I hope you had a wonderful weekend and that you were able to relax and spend time with the family. I wish I could say that I spent my weekend at the shooting range, but right now I’m in Baltimore, MD on business.
That means when I go running in the morning I’m not carrying concealed and instead have to run with only my tactical pen. It will be nice to go home soon to a state that cares about self-preservation and not a state that wants to keep people unarmed (which is always a sign of a dangerous government.)
Since I didn’t go shooting yesterday I spent a lot of time reading and researching. And one topic that keeps popping up lately is how several law enforcement agencies are now switching back to the 9mm. The fact is, law enforcement in Minnesota, Iowa, South Dakota, and Colorado are just a few of the places switching.
Why is law enforcement switching from the .40 and .45 back to the 9mm?
Well, as one article I read stated about a police department in Sioux Falls, SD, “they’re trading in their .40 caliber handguns for 9mm pistols, citing lighter recoil and greater capacity…”
Yes, the 9mm has lighter recoil and yes you can carry more rounds in your magazine, but the main reason to switch is that due to advancements in bullet technology the stopping power of a 9mm is now about the same as a .40.
In other words, you’re really not losing anything by switching to the 9mm. I realize many people find that hard to believe and even if you showed them the tests that have proven the 9mm and .40 to be almost identical they still wouldn’t believe you.
But, as always, it comes down to shot placement.
If you shoot someone in the hand with a 9mm or .40 I imagine it’s not going to feel good, but it’s not going to kill them either. However, if you shoot them in the heart with a .40 or 9mm there’s little chance they’re going to survive.
Of course, another benefit of the 9mm is that it’s cheaper than the .40 or the .45. With budget cuts affecting law enforcement around the country it’s no surprise they’re looking to switch to cheaper ammo when it will do just as good of a job as the ammo they’re carrying now.
I’ve been carrying 9mm for years and have had plenty of “macho” folks comment to me that I carry a “weaker” round. However, my so-called “weaker” round is a 124-grain Speer Gold Dot, which I’m confident will stop any threat I may encounter. So if you’ve been thinking of switching to a 9mm, don’t let others talk you out of it and realize that many law enforcement agencies are now “seeing the light” and coming back to the 9mm too.
In fact, the only reason that the police switched from 9mm to .40 in the first place was because of the Assault Weapons ban of 1994. The 1994 law banned the production of high capacity magazines, however, you could still sell “pre-ban” magazines. So the gun manufacturers went to police departments and offered big incentives to upgrade to the .40 so they could get the departments to turn in the high capacity 9mm magazines that they could resell for a huge profit.
In other words, it wasn’t because the .40 was a miraculous new round, it’s because gun manufacturers wanted to make money and so they made the police departments an offer they couldn’t resist.
I have to disagree, with that statement. Yes 9 mm ammo is much better than is was, and has much better knock down than ammo of say 15 years ago, but that same ammo improvement also goes for the 40 and 45. I own a number of guns in each caliber, and for me personally, I’ll take the 45 first, 40 second and the 9 mm last. That doesn’t mean I dislike the 9 mm, I love it. The big difference in knock down power is stemmed from Ball ammo of each caliber, when shooting Ball ammo, bigger is better. So it really comes down to what you like, what you can handle in recoil, and how much ammo do you want to carry.
I have to agree. The .40 and .45 ammo has the same advances available. I’m sticking with my 7 shot .45. That’s plenty of shots for me.
* FRONT SIGHT * FRONT SIGHT * FRONT SIGHT *
I’ll stick to my 15 shot 9mm
hope you have good life insurance
For the most part Jason, I agree with you. But the advances in bullet design and ballistics in general won’t have too much of an effect on many of the law enforcement community since many (if not most) departments that supply the ammo to be used on duty do not allow hollow-point ammo. I know that a lot of them are moving forward with ammo that will stop an adversary and not have ‘over-penetration’ or ‘ricochet’ properties. I believe that the majority of those switching are doing it because of the financial dynamics… Budgets are a LOT tighter!
Good article!
jp that may be the case in departments in the east here in the south midwest and west we carry hollow point ammunition. Does someone in these areas know of a department that issues round nose duty ammunition?
ED, NONE in the US do. the risk of shooting through and through is too high… People on here do not know what they are talking about and are using military treaty requirement incorrectly. In WARFARE expanding ammunition is not allowed, in Civilian Law Enforcement it is REQUIRED, to prevent shooting through a perp and taking out an innocent
Dragon States fact.
Two factors in the Bottom line: 1. 9mm is cheaper for the Departments to supply.
2. 9mm is easier to train.
Regarding #2, the vast majority of cops are not ‘GUN People’. They carry because it’s a job requirement.
They don’t go to the range for fun. Only for Mandatory Qualifications. Most are doing good to know how to do a simple field strip for cleaning. So a mildly recoiling, dependable, poli 9mm makes sense to a lot of departments today. And don’t forget that a lot of today’s departments look at having an interest in firearms either a mental illness or as borderline criminal behavior. Even for those in their own ranks.
you too are spreading urban myth 9mm is no more or less expensive than .40 S&W as the departments use the STATE to do bulk purchasing at substantial savings ( re: bid submittals) as for ease of use? that too is just plain Bull being spread by inexperienced shooters. If an individual can not be trained to handle a .40 “short & weak” they should NOT be shooting hand guns. I’ve used all of the “popular” service pieces since 1977… this is pure BS at it’s finest, ad to go further the Author of the article should be ashamed for spreading it.
Right On drgon5126 way TOO much FYI out there web sites . This Author needs to pull his web site down
I live in NV and laugh at articles like this !
Any gun and caliber and a well placed shot will do, ask any Cop who trains out side the COP world Box , especially 3 gun ,IDPA
I compete against. PRACTICE IS KEY NOT HOW MANY ROUNDS
The Supply and demand has put 45 acp over the top as 40 and 9mm and 38 super & 38 special and the glorious 9mm luger FEAR factoring sales is the key to price gouging, the DHS and the Federalized Policed Nation Cop on the rise !now the led scare Muahahaha !
Bulk Buying has out paced small quantity’s of late Demand is the key of raw materials and Loading Machinery too.
The Guy says he is an ex CIA agent and Believes In CCW I do Not I am an avid OC in NV were legal. And can hide and flip open any garment to show open with out a problem. Ccw is a Con game period Conflict LOL come get some if you dare !
I’m Pushing for AZ Law, In NV for 2016. CCW as an Option regulating who owns a gun is wrong too,we have enough laws period enforce them we have a law to protect our guns from Obama look it up the law signed by Reagan the FFPA.
A reasonable God fearing man should not live in fear of his neighbor’s or strangers in America were sacrifice to give us Liberty and freedom reigns !
in 1989.. the President is Unconstitutional So All his Ex orders are Not Legal !
The Ex CIA Agent who writes articles for USA Carry is Suspect using his stature to sell and USA carry is another dup magazine on Line !
Open Carry is a catch-22 if you have an angry cop confronting you and the state you are in isn’t truly 2A compliant. Its too easy for “Officer Friendly” to write a concealed firearm citation because of his spouse’s cycle. I have the option of carrying in all 50 and territories as well as on flights and military bases, but still applied and received the State permit, simply to silence the handful of local bone heads who simply do not have a clue. You notice the poser, errr Author, is using this to try to sell a CCW course. I don’t know of any state that requires training, that accepts online courses. The guys whole story Smells like Obama’s breath… and we all know what he is full of. We do have a conundrum as far as sales go, in preventing sales to felons. We all, almost universally agree on no sales to felons. BUT NO reasonable American can justify stepping all over the rights of the innocent Citizens. WHY should I have to go through a background check to purchase what our Founding Fathers Stated outright that I am responsible to OWN? And to take it a step further, I’m going to divorce this argument from the Private Citizen and change it to the member of the National Guard, A reasonable and honest cop, or Federal Agent who became an Agent BECAUSE they BELIEVE in what the United States is SUPPOSED to Stand For?
No, Our so called elected representatives need to be stopped, their games ended and above all the PEOPLE need to be PROPERLY educated so that they can once again think for themselves. This thread is a prime example of how the people have lost the ability to apply critical thought processes. From the inability to see through flagrant falsehoods that are telegraphed by the use of improper vocabulary to individuals trying to claim to be what they are not and tripping themselves up over the inconsistencies in their own lies.
We are facing the problems we have because the PEOPLE are no longer able to think ahead and realize there are finite outcomes for a given set of actions. Perhaps Chess should be a mandated course of study starting in first grade and ending at graduation. At least people would then be taught to think ahead.
And some food for thought, there are a LARGE number of federal law enforcement agents, that are just waiting just as everyone else is for the right time to act. But until a real leader comes forward, just like everyone else, we too, would be nothing but a leaderless rabble. And we are NOT out to get our neighbors, friends and family, nor an other fed up Citizen, we too are part of the III%. BUT beware, NOT all of us are to be trusted.
You are going the correct direction Red Eye, Hang in there, you are NOT Alone!
your agreement with JPK proved your lack of knowledge already do yourself a favor, delete your posts, wait six months while you STUDY the TRUTH and come back perhaps by then people will have forgotten who you are…. Gotta run Your momma wants to get laid…
ALL departments are REQUIRED to supply ammo for liability issues. and this “NOT Hollow point” is pure fiction. IT is REQUIRED to be highly expanding Hollow Points to PREVENT over penetration. Law enforcement IS NOT Military where hollow points are prohibited. As for the budgets on ammo another point of Pure Fiction brought to you by the Koolaide purveyors
Law enforcement agencies have ammo go out of date, before it gets used up, they do not spend that much on ammo, it is in fact one of the lower cost items on their budget, well below auto fuel costs. Stop spreading this unsubstantiated myth, the fact is Most departments utilize the purchasing power of their STATE to generate extremely large orders at substantial savings.
hey poser law enforcement requires hollow points to prevent over penetration and risk to innocent bystanders. Law enforcement officers SHOOT TO KILL not wound. Military shoots FMJ due to treaty not common sense
YOU are a dumbfuck! LAW ENFORCEMENT REQUIRES HOLLOWPOINTS to prevent over penetration and risk to innocent bystanders. You are so full of shit we need to call a septic tank service to clean your posts out! Effing POSER! Only a MORON would agree with you!
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Sounds like your Unc Brayden is a Pimp and you are the Hooker!!! Take your SPAM somewhere else…HOOKER!!!!
I carry a 9mm in the summer when I would not be facing someone with a lot of intervening clothing. However, in the winter and spring, I stick to a .40 Glock 23 for better sectional density and mass. If the hollow point is clogged with down or hollow fill I prefer the 10 millimeter hole better than the 9mm. When the temperatures drop and people (even bad people) bundle up, bullet designs become less relevant.
, it wasn’t because the .40 was a miraculous new round.
I find all the arguing about 9mm, .40 and .45 to be hilarious. Greg Ellfritz did a study on the performance of all the popular defensive rounds, including .22, .25 and .32 and there wasn’t really much of a difference in the average number of shots required to stop the threat. Proving, of course, that it boils down to your ability to make consistent hits to vital organs. If you hit someone in the arm with a .45, his arm may break, or it may go straight through the flesh. Same thing with a .22. Put it where it counts, shoot him in the penis.
Thanks triggerpull! I actually train to deliver my first shots to the groin/lower abdomen because of the stop probability,faster time to target off the draw and the amount of blood loss and pain caused by it. I shoot to stop the threat, not wound, maim or kill.
POSER COMMENT… anyone who knows anything about shooting knows you shoot to kill or you don’t shoot at all
So let’s see, the 9mm is now equal to the 40 due to tech. advancements. Well then, the 40 should now be capable of being equal to the 45, right or maybe even a .357? Maybe it’s just a way to keep the economy rolling along producing stuff when it really isn’t necessary at all? Is a newly designed 9mm really doing anything better than say a 9mm from 10 years ago? Does the target (living that is) really notice the difference and react differently to being hit? I would sooner believe it is because most do not like shooting the 40 because of the recoil, just like most who own a 38/357 would most likely shoot 38’s the majority of the time. Sadly, if more and more go to the 9mm, then the price of the ammo will go up. In the past few months the price has dropped back from it’s high, but it is running between 25-40% more than it was for discounted 9mm a year ago and availability will remain in short supply. I used to be able to get 9mm around $10 to $13 a box, now it’s $15 to $17, unless you can find case prices and availability. Even then they are not running much less than $13 a box and good luck finding it. I just did a mulit-site search and found nothing under $15 and it was steel case : (
just like your comment isnt necessary
Why do you feel it was unnecessary? At least I shared some thoughts and factual price information, what did you share ?
his comment is more valid than yours
The answer is reload: cci primer 3.5 cents
4 grains tight group 2.5 cents
124 jhp from Montana Gold 10 cents (to get that price you must buy 2500)
You must buy reloading equipment, buy it lasts forever if you take care of it
Bottom line: 17 per round that works out to $8.50 per box, AND you get the satisfaction of personalizing your ammo, and you always have something to shoot. Oh and I pick up used brass at the range and reload that also.
No place to do reloading at this time, but I do save my brass. I know some small scale reload resellers that will exchange reloads for X amount of used brass. I have plenty of once used brass to barter with.
no do NOT reload. reloading is for hunting and target shooting. what control do you have over those primers before you bought them? was the highschool dweeb diddling them on the back room when the came in? was the box left on a damp concrete floor? Defensive ammo is process controlled all the way through the production start to finish,
I will agree with you that your defensive rounds should be high quality store bought rounds. I was referring as you noted reloads are good for hunting and target shooting. I like you want the best for my personal protection rounds. As a side not they do not last forever, I replace mine every 9 to 12 months.
you do As I do, and I make sure I am loading my practice ammo to the ballistic equivalent of my defensive ammo (bullet weight, velocity and point of aim) so that my reflexive shooting habits are not adversely impacted. I need to shoot my carry ammo to validate this, on a regular basis, so they never age out. I do one off reloading, get very anal and even have gone as far as weigh the brass and keep logs of it so I can spot check the loaded rounds. Obviously I don’t buy “guests'” comment about ever having any misfires on reloads but has on factory… 47 years is too long to have not thrown a bad round, that is unless he only loads 20 rounds a year.
While I use factory premium defensive ammo for carry I do reload for target, practice, and hunting ammunition. I can say that I have never had a misfire on any of my reloaded ammunition over the last 47 years. On the other hand I have had several misfires using run of the mill factory ammo. Maybe the dweeb never handled my primers.
Certainly, someone shot through the heart with either a .40 or a 9mm will die. However, lethality is, ultimately, not the issue. The ability to quickly stop an attack is. According to FBI data, the .40 S&W is a more effective one-shot fight stopper than the 9mm. The fact that the attacker eventually dies from the 9mm wound is of little significance if he can carry on his attack long enough to kill his victim first.
I believe lethality is the ultimate issue for police, every time they fire they seem to empty their magazine, that is more than stopping the threat.
this is due to the fact that they need to stop the threat as fast as possible. and even with a heart penetrated, if the assailant is loaded with adrenalin they will continue their assault until the brain dies.
sorry Jim but if the assailant is moving they haven’t stopped. therefore you shoot until they do.
BRAVO! (Not to be snide to you, but to the others who arent thinking) SOMEONE FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT! If an officer must shoot it MUST be to KILL IMMEDIATELY as this is the ONLY guaranteed stop. And so NOT come back with “shot placement” garbage, because you are NOT THERE… until you experience that adrenal dump, the loss of sharp eye focus that it causes due to eye dilation, the loss of fine motor control skills required for Shot Placement, You DO NOT KNOW nor have the experience to talk, this is why when there are officer involved shootings, THEY Empty their Magazines…
THIS ARTICLE IS NOT RELEVANT AS A SW40 IS HALF A 10MM ROUND THAT WAS PRODUCED BECAUSE OF WOMEN AND PUSSIES IN THE POLICE DEPT AND ELSEWHERE.. SO DO NOT TELL ME A 9MM IS BETTER THAN A 10MM OR 45. WHEN I AM IN DANGER I SHOOT TO KILL NOT MAIM.
Wrong… I hope you are a better informed voter than shooter,
the .40 S&W is 25% slower, than the 10mm which is a magnum class round. As such any situation that would cause “limp wristing” such as a gun shot wound, presents a very high probability of stovepiping on ejection no matter WHO is shooting it. And Drop the caps they make you look like an ignorant ranting redneck. BTW it was the FBI that dropped the 10mm shortly after trying it, and the PRIMARY reason the women were complaining, was not inability to shoot it, it was inability to properly conceal the large framed handgun as required under agency regulations. I was there when it happened, I was one of the range masters at Quantico at the time.
Hey Fella. Do us all a favor and avoid using the “women and pussies” crap since there are a good lot of women who read this blog for informational purposes (my wife included) and stuff like that does nothing to disparage your target and only makes women like my own wife think the average shooter is masoginistic redneck who thinks with his dick. Help us all out and don’t comment if that’s the crap you’re going to spew. Thanks. Oh, and drop the CapsLock.
Riz, dragon5126 is a true classic Neanderthal with computer skills. What is sad is he sometimes has a good point but it is so lost in his rude and obnoxious behavior. He is probably the local drunk who, while may be good for a few laughs and fun facts, quickly wears out his welcome everywhere he goes. Probably has been divorced at least 3 times too. Click on his profile and speed read his posts (over 1600, which means he is one lonely guy). He is most likely the neighbor everyone dreads living next to…..sad.
Whats the matter Stag, you cant handle that you are constantly be busted on your myths and fallacies? and as for my number of posts, you don’t like the fact that I;ve been on the site since it started? What is sad is that you feel so threatened that you have to go around trying to recruit people to your gutless castrata club.
Your honorable DRAGON5126, You are the greatest in the entire world! How is it that you don’t have your own TV and radio show by now? I wish I could just hang out with you all day long and drink in all the wisdom in your head. I feel honored and privileged that you even correspond with me! You are a genius, a gentleman in the most incredible poster I’ve ever read! Please don’t stop! More wisdom! More knowledge! I feel humbled being in your virtual presence. I am not worthy, I am not worthy…….
How do you know he doesn’t? If anything you are rather pathetic taking the name of a company that you don’t have the balls to represent…
hey fag arms, did dragon turn you down for a date again? You DO know hei snt gay like you, right?
No need to shout, Igray. The 10mm is a great, and highly underrated, cartridge, pretty much equivalent to the .41 Magnum, itself underappreciated. The .40 S&W was in fact a downloaded 10mm, due to both the intolerance to recoil of small-framed males and females, and also that the .40 S&W can be chambered in pistols of 9mm frame size, therefore increasing magazine capacity.
Just to info you: Swedish and Norwegian wildlife officers carry Glock 10mm pistols for protection against polar bears.
Not true at all. .40S&W is 10x23mm and 10mm auto is 10x25mm. “half a 10mm” would make the 10mm casing about the same length as a .308 casing. Would be very difficult to hold that gun in even my gigantic hands…
You really ARE stupid aren’t you, case capacity vs exterior case length are two entirely different things due to the case web and the seating depth of the projectile…
Also, the assertion about the gun manufacturers pushing .40 so they could get the 9mm high-capacity magazines is simple B.S., and is probably libel as well.
I’d say the push for .40 stemmed from the FBI’s adoption and agencies being fairly unhappy with the effectiveness of 9mm at the time…
The primary advantage to 9mm IMO is cost. Any time a choice is based mostly on cost there is inevitably talk of “just as good as…”
Practicing or just having fun with 9mm is one thing – I choose to carry something else.
once again for law enforcement there IS NO significant cost difference. they are not buying surplus ammo, old ammo or overstock ammo. They are also using the purchasing power of the state they are in, all 50 states in the nation offer municipal and county law enforcement departments the advantage of using the states contracts for bulk purchases of ammo to cut the prices substantially
For agencies, yes, cost is not so much a concern… that is not what I said. Cost _is_ a significant driver for individuals that purchase their own ammo and that is where a lot of the “just as good” talk on the net comes from.
.
the actual result of the FBI using the .40S&W was the result of the replacement of the ineffective 9mm being replaced by the overpowered 10mm being too large for proper concealment, too large for many agents hands, (which resulted in the rumor that many couldn’t handle the caliber). The physical size of the 9mm pistol was deemed ideal in that it fit the largest number of hand sizes so the push was for a caliber that would fit the frame size, with the closest ballistic capabilities of the 10mm hence the subsequent development of the .40 S&W
I believe that the only “thing” better is the powder. The case and projectile will remain the same for all calibers. Would like to see stats for powder burn from 10 years ago and today.
no. the projectile designs and the alloys and jackets are changing as well
that is totally irrelevant, if the powder supplies the same muzzle velocity and case pressures, there is literally no difference.
My Glock 30 gen 4 shoots like a 9, but the ammo is deff more $$$, so I practice a lot with my 17 or 19 or M9.
If a police dept. can buy 13 rounds of 9 for every 10 rounds of .40, it’s simple math. Budgets are wicked tight these days.
As far as the rest of the article, hey, it’s his opinion…stop ripping him up. If you don’t agree, you don’t have to flame him….I can go to Huffington Post for rude comments.
You can also move to china to suppress other peoples opinions. Do you think the local PD is using that much ammo? Particularly since they should not be holding duty ammo more than one to two years unless vacuum sealed at which it’s life it’s maximum recommended life is five years. Pistol qualifications are typically every three months, practice ammo is the officers responsibility not the departments
Really? Move to China? That is your response? Expressing YOUR opinion does not mean ripping into ANOTHER’S opinion. That is what children do. As far as local PD usage, yes, I DO know. I am on my cities Board of Finance, I see the budget, I am even w/ in ear shot of their range…the practice a lot, as they should. So I DO know what I am talking about wrt saving $$$ best a city/town can. We sw/ to Glock 17s just for that specific purpose. I helped get that motion through. Any other rants?
they pay for their own practice ammo over 30 rounds a month, SOP nationally as for your CITY’s board of Finance, they do not supervise the PD’s internal Budget, care to make up any OTHER lies? and as for telling someone to move to China, when THEY are the one who is attempting to suppress someone else’s statement, it is More valid than the falsehoods you are posting. You see a Municipality does NOT control the internal operation of the PD. It is a direct conflict of interest and is strictly prohibited to PREVENT low level self important scumbag municipal counsel members from trying to get out of tickets or other unlawful acts. Don’t you HATE it when you try to Lie to someone who knows the facts and calls you on it?
dragon5126, it’s sad, reading all of your post, you do have some valid points on many subjects. The problem is they are lost in you rudeness and an apparent inability to control yourself. If you can cut back on the caffein, Jack and possibly prescription drugs, maybe you can participate without sounding like a complete ass4ole.
what is sad is you proclaim that I am rude and cant control myself when I am stating simple fact and yet you resort to blatant juvenile insult perhaps it is you who is the asshole and cant handle it when one of your favorite fallacies is disproven, Grow the hell up . I live in the real world and don’t play your pretend games. I’m not an internet wannabe such as yourself.
Said the clown…
proof of the accuracy of my statement. twice over.
Your the best!
Dragon5126, I just want to point out that different states have different laws on how to handle police budget. What you said about 30 rounds is not true in Montana.
Wrong John. It is in fact very true. The officer is able to write the ammo off as a job expense and as such it costs both the department and tax payers LESS in the end . Montana set the example for the other states and they jumped on the bandwagon enmasse
said the coward who wont post a name
you ARE a clown GUEST….
Yep…..roger…..
Seems to me that his prescription hasn’t been filled in a while.
you and fag arms lovers?
hey fag arms. Dragon is posting facts you are posting fallacies… which is more pertinent?
” it’s maximum recommended life is five years.” Don’t know what you use to slay dragons with, But we were using ammunition dated in the 1940′ in Vietnam. You sound like the congressman who thought he had the solution to gun control. Place a ban on the manufacture of ammunition and within a year all of the ammunition in existence would be defective and of no use.
1940 you say, well we all know that’s a lie, I suggest you look at the calibers used and the dates the government started using them and start retracting your words real fast… In law enforcement we do not let ammo age out and we don’t make up ridiculous lies dumbass, the 7.62×51, and 5.56×45 were not military calibers in 1940 and the .45 acp had to be recontracted due to a shortage during the Korean war, Liars like you make REAL Vietnam Vets look bad, Can YOU Say STOLEN VALOR?
How does it feel being busted for posting bullshit and lies by someone you are claiming to be full of shit, when he even posts exactly WHY You are a blatant Liar?
You’re the perfect example of suppressing other people’s opinions. Fortunately, most people know BS when they see it. Why is it you insist you’re right while belittling others who have different views, but you won’t ever cite your sources? I gave you a like to be annoying.
Tricolor why are you riding Dragons ass so much, did he turn down your inappropriate attention and sexual advances? Thus far everything he has posted has been spot on, and it all has proven you to be a fool…
I enjoy .357 and 9MM as my pistol rounds of choice, I use the 9MM mainly for target practice for many of the reasons noted above, and I use my .357 as my concealed carry, I do practice with that also, but I prefer a revolver over a semi auto in life and death situation, no safety, no checking to see if I chambered a round, just pull, point, and shoot. I think it all comes down to personal preference.
Yes, the .45 ACP is more expensive, the 1911 is heavier and it only has a 7 or 8 round magazine. A hit from a 230 grain jhp or a 124 grain jhp will produce the same effect. In this modern world, quantity of rounds down range is more important than learning how to shoot in stressful conditions. The .45 has been battle proven in two world wars and several smaller “wars”. I normally carry a full size 1911 (concealed) or an Officers model of the 1911 and yes, I do own several 9’s they are fun to shoot, but if I have to bet my life on something, it will be with the .45.
You need to study TERMINAL BALLISTICS… And talk to any experienced deer hunter about the difference between a 150 gr bullet vs a 200 grain some time. Simply put, you are WRONG. The United States Military went BACK to the .45 Colt because the 158 grain .38 would not stop the Moros during the Philippine American war of 1899-1902. The 9mm is vastly underpowered compared to the .38 Colt they were using, by over 50% in overall power (terminal ballistics). You are arguing AGAINST proven historical FACT, virtually every one of you 9mm proponents need to re-educate yourselves. Our troops are coming home from overseas right now and supplying testimony that the 9mm is ineffective in combat, to the powers that be among the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Pentagon. Once again EDUCATE YOURSELVES, this doesn’t mean read it on the web, go buy a whole slaughtered undressed Hog and shoot it and dissect it and look for yourself. then put that nine away for teaching the kids to shoot or for target practice after you see how ineffective it really is.
A center mass hit with either will result in a fatality. That was my point.
Actually, no, James. Most handgun, and many rifle rounds, are quite survivable with a “center mass” hit, unless the major organs (heart, liver, spleen, and lungs, in that order) are severely damaged. With FMJ ammo, the round nose and slick surface of the bullet tend to “push” things out of the way.
Hollowpoints, due to their expansive qualities and jagged edges, tend to rip and tear tissue(s), increasing blood loss and imparting more trauma due to expenditure of maximum energy.
Elmer Keith was right; a large, relatively slow moving bullet, with sharp shoulders and of sufficient weight and hardness, is a sure stopper. His “Keith-type” .45 Colt and .44 Special bullets attest to this fact. Please read his works; I’m sure you’ll find it very interesting and extremely educational.
Tec you made one mistake, and that is the major organ listing. Liver and spleen hits can result in walking injured wounds your fatalities are in order Heart, Aorta Pulmonary Artery, Lungs, Spleen Liver. with the last three being dependent on the extent of the wound, which is based on CALIBER, projectile expansion and actual position of wound. The first three organs are obvious, they are high pressure circulatory organs. Death is only caused by shutting the brain down, and the brain supplies a target the size of a hard ball (region of fatality) that is in constant motion thanks to the neck. therefore the best way to induce death is cut off blood flow to the brain, which will first induce unconsciousness. Therefore you want to damage, to the greatest extent possible, the heart and the two major arteries associated with it, the Aorta and the Pulmonary artery. The Aorta is the artery that supplies blood to the entire body, and the Pulmonary artery is the major artery from the heart to the lungs. Opening any of the three and the blood will flow into the thorax, the larger the wound the faster the hemorrhage, the faster death ensues.
With the last three organs, with the exception of the arterial feeds you are dealing with massive quantities of smaller blood vessels… as such slower onset of fatality. And Only the pulmonary artery on the lungs can cause near instantaneous unconsciousness if hit, of these three… but that is part of the first three…
This brings us back to your comment about Elmer Keith, which is a truism but has to be updated as medical science has stepped a bit past him. The hardness and sharp shoulders as well as speed are not actually true, as the damage is all part of a balanced equation of sorts. There are three things that make a projectile fatal, Diameter, weight and speed. An automobile moving much slower than a bullet is certainly more deadly than a .429 diameter slug moving much faster, reason being that the weight and size spreads the impact across the entire body, and doesn’t even need to penetrate to kill. completely obvious, yet totally ignored in the ballistic world, but still 100% valid as an example Now that .429 44 caliber round lets say 240 grain vs a 120 grain .355 9mm lets push them at the same speed, 950 fps, forget energy figures its obvious the 44 is higher,,, but physical damage will be greater with the .44 due to size alone. however if we push that 9mm to 2500 fps, suddenly the damage it does can not be matched by the .44. WHY? it has been imparted with greater energy, Look at the 9mm vs the 357… only a .002″ difference in size, yet the .357 walks all over the 9mm due to greater energy levels slight weight increase but substantial speed difference. NOW the other flaw that has been proven in Keiths logic is the hardness of the projectile. He advocated hard lead. Hard cast is fine for revolvers and large bore rifles. And target shooting. BUT it tends to not expand as well as todays bonded soft lead, jacketed hollow points. Technology simply passed him up. This isn’t to remove the validity of his work, it just moves it to a limited area, that has been removed from the defensive shooting arena.
Now when we put the above information together, and look at the hard core facts about bullet diameters, speed and weight, and compare the 9mm and the .40, and make sure we are looking at identical bullet designs. It is literally foolish to even consider the slow and woefully, by comparison, under powered 9mm in ANY situation where you are shooting at a target where the target can shoot back. simply put, you don’t want to cut that Aorta or Pulmonary artery you NEED to shred it and shred it twice or preferably each of them once.
NO. a COM does NOT always result in fatality, it supplies the GREATEST PROBABILITY of fatality but guarantees NOTHING other than being the center of the target
Good post, James, but I must disagree on one point: “a hit from a 230 grain jhp or a 124 grain jhp will produce the same effect”.
As a retired military small arms expert, former cop, and certified firearms instructor, in addition to being one of great curiosity, I’ve conducted many informal tests of many types/calibers of handgun ammo. The one thing I’ve found for certain is that not all jhps expand ALL OF THE TIME. One must rely upon a 9mm hp to expand; I’ve never heard of a .45 ACP rounding shrinking.
Add to this the extremely reliability of lighter .45s, such as the 185 and 200 grain jhps at significantly higher (for a .45 ACP) velocity, and I can assure you that a 9mm will rarely, if ever, match the .45’s terminal ballistics.
I’ll rely on the physical fact that BIGGER is BETTER. Any added expansion in any caliber is only more good news. As to the mention of “reduced recoil” of 9mms in the article, I trained my daughter to shoot, and at 10 years old, she could handle the recoil of a .45 ACP 1911 very well. It’s all a matter of technique and training.
“Retired Military small arms expert” This part of your sentence made me laugh to a point where I could not take anything you said after seriously…. Let’s break it down. Only people who are in the Chair Force or CG say they’re ‘Military’ the rest of us are proud to be Marines, Army or Navy. Just a tip, you guys always try to slide by with that and we all see it a coming a mile away. Just be proud, you served, congrats.
2nd if I am correct, then you should think long and hard about combining those two together and serving that BS to the world where we can smell it. What exactly is a small arms expert in the military (especially CG or Air Force)? Don’t answer, I’ll save you the embarrassment… It doesn’t exist. The best units get private contractors to train us. Not broke down REMF re enlistees from not combat sectors of the military.
You may have been good at your base’s range and maybe gone as far a basic pistol instructor (and if it’s AF or CG, it meant you were really good at making gun noises holding those blue pistols) but you were not half as qualified as you’re attempting to sound here.
Former Cop? Cop, really? How disrespectful to the trade. This means two things: One, you weren’t a real LEO or you worked in some backwoods, POS, BFE dept with 6 of your inbred cousins who knighted each other to watch over the rest of your rotten genetic cesspool.
Lastly, a CFI? I actually believe that, because getting your CFI permit is about as hard as reading the back of a cereal box and proves that you know just about enough to not shoot yourself or your students. Doesn’t make you an expert at anything aside from the CFI process. Remember, those paper targets don’t shoot back bud.
Sorry if it was over the top and it seems like I targeted you, but Dragon5126 (Did you really choose ‘Dragon’ lol) actually takes the blue ribbon for Mall Ninja of the interwebz. He’s clearly past his prime and spouting ancient rhetoric that he manipulates in an attempt to disprove real studies, data and facts. He actually referenced Deer Hunting (which seeks the opposite result). You got some good info, but your god complex and lack of current information makes you irrelevant.
I am blown away at the comments in this thread and how loaded with mall ninjas this forum is. I will not speak for anyone else and tell you that I, myself carried an M9 in iraq and it did exactly what I needed it to do, serve as BACKUP to my 240G/M16/M4 (depending on which tour it was. The gov’t ammo is garbage, but if i pointed it at what i wanted to destroy and aimed and fired as I was trained to, the BG went down…. every single time. Also, no one here talks about SHTF scenarios where WE (not you) have to fire for cover or fire for movement. Yes, ill take 18 rds of 8 any day (and twice on sundays.) Don’t make the mistake of thinking this would not apply to a CONUS or WROL scenario as well.
Sure, we all came back wishing we had 45’s instead, but we also wish we had bigger dicks and HUMMVEE’s with A/C, etc so take it with a grain of salt. All you do from day one in boot camp till the day your retire/EAS is get spoonfed crap from pissed off old timers trying to stay relevant by telling you about how much better it was in the ‘Old Core.’ That included carrying 45’s and drinking whiskey in hot zones. I digress. I own a 1911 that I love very, very much, however when I train for keeps, it’s with my M&P9 which i take to tac courses etc for one very simple rule; it provides me the BEST compromise between penetration/tissue damage and round count. (* NOTE: I did not say stopping power) Essentially, I will be able to put more rounds, on target, faster, than you will with your .45. This is a fact, so put a muzzle on the dragon. In my not so humble experience, that is what wins gun fights. For every case you show me where a gunfight was won in 1 shot, I will give you 3 examples where it exceeded a min of 8 rounds.
We can target shoot all day and I will put 15+ rounds in the black faster than you will. Not because I’m awesome (I am pretty awesome, though), but I have less muzzle flip and can back on target faster and fire my next shot. Oh yeah, and you gotta reload. Good luck with that.
Oh and stop using “stopping power” you silly hicks. There is no such thing as “stopping power” when it comes to pistols.They disqualify each other and make you sound stupid. If you’ve ever had to breach and clear a room, defend a position or stand toe to toe with the BG, the last thing you think about is your sidearm. I’m grabbing an AR or Shotgun, you know the things LEO’s have mounted in their center console and the thing we train our Military on FIRST.
I don’t see any value to your community so I won’t be back to see the flame war this causes. Just please keep carrying those .45’s in case we do meet so I can take them from you and put them in my pack for when i run out of 9mm.
Do you always rant this way, or are you just off your meds?
If you in fact did serve, then you have my thanks. If not, GFYS.
You have no idea of my experience, qualifications, training or anything else. As such, just who in Hell are you to make such unfounded, unqualified judgments on me?
I am also quite well qualified with the M-16, M-4, combat shotgun (Mossberg 500/590 and Remington 870) plus several other weapons. Have you ever qualified on the M-1 Garand or carbine? Thompson SMG? UZI? MAC-10/11? H&K MP5SD? AK-47? AK-74? Must be a generational thing, youngster.
The big reason you NEED 15+ rounds in the 9mm M9 is that it is a very poor choice for personal defense. Talk to me when it’s been in service for 70+ years; there’s a reason the M1911 was, and it had nothing to do with “NATO standardization”.
I’ll defend your right to disagree; I will not defend your right(?) to be an arrogant, judgmental a$$hole.
Trollhunter = troll who hunts Your final paragraph proves this statement, your entire diatribe is bullshit, and you are a coward hiding behind a tagline name and spitting shit like this… You attack people who actually supply verifiable facts, Your trolling on that Dragon dude is amusing, as it seems your fixation is sexual, and your attempt to claim military experience is amusing to those who actually have it. We all know you are sitting by with your book of army terms close by waiting to come up with yet another name to fling uneducated insults under. Your father SHOULD have asked you mother for a refund, you shame him
If a change is being made it is being made because the economy of the 9mm is better. Advances in bullet design or components increase effectiveness accross the board. Speer Gold Dot bullets have been available since 1995, the 40 S&W since 1990. Law enforcement wanted to upgrade from the 38 Special revolver, (not the 9mm), when this began to happen some units adopted the 9mm and others adopted the new 40 S&W because it offered similar magazine capacity and slightly higher energy, law enforcement seemed standardize around the 40 for this reason and became the most popular duty option. Now that ammo costs have gone through the roof the 9mm is quite a bit more economical to shoot, although defensive ammunition costs are still fairly close. I don’t notice any recoil advantage for the 9mm over the 40 S&W, and most law enforcement agencies were exempted from the high capacity magazine ban. I was also under the impression that former law enforcement personnel could carry in every state as long as they met the adopted standards.
To be able to CCW as a retired LE officer under HR218 LEOSA, one has to have retired after 10 years or more of service, or have been retired due to a work related injury that left the officer disabled (after any probationary period was completed).
This is ONLY proposed and is NOT passed HR= House RESOLUTION it has to be an ACT to be a law
there is no economic difference. Law enforcement buys through the state in massive quantities in almost every instance, due to the ability to get massive price cuts.
I’ll keep all my 10’s
So now I know why it is so hard to find 9mm ammo and 40 is all over the place.
You might have indicated in your article that the 9mm 124 grain GoldDot you referenced is +P, so it has increased recoil over the standard 9mm, and the recall is on par with 40 and 45. Also, the article addressed the move from 40 to 9mm, but not from 45 to 9mm, so the issue of 45 ACP was not addressed.
he also only cited ONE department and NO agencies
If you think ammo is high priced now just wait until next year. The Regime’s EPA is forceing the only lead ore refining plant in the US to shut down Dec 31 permanetly. It would have required an impsossible standard requiring a 100 million dollar investment. Of course, we can ship ore to China or get some from Peru. They China would refine it and ship it back if were not fighting some country they support. Better get your lead and ammo now. Of course, China’s EPA is much more strict than ours. LOL
I see it as a matter of factoring Price on Ammo and fear factor Supply verse demand, But Please Read Guns &Ammo Latest Issue on the News of the detailed language off G&A Inside Information from a well known Ammo Manufacturing Company, The info will surprise you about lead Shortages.
I am sure the market place Price Gouging will take advantage of this situation.. What Eco Friendly Technology will replace Smeltering Lead out of the Ore Mined out of MO , Caustic Acids Like Copper gold and Silver ?
This has been proven to save energy and reduce Pollution Look west to AZ it has, when the last of the Copper Smelter’s went down in Silver City,N.M . and outside of Globe AZ in 06.
, it’s because gun manufacturers wanted to make money and so they made the police departments an offer they couldn’t resist.
Without Government permission you can’t made any 9mm or Syz.
WRONG carnflo… this isn’t the European union
And their quality control is the equivalent of a fart.
didn’t work out that way so far
well rich here it is a year later and prices HAVE Dropped… now you were saying?
There must have been a surplus of Ammo last year in the Cleveland police department. 10 or so cops emptied there guns into a van of 2 women. The women turned out to be unarmed. They had 140 bullet entrance holes in the vehicle
Get your story straight, this is completely wrong. There were NO two women in any VAN. Your reading comprehension and knowledge of current events leaves a lot to be desired.
I read the same thing in the trade news…
what did they shooting at?
the 10 or so cops should be taken of department, and taken to the range until they can hit what they are shooting at, 140 bullets come on.what scared them off target?????.i do not think 22- 9- 38- 40- 45-, would have mattered.i guess you had to be there !!
The story I read on yahoo news and also in a USA carry forum thread stated that it was a man and a woman, in their 20s who ran from police and were unarmed and had no illegal items in their vehicle. And yes, the cops murdered them. No reason for 12 officers to open up on them like that in a residential neighborhood for running a routine traffic stop.
Jason,
You are absolutely right. I have studied ballistics whether gel or water along with penetration and expansion. It seems like the 9mm is perfectly adequate and only minutely inferior to the 40; in fact, I would any day rather carry my Glock 19 and 16 rounds vs any .45 with half the rounds.
I often marvel at how people say stupid things like, you my as well have a steel frame 9 so you can hit him with it after you empty the magazine into him. THAT IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS AND NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BALLISTICAL REALITY. Gold Dots or HST’s are excellent rounds and will get the job.
Thank you for defending a great NATO round…..
Ballistical reality? you never studied ballistics… if you did you would know there is no such term as “Ballistical”…. face it you are so fecally filled everyone can smell it. The sad part is it simply detracts from those who MIGHT have a valid point to make for the 9mm
I don’t know which ballistics charts you’re looking at, but the .40 caliber round has it’s place because it is a higher velocity round with better penetration. I like the 9mm round too, but to suggest that the .40 cal is “equal” to the 9mm is just not what modern ballistics tests indicate.
Al, Send them to research the Philippine American War… Our troops went BACKWARDS to a single action .45 colt because the 158 grain .38 colt round wasn’t taking out the Moro warriors that were killing our troops. The fact is the 9mm is a LIGHT .355 caliber round and is ineffective, has been proven ineffective in Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan. it is an excellent semiauto target round, and a sweet caliber for a modern “pocket pistol” but as a full blown defensive round, it lacks. I could sit and write a full dissertation on the mechanics of death by GSW, and how the 9mm fails to be sufficient with out the ability to shoot a hard ball sized target that is swinging on an 18 inch string at 15 foot while running cross range, (this is the effective target scenario offered by the human brain) but too many here would not get it, I could also explain how to simulate the effects of an adrenalin dump and demonstrate that not a single person in this thread, myself included, is capable of the shot placement sub par caliber choices require. I have literally done this for thousands of trainees. but it all comes back to one thing you choose THE MOST CAPABLE caliber, and TRAIN with it until you can use it with out thinking about recoil, sight recovery, reloads or anything else, you just do it. And if you cant handle a .40, you cant handle a 9mm either.
Excellent points, dragon!
You may want to take what you hear from him with a grain of salt. When my last post makes it thru moderation, you’ll understand why.
yeah because WIKIPEDIA is a medical school, moron
wikipedia cites their sources, click the little blue numbers and it will take you to their bibliography page, most with web links.
BTW, since you’re the military uniform expert…you’d surely know that “tricolor” is a reference to the 3 color desert camouflage uniform, or DCU, for short. Wouldn’t you? Or are you just a flapping jaw?
tricolor is more of a poser term than a real reference to military service. and NOBODY calls it DCU except paintballers
Just for you a$$hole:
ju·ra·men·ta·do
/Spanish ˌhurɑmɛnˈtɑðɔ/ Show Spelled [Spanish hoo-rah-men-tah-thaw] Show IPA
noun, plural ju·ra·men·ta·dos /ˌhurɑmɛnˈtɑðɔs/ Show Spelled [hoo-rah-men-tah-thaws] Show IPA .
(formerly) a Muslim, especially a Moro, bound by an oath to be killed fighting against Christians and other infidels.
Origin:
< Spanish: literally, (one) sworn (past participle of juramentar to swear), equivalent to jurament- (< Late Latin jūrāmentum oath, equivalent to jūrā ( re ) to swear + -mentum -ment) + -ado -ate1
ten months later and it still didn’t make it through moderation be cause the moderators even recognize tricolor to be a habitual liar
The Moros also tightly bound their limbs and torsos to restrict bloodflow which enabled them to fight longer and harder. (For those who don’t understand my reference, the binding slowed blood loss and enabled the Moro warrior to remain on his feet longer. Many carried swords, imagine shooting a man 3, 4 times and he keeps coming and runs a sword through your stomach while you frantically try to reload your cylinder…) The bigger round was completely necessary, it took too long to bleed em out so they had to be knocked down.
sorry toady but your myth doesn’t hold water if you have any understanding of human physiology, If you came across this honestly, no insult intended, but if you are trolling take it with extreme contempt. You see the binding of the limbs and torsos would restrict the movements of the muscles under the bindings taking the bicep as an example if bound it could not contract, limiting it’s movement and the power the limited amount of movement would have. Likewise the torso would be limited preventing the full expansion of the chest, thereby preventing the lungs from full function further limiting their ability. The truth is the Moros were loaded up on opiates when entering battle and felt little pain and didn’t know when they were injured.
I see that the moderators chose not to allow my last post. lolz its ok. Just google the word “Juramentados.” You’ll find all you need about the limb binding acting as tourniquets, with source citations, at wikipedia and a few other sites.
The moderators know bullshit when they smell it
In the future, please refrain from making statements on topics that you know very little about. While you may be a source of great information regarding terminal ballistics and it is fun to watch you huff and puff when others disagree with your opinions, your knowlege of other subjects is very similar to that of a student majoring in Liberal Arts. Remember to read up on the subject of Juramentados! The wikipedia article includes several references to the limb binding, which by the way, is still a tactic used today. And yes, they did hop themselves up on drugs. The army is coming out with a new uniform with a built in tourniqet system soon! The French Foreign Legion already incorporated it into the FELIN system. (Whether or not they still use it, I do not know.) Wonder where they got that idea from??
how about in the future you refrain from talking bullshit? plain enough for you? As for Wikipedia, anyone with half a brain knows it isn’t a reliable source of information. hell the army has been issuing BDUs with tourniquets for several years now I have five sets myself. and binding is not a tactic that is used anywhere. Had you any real knowledge of human physiology you wouldn’t be trying to impress yourself by supporting the crap you posted, As for your stupid Idea that Tourniqets are comparable to the effects of what you describe as the equivalent to a modern pressure suit is probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard since some moron said “you can keep your policy”… You are dismissed.
Staying on topic…even though the Army hasn’t issued BDUs since 2006, when they began issuing ACUs, which I also have many sets of, most of them with ripstop name tape, with *gasp!* MY name on them!
Since what you’re basically saying is that binding the limb(tying fabric around it to slow blood flow) is not working as a tourniquet, even though that’s what a tourniquet does…explain to me how they work. Your opinion contradicts medical science and I fail to see how your opinion could be construed as fact since it is just an opinion with no scientific or valid medical basis to it. That’s why it is called an “opinion.”
Simple fact is, a tourniquet can be made from a piece of cloth. You tie it around the limb between the wound and the heart and it slows the blood loss so you can work on closing the wound with a cleaner work area and less blood loss. Moros didn’t care about closing the wound, they only cared about slowing blood loss enough to delay death for a few seconds, minutes, moments, so they could ram a sword ,knife etc through the enemy and kill him. Stopping to tie a tourniquet after being wounded was not essential to their mission since their mission was to kill until killed and they were more likely to bleed out or be finished off with a follow up shot or bayonetted, so they bound (tied) their limbs and torso in advance. To kill the enemy was to enter paradise in their beliefs, so that’s what the whole goal was: kill the enemy until the Moro himself was killed. Now please be kind enough to explain to me how a suicide warrior who ties his limbs, which we all know frequently get hit in battle, would be doing nothing when the US Army Historical Society notes that the tactic worked amazingly well and troops suffered losses and terrifying wounds as a direct result of that tactic.
Or better yet, just shut up and wrap a rubber band around your finger and note that it begins to darken and turn purple as the blood flow is slowed and some blood gets through but some stays behind and loses oxygen to the surrounding tissue (which is why it looks purple in the first place) but you can still wiggle your f’in finger. If you’d just shut your mouth every once in a while and stop trying to convince everyone that you’re an expert on absolutely every damn thing on earth, you might learn something.
Moron the name of the camouflage used does not change the fact that they are still cataloged as BDUs It is you that needs to STFU. your lies are pathetic, you supply no corroborating facts and you are nothing but a mouthpiece for the mentally challenged. When you are proven wrong you turn to insults
Idiot the reason the finger looks purple is trapped blood not the use of O2. were it due to O2 consumption it would turn BLUE due to cyanosis most specifically at the nail, YOU are without a doubt the most stupid wannabe there is on this thread
Poser, As an expert on human physiology I can verify his comment is spot on. and YOU are full of shit Bound Limbs would not stop bleeding from center of mass hits, Further a heavy round does NOT knock the target down, it just imparts more internal damage. Its sad that you are too stupid to see how your comments display how poorly you lie.
Hey asshole lair… You still haven’t posted a single factual argument supporting ANYTHING you have said to date. all you have done is tried to slander Dragon, and he still kicked your ass with verifiable facts… You DO know the French Foreign Legion has been disbanded decades ago, don’t you? All it is now is a bunch of money grubbing mercs. you know mercenaries… Soldiers without countries or alliegance? you with me here? effing stupid poser…
Uh, dragon5126, the 9x19mm rounds is perfectly fine and effective. You’re talking about BATTLEFIELD CONDITIONS, where Full Metal Jacket ammunition is used. LAW ENFORCEMENT CONDITIONS render your argument about Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan invalid, as law enforcement officers carry Jacketed Hollow Point ammunition, which is much more effective in putting down a threat.
“And if you cant hand a .40, you cant handle a 9mm ether.” – Uh, what? 9mm has a lighter load, and is more controllable. Furthermore, LE agencies are showing firearms chambered in .40S&W are wearing much faster than any 9x19mm chambered variant. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather a DEFENSIVE FIREARM that has less likelihood of having a stoppage or malfunction over a pistol that makes a bigger bang and has bigger entry holes that don’t make much of a difference after the round begins expansion in the body…
You are clearly showing that you didn’t even read the report by your reply.
Six, you need to start covering yours, and learning the facts, The first one is you virtually can not differentiate between the 9, 40 or 45 when shooting them in a firefight as the adrenaline in your blood stream will have taken over and tightened all the voluntary muscle groups in your body, And it is very obvious that you have never “played in the sand box” as your commentary is pure armchair warrior and nothing more. As for the wear on 40s vs 9mm? Pure invented bullshit being spread by those such as you who can not supply viable arguments and must stoop to inventing lies to make themselves feel better. The fact of the matter is the structural differences between the caliber firearm negates any wear difference what so ever. The stoppage differences only apply to those who fear the larger caliber and limp wrist it, resulting it a stove pipe. It is once again obvious that it is YOU that doesn’t know what they are talking about, and quite frankly it appears you stick with the 9mm simply because YOU cant handle anything else. That is simply a matter of either bad or lack of training. Its time for you to stop blaming your faults on everyone else, after all, your name isn’t Barack Obama, or is it?
and that’s with ball not hollow point I personally carry 9mm in my carry and the jframe backup both use 9mm . primary concern is cost also brand is hornady XTP both zombie loads and American gunner both hornady HP . also use zombie loads in my 45 when I carry that.
if cost is the primary concern why do you carry the MOST EXPENSIVE ammo that is more expensive than .40S&W that it is equal to but costs half as much? sounds to me that you are just full of bullshit and don’t know what you are talking about.
depends on whether you use ball or hollow point for normal carry o choose hollow point. ball on all calibers for range shooting is cheaper.yes for my daily carry I use hornady hollow point. and range shooting I get ball in bulk when its on sale. like 1000 rnd for 200 bucks. like tul ammo or wulf and they have so far worked in my guns with no problem. but again for carry I want reiliability and I consider it check when I have gotton the hotnadys on sale for 15.00 for 25 rounds which can go up to 29 dollars for a box.
since I spent 20 years in the army and a qualified on both the colt 45 and the baretta 9mm platforms I prefer the 45 but the m9 will do to. remember the military used ball ammo.
The Military is currently looking to replace the 9mm because it s an inferior round, limited power being the issue. They don’t want to go back to the .45 due to limited magazine capacity and the double stacks don’t fit every hand. And the number of uninformed shooters has influenced the choices away from the .40. If the Pentagon had people with any real intelligence they would go to a double stack, double action version of the 1911, yes the trigger system is different, but the assembly, field stripping, barrel lockup and other features have proven superior to other designs including the Beretta, and the excuse of being to hard to shoot is pure nonsense, as this is simply a matter of training, as the round does not recoil any worse than a .357 magnum, which NO police department ever had an issue with for the decades they were issued.
Holy shit! Battlefield targets are usually wearing soft or hard body armor. Of course 9x19mm is ‘inferior’ to an armored target. There’s only two pistol calibres rated to go toe-to-toe against body armor, and that’s 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm. Besides, military use FMJ ammunition, while law enforcement uses JHP ammunition. There’s a HUGE difference between the types of incident conditions, and it’s horses for courses.
Its really sad that you don’t have a clue. We have NOT fought ANY military that has utilized ANY form of body armor since switching to the 9mm, And the fact is the pentagon is complaining about it’s performance against the Muslim jihadists who are not even true military opponents, And then you are trying to mix arguments of hollow points vs fmj? This just proves that you are an open mouthed idiot without a clue… Go read a book and get an education!
Are you fucking dense? Did you not read a fucking thing I said? The military is bound by the Rules of War to not use Jacketed Hollow Point ammunition, so of fucking course they need a round with ‘more stopping power’. This is about LAW ENFORCEMENT, you dunce. 9×19 JHP rounds 124gr or higher is more than enough to down an offender. I speak from experience, champ. I’ve used Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr and moved to Federal HST. This ammunition will stop a threat in its tracks if you get the rounds on target, which this report outlines that 70-80% of rounds fired by LEOs miss, therefore more magazine capacity is a win. Are you quite finished making a dick of yourself?
The problem is I DID READ IT, BUT YOU NEVER USED YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU WROTE IT! You have ZERO experience in shooting anyone, you are a total moron as you are screaming about things that I didn’t even address. The fact is the 9mm is ineffective against people NOT wearing body armor. Period. This has been proven by the Pentagon since its adoption of the 9mm, in EVERY conflict we have fought since, Particularly since we have NOT fought anyone who issued ANY form of body armor PERIOD. NEXT FMJ ammo has greater penetration than hollow points, YET the 9mm is failing to adequately penetrate the clothing of the Muslims it is being used against. And finally YOU have NOT used ANY ammunition in real world scenarios, JUST punching paper. IF THAT. How do I know this? One of my particular skill sets is interrogation, and YOU are an effing liar, and telegraph it with every sentence. You have let your anger at being proven WRONG control you and bring out the fact that YOU are a fraud… Ammo capacity is an argument used by those who claim they have the biggest dick, The problem is they need to spit it out to continue arguing. Get the message?
I hope your “interrogation” skills are better than your comprehension skills, buddy. You’re dead wrong about me. I’m well and truly aware about penetration levels between FMJ and JHP rounds. I’m also well aware about clothing versus projectiles. For the four occasions I have shot people with my 9mm sidearm in Afghanistan as a security contractor, I used JHP rounds and each round penetrated, and took down the target with ease. Don’t come beating your fucking chest at me like a big bad boy you think you are when you you’re nothing but a packrat fanboy. There is absolutely ZERO NEED for any more than 9x19mm in law enforcement. End of transmission.
speaking of comprehension, you need to learn to comprehend what you are saying so that you can stop contradicting yourself all the time. Next as a contractor you would have had your hands full with an M4, so if you had to use a side arm you were incompetent and would have been removed after the first incident and your comment about the ammo used, You would have been turned over to the Afghani Military for prosecution of war crimes, which even possessing anything other than FMJ ammo in a warzone is called for. Now that you busted yourself out as a Liar and poser, Stop posting, Eazyboy.
funny how when the truth hits home and they know they cant talk their way out of it they don’t even have the balls to admit they are liars…
There is also not much difference between the .40 and .45 acp round, in some instances. For example, The .40 Remington Golden Saber 165gr. runs out at about 1,150 fps. In comparison, the 185 gr. Remington Golden Saber in .45 acp (11.4mm) +P rounds the chrono at about 1,140 fps. For a 10fps difference, I’ll stick to my 11.4mm, thank you.
Do I care more about FPS or impact energy? Most 40’s pack more energy than a 9mm +P and even more than 45’s unless they are +P. Comparing Golden Saber at the Remington website, the 185gr 45+P has more impact and the velocity is about the same as 165gr 40; however they used a 5″ barrel on the 45 and only a 4″ on the 40, which will make a difference. I like 45’s too, but I usually carry an MK40 or 45 w/4″ barrel. As the majority of us realize, the best choice is the one you shoot well and are also comfortable carrying.
Well said, however training can over come the carry and shooting issues, The ,40 was designed ground up to utilize the smaller “9mm class” frame, well supplying.45 acp performance with greater magazine capacity, without compromising the shooters ability to properly grip it. This is why it literally took over the shooting arena so rapidly.
without the increased velocity, the lighter round doesn’t have the energy the heavier round has, so if you don’t care about it you are exceedingly foolish. If you cant shoot properly with the higher energy round, you need to learn and practice. its that simple.
How many rounds are in the two different magazines? THIS is the primary difference. The .40 delivers similar terminal ballistics, to the .45 due to the higher velocity, given equal class ammo. it also supplies 75% more rounds than the .45 in a frame equal in size to the 9mm, allowing a greater number of shooters to use a higher power handgun that has a recoil pulse that is less than 10% more than the 9mm, and in most cases, less than 5% more. (btw the .45 is classified 11.5mm)
In Most instances is a better statement, However there is One vital difference, magazine capacity vs concealability. Double stack .45s tend to have excessively large/long grip frames to get beyond the ten round limit that is looked for in defensive firearms. Terminal performance can be adjusted between the .40 and the .45, but the 9mm can only be brought up to the base performance of the 40 AT BEST, due to the limited case capacity, limited over all length and taper of the case itself. These are physical facts that proponents of the 9mm always forget
My feeling is this: if you train for SHTF situations, or in really cold weather, I would keep a 45 handy. If you 1) don’t have a lot of time to train, 2) don’t do well with small weapon/45 recoil, or 3) prefer to have more rounds in your mag, go with a polymer tipped hollow point 9mm. Being comfortable with a weapon and having it when you need it trumps all arguments.
That last sentence kinda trumps your first one huh?
I prefer my 10 mm colt. If i run out of ammo I can beat the sh*t out of them with 5 lbs of cold steel, ha ha.
After buying and shooting my SR 9c 9MM regularly, the conversion from using a .40, .45 or any other one of my guns as the preferred carry gun, was almost immediate. I’m faster, more accurate, more consistent, more comfortable the 9MM.
WHAT a BUNCH OF BULL all the way through… ONE Department does not “agencies” Make! AND that cite of the assault weapons Ban being the cause of the departments going to the 40? TOTAL BULL since Law Enforcement was exempt to begin with. The FACT is WE went to the .40S&W Because of the excessive number of failures of the 9mm to effectively stop armed assailants. You and all the people who have never spent the extensive hours in combat, and have not attended the postmortems, where proper placement was used and the damage inflicted was NOT sufficient to stop an advancing assailant. It is gone on for long enough. Too many arm chair experts commenting without the experience to blow their own Noses. I have to question this “former officer’s” credentials based on three things: its an AGENCY, it has agents,,, his age, being former means he didn’t make it and washed out FAST, and
I’ve Been through the program and you WILL NOT see me posting my name publicly
TO DRAGON 5126 YOUR REPLY WITH NAME CALLING IS VERY IMMATURE AND BRAGGING ALSO NOT GOOD. I DO HAVE A NEWS FLASH THAT MANY FBI AGENTS STILL USE THE 10MM. AS FAR AS YOUR TITLE MAYBE IT IMPRESSES SOME BUT I WOULD HAVE TO SEE YOU SHOOT IN A STRESS SITUATION TO MAKE A JUDGEMENT. HAVE A GOOD DAY.
Name calling? there was no name calling I simply stated fact. And you state Lies. Agents are prohibited from using anything but issued arms there are only two calibers issued 45acp to tac units and .40 S&W to all armed agents, so take your lies and crawls away
TO DRAGON 5126 AGAIN. IN REREADING YOUR REPLY I CAN SEE YOU DON’T KNOW THE S&W 10MM WOULD NOT HANDLE THE AMMO AND THE RECEIVER WOULD CRACK. HENCE THE POLITICS OF THE 40 S&W. IF SHOOTERS WOULD HAVE WENT TO A GLOCK MODEL 20 THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPIER. PERSONALLY I PREFER THE 7.62X25 WHICH CAN DEFEAT MOST BODY ARMOR.