know who at least now owns the guns.
    Thanks again,

    Canis-Lupus
    Sounds like you already WOULD be state-legal if you did all that. Being a private transfer, the state has no juristiction...it's mainly just a CYA move to do the bill-of-sale.
    Victory rewards not the army that fires the most rounds, but who is the more accurate shot. ---Unknown

  6. #5
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Green Valley (Henderson) NV
    Posts
    853
    Quote Originally Posted by Canis-Lupus View Post
    Thanks Stiofan,
    I appreciate the advice, the link(s) and I made a call to the front-desk of our main police station. 30 mins later an officer basically told me that with a CC-permit it makes the transfer much easier from a private seller. No requirement to register a gun during a private sale, the FFL does that part for U if U buy from one in town. He did state I should get a bill of sale with date, price, seller, buyer, weapons listed by type and S/N. He suggested I put one together in a program like MS Word. OK! Can do but I wish there was an Adobe PDF WA state specific or all state legal (?) to CYA in case they are stolen or used in a crime.
    I'll then send off a copy snail-mail to our county clerk so they know who at least now owns the guns.
    Private transfers are legal per federal law providing both the seller and buyer reside in the same State. Non-FFLs can buy handguns only in their declared State of residency. There is an exemption for active duty military and for persons who are a part time resident of other States during certain parts of the year. Non-FFLs can buy a long gun from any FFL in any State providing there's no State or local law that prohibits it.

    If the seller is visiting WA State to handle the deceased's estate and is not a legal resident of WA then the transfer should be handled by the executor of the will (who is a legal resident of the State that has jurisdiction over the probate matter), a probate attorney or other trustee of the deceased's estate resided in at the time of their passing or a FFL needs to be involved. This is per the GCA of 1968.

    Unless you are required to notify the county clerk of firearm transfers in your State, they're going to scratch their head and say, "Why do I have this document?" As far as I know the only State that has that requirement is NY as the county clerk in many NY counties also deal with additions and deletions to NY permits. NY is a State that requires a permit to touch. I would not record the bill of sale. Notarize it maybe, but never record. Take the bill of sale with serial numbers and keep it in a safe place. Never record a document unless you have to; all recorded documents are public record in all States.

    If you record the bill of sale you have now have made it public record you now own these firearms and have opened yourself up for possible theft. Anyone off the street can go to the county recorder's office and look at the bill of sale. They also now have your name. It would then be trivial for them to locate your residence and steal the firearms through a public record search. If you own your own home and it is not in a trust or other asset protection mechanism that keeps you off the radar all they need to do is find the recorded deed to your home. If you're married, they can also find the name of your spouse through a public record search as well.
    Last edited by netentity; 06-20-2008 at 09:31 AM. Reason: Clarified interstate estate transfers.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

  7. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2008
    Location
    Inland Empire
    Posts
    394

    Thumbs up I am learning.

    Thanks a million netentitity,
    The son drove up from CA to settle the estate and drives back in 3 days, not a lot of time to do much but sell dad's car and a home full of U name it. He is the executor and sole beneficiary of all his dad's estate per the LW&T. He is not a WA resident & I don't think he'll be back. We did do a generic bill of sale (MS-Word), he got a copy with S/N, make, date, price, our state DL #'s on both copies, and the address of the late owner of the gun who by law willed all his entire estate to his 1st born son, no sibling squabbles thank-God to mess this up. I kept one, he got the other copy. I paid cash. I don't think it needs to go any further than that. I like to stay VERY legal espescially with weapons, but I think this was a private matter/sale done between a guy I may never see again, legally and in good faith. To send anything into WA records seems like a waste of time, and he sure ain't coming back up here to do any paperwork. The FFL part has me a bit nervous, but as they didn't sell it to me, had nothng to do with it's sale to me, but did to his late father who as a 35 year active-duty turned Vet may have got that weapon anywhere no bill of sale was found, then my honest response to any legal questions is I really do not know where to get hold of this guy and if there is no requirement to register a private weapon sale other than in NYC then I think I am as legal as I can get. To avoid self-incrimination on this subject, it may be best to shoot me a private USA-Carry e-mail if you see any red lights flashing in my future. I do thank you for a very thorough reply to a question that is starting to make more sense to me the more feed-back I get from experts like you.
    Many thanks for your very informative reply!

    Canis-Lupus

  8. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    Green Valley (Henderson) NV
    Posts
    853

    You're legal IMO, but the seller may not be

    You're legal but the seller may not be as the transfer occured in your State of residency. You live in WA State, the transfer occurred in WA State, it's not your responsibility to verify the residency status of the seller. It is the seller's responsibility to verify your residency status if they want to avoid possibly being charged with a crime by ATF. You also have access to the deceased's death certificate along with the will so you have proof it was an estate transfer. Will anyone get charged with a crime? Not likely. Estate transactions are an emotional time if the executor of the will is a family member and not a neutral third party.

    Per the CGA of 1968, private transfers must occur in the declared State of residency of both parties. There is a big gray area on estate transfers in transactions. Since the seller is from CA, he's probably not very gun savvy or friendly to begin with and just wanted to get rid of the estate.

    Another CYA maneuver I would do would be to verify if anything that you bought is stolen. While you can't be charged with receiving stolen merchandise and probably quite a few of the things you bought are probably on the C&R list it is good to do your due diligence. If an FFL is involved, you are spared that liability risk as you have a reasonable expectation of receiving sellable merchandise from a licensed dealer.

    The purpose of the FFL being involved is to comply the the CGA of 1968 which outlawed interstate private transfers. If the firearm crosses state lines, an FFL needs to be involved. The firearms did not physically leave WA state so the gray area is if the seller was legal in selling them to you per CGA of 1968. I buy firearms all the time through the Internet via auctionarms, gunbroker and gunsamerica. For me to be legal, a friendly neighborhood FFL needs to be involved. The seller ships the firearm to a local FFL. They handle the ATF paperwork and registration through LVMPD if it's a concealable firearm. The FFL charges me a fee to do the paperwork to comply with GCA of 1968 and a NICS check if necessary. NV CFPs are still NICS exemptions so I don't have to pay the $25 Brady tax in Nevada.
    Last edited by netentity; 06-20-2008 at 09:45 AM.
    Know the law; don't ask, don't tell.
    NRA & UT Certified Instructor; CT, FL, NH, NV, OR, PA & UT CCW Holder
    Happy new 1984; 25 years behind schedule. Send lawyers, guns and money...the SHTF...

Tags for this Thread

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Quantcast