Why Many Agencies are Switching to the 9mm

Why Many Agencies are Switching to the 9mm

Why Many Agencies are Switching to the 9mm

I hope you had a wonderful weekend and that you were able to relax and spend time with the family. I wish I could say that I spent my weekend at the shooting range, but right now I’m in Baltimore, MD on business.

That means when I go running in the morning I’m not carrying concealed and instead have to run with only my tactical pen. It will be nice to go home soon to a state that cares about self-preservation and not a state that wants to keep people unarmed (which is always a sign of a dangerous government.)

Since I didn’t go shooting yesterday I spent a lot of time reading and researching. And one topic that keeps popping up lately is how several law enforcement agencies are now switching back to the 9mm. The fact is, law enforcement in Minnesota, Iowa, South Dakota, and Colorado are just a few of the places switching.

Why is law enforcement switching from the .40 and .45 back to the 9mm?

Well, as one article I read stated about a police department in Sioux Falls, SD, “they’re trading in their .40 caliber handguns for 9mm pistols, citing lighter recoil and greater capacity…”

Yes, the 9mm has lighter recoil and yes you can carry more rounds in your magazine, but the main reason to switch is that due to advancements in bullet technology the stopping power of a 9mm is now about the same as a .40.

In other words, you’re really not losing anything by switching to the 9mm. I realize many people find that hard to believe and even if you showed them the tests that have proven the 9mm and .40 to be almost identical they still wouldn’t believe you.

But, as always, it comes down to shot placement.

If you shoot someone in the hand with a 9mm or .40 I imagine it’s not going to feel good, but it’s not going to kill them either. However, if you shoot them in the heart with a .40 or 9mm there’s little chance they’re going to survive.

Of course, another benefit of the 9mm is that it’s cheaper than the .40 or the .45. With budget cuts affecting law enforcement around the country it’s no surprise they’re looking to switch to cheaper ammo when it will do just as good of a job as the ammo they’re carrying now.

I’ve been carrying 9mm for years and have had plenty of “macho” folks comment to me that I carry a “weaker” round. However, my so-called “weaker” round is a 124-grain Speer Gold Dot, which I’m confident will stop any threat I may encounter. So if you’ve been thinking of switching to a 9mm, don’t let others talk you out of it and realize that many law enforcement agencies are now “seeing the light” and coming back to the 9mm too.

In fact, the only reason that the police switched from 9mm to .40 in the first place was because of the Assault Weapons ban of 1994. The 1994 law banned the production of high capacity magazines, however, you could still sell “pre-ban” magazines. So the gun manufacturers went to police departments and offered big incentives to upgrade to the .40 so they could get the departments to turn in the high capacity 9mm magazines that they could resell for a huge profit.

In other words, it wasn’t because the .40 was a miraculous new round, it’s because gun manufacturers wanted to make money and so they made the police departments an offer they couldn’t resist.

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  • Joey

    I have to disagree, with that statement. Yes 9 mm ammo is much better than is was, and has much better knock down than ammo of say 15 years ago, but that same ammo improvement also goes for the 40 and 45. I own a number of guns in each caliber, and for me personally, I’ll take the 45 first, 40 second and the 9 mm last. That doesn’t mean I dislike the 9 mm, I love it. The big difference in knock down power is stemmed from Ball ammo of each caliber, when shooting Ball ammo, bigger is better. So it really comes down to what you like, what you can handle in recoil, and how much ammo do you want to carry.

    • Douglas Moore

      I have to agree. The .40 and .45 ammo has the same advances available. I’m sticking with my 7 shot .45. That’s plenty of shots for me.

      * FRONT SIGHT * FRONT SIGHT * FRONT SIGHT *

      • Ed

        I’ll stick to my 15 shot 9mm

        • dragon5126

          hope you have good life insurance

  • JPKirkpatrick

    For the most part Jason, I agree with you. But the advances in bullet design and ballistics in general won’t have too much of an effect on many of the law enforcement community since many (if not most) departments that supply the ammo to be used on duty do not allow hollow-point ammo. I know that a lot of them are moving forward with ammo that will stop an adversary and not have ‘over-penetration’ or ‘ricochet’ properties. I believe that the majority of those switching are doing it because of the financial dynamics… Budgets are a LOT tighter!
    Good article!

    • Ed

      jp that may be the case in departments in the east here in the south midwest and west we carry hollow point ammunition. Does someone in these areas know of a department that issues round nose duty ammunition?

      • dragon5126

        ED, NONE in the US do. the risk of shooting through and through is too high… People on here do not know what they are talking about and are using military treaty requirement incorrectly. In WARFARE expanding ammunition is not allowed, in Civilian Law Enforcement it is REQUIRED, to prevent shooting through a perp and taking out an innocent

      • Scott Esse

        Dragon States fact.

    • zeprin

      Two factors in the Bottom line: 1. 9mm is cheaper for the Departments to supply.
      2. 9mm is easier to train.

      Regarding #2, the vast majority of cops are not ‘GUN People’. They carry because it’s a job requirement.
      They don’t go to the range for fun. Only for Mandatory Qualifications. Most are doing good to know how to do a simple field strip for cleaning. So a mildly recoiling, dependable, poli 9mm makes sense to a lot of departments today. And don’t forget that a lot of today’s departments look at having an interest in firearms either a mental illness or as borderline criminal behavior. Even for those in their own ranks.

      • dragon5126

        you too are spreading urban myth 9mm is no more or less expensive than .40 S&W as the departments use the STATE to do bulk purchasing at substantial savings ( re: bid submittals) as for ease of use? that too is just plain Bull being spread by inexperienced shooters. If an individual can not be trained to handle a .40 “short & weak” they should NOT be shooting hand guns. I’ve used all of the “popular” service pieces since 1977… this is pure BS at it’s finest, ad to go further the Author of the article should be ashamed for spreading it.

        • Red Eye Trucker !!

          Right On drgon5126 way TOO much FYI out there web sites . This Author needs to pull his web site down
          I live in NV and laugh at articles like this !
          Any gun and caliber and a well placed shot will do, ask any Cop who trains out side the COP world Box , especially 3 gun ,IDPA
          I compete against. PRACTICE IS KEY NOT HOW MANY ROUNDS
          The Supply and demand has put 45 acp over the top as 40 and 9mm and 38 super & 38 special and the glorious 9mm luger FEAR factoring sales is the key to price gouging, the DHS and the Federalized Policed Nation Cop on the rise !now the led scare Muahahaha !
          Bulk Buying has out paced small quantity’s of late Demand is the key of raw materials and Loading Machinery too.
          The Guy says he is an ex CIA agent and Believes In CCW I do Not I am an avid OC in NV were legal. And can hide and flip open any garment to show open with out a problem. Ccw is a Con game period Conflict LOL come get some if you dare !
          I’m Pushing for AZ Law, In NV for 2016. CCW as an Option regulating who owns a gun is wrong too,we have enough laws period enforce them we have a law to protect our guns from Obama look it up the law signed by Reagan the FFPA.
          A reasonable God fearing man should not live in fear of his neighbor’s or strangers in America were sacrifice to give us Liberty and freedom reigns !
          in 1989.. the President is Unconstitutional So All his Ex orders are Not Legal !
          The Ex CIA Agent who writes articles for USA Carry is Suspect using his stature to sell and USA carry is another dup magazine on Line !

          • dragon5126

            Open Carry is a catch-22 if you have an angry cop confronting you and the state you are in isn’t truly 2A compliant. Its too easy for “Officer Friendly” to write a concealed firearm citation because of his spouse’s cycle. I have the option of carrying in all 50 and territories as well as on flights and military bases, but still applied and received the State permit, simply to silence the handful of local bone heads who simply do not have a clue. You notice the poser, errr Author, is using this to try to sell a CCW course. I don’t know of any state that requires training, that accepts online courses. The guys whole story Smells like Obama’s breath… and we all know what he is full of. We do have a conundrum as far as sales go, in preventing sales to felons. We all, almost universally agree on no sales to felons. BUT NO reasonable American can justify stepping all over the rights of the innocent Citizens. WHY should I have to go through a background check to purchase what our Founding Fathers Stated outright that I am responsible to OWN? And to take it a step further, I’m going to divorce this argument from the Private Citizen and change it to the member of the National Guard, A reasonable and honest cop, or Federal Agent who became an Agent BECAUSE they BELIEVE in what the United States is SUPPOSED to Stand For?
            No, Our so called elected representatives need to be stopped, their games ended and above all the PEOPLE need to be PROPERLY educated so that they can once again think for themselves. This thread is a prime example of how the people have lost the ability to apply critical thought processes. From the inability to see through flagrant falsehoods that are telegraphed by the use of improper vocabulary to individuals trying to claim to be what they are not and tripping themselves up over the inconsistencies in their own lies.
            We are facing the problems we have because the PEOPLE are no longer able to think ahead and realize there are finite outcomes for a given set of actions. Perhaps Chess should be a mandated course of study starting in first grade and ending at graduation. At least people would then be taught to think ahead.
            And some food for thought, there are a LARGE number of federal law enforcement agents, that are just waiting just as everyone else is for the right time to act. But until a real leader comes forward, just like everyone else, we too, would be nothing but a leaderless rabble. And we are NOT out to get our neighbors, friends and family, nor an other fed up Citizen, we too are part of the III%. BUT beware, NOT all of us are to be trusted.
            You are going the correct direction Red Eye, Hang in there, you are NOT Alone!

      • Scott Esse

        your agreement with JPK proved your lack of knowledge already do yourself a favor, delete your posts, wait six months while you STUDY the TRUTH and come back perhaps by then people will have forgotten who you are…. Gotta run Your momma wants to get laid…

    • dragon5126

      ALL departments are REQUIRED to supply ammo for liability issues. and this “NOT Hollow point” is pure fiction. IT is REQUIRED to be highly expanding Hollow Points to PREVENT over penetration. Law enforcement IS NOT Military where hollow points are prohibited. As for the budgets on ammo another point of Pure Fiction brought to you by the Koolaide purveyors
      Law enforcement agencies have ammo go out of date, before it gets used up, they do not spend that much on ammo, it is in fact one of the lower cost items on their budget, well below auto fuel costs. Stop spreading this unsubstantiated myth, the fact is Most departments utilize the purchasing power of their STATE to generate extremely large orders at substantial savings.

    • dragon5126

      hey poser law enforcement requires hollow points to prevent over penetration and risk to innocent bystanders. Law enforcement officers SHOOT TO KILL not wound. Military shoots FMJ due to treaty not common sense

    • Scott Esse

      YOU are a dumbfuck! LAW ENFORCEMENT REQUIRES HOLLOWPOINTS to prevent over penetration and risk to innocent bystanders. You are so full of shit we need to call a septic tank service to clean your posts out! Effing POSER! Only a MORON would agree with you!

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    • marshallbrinson

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  • Sivispace

    I carry a 9mm in the summer when I would not be facing someone with a lot of intervening clothing. However, in the winter and spring, I stick to a .40 Glock 23 for better sectional density and mass. If the hollow point is clogged with down or hollow fill I prefer the 10 millimeter hole better than the 9mm. When the temperatures drop and people (even bad people) bundle up, bullet designs become less relevant.

    • Anthony James

      , it wasn’t because the .40 was a miraculous new round.

    • tricolordad

      I find all the arguing about 9mm, .40 and .45 to be hilarious. Greg Ellfritz did a study on the performance of all the popular defensive rounds, including .22, .25 and .32 and there wasn’t really much of a difference in the average number of shots required to stop the threat. Proving, of course, that it boils down to your ability to make consistent hits to vital organs. If you hit someone in the arm with a .45, his arm may break, or it may go straight through the flesh. Same thing with a .22. Put it where it counts, shoot him in the penis.

      • tricolordad

        Thanks triggerpull! I actually train to deliver my first shots to the groin/lower abdomen because of the stop probability,faster time to target off the draw and the amount of blood loss and pain caused by it. I shoot to stop the threat, not wound, maim or kill.

        • Scott Esse

          POSER COMMENT… anyone who knows anything about shooting knows you shoot to kill or you don’t shoot at all

  • Smithkowitz

    So let’s see, the 9mm is now equal to the 40 due to tech. advancements. Well then, the 40 should now be capable of being equal to the 45, right or maybe even a .357? Maybe it’s just a way to keep the economy rolling along producing stuff when it really isn’t necessary at all? Is a newly designed 9mm really doing anything better than say a 9mm from 10 years ago? Does the target (living that is) really notice the difference and react differently to being hit? I would sooner believe it is because most do not like shooting the 40 because of the recoil, just like most who own a 38/357 would most likely shoot 38’s the majority of the time. Sadly, if more and more go to the 9mm, then the price of the ammo will go up. In the past few months the price has dropped back from it’s high, but it is running between 25-40% more than it was for discounted 9mm a year ago and availability will remain in short supply. I used to be able to get 9mm around $10 to $13 a box, now it’s $15 to $17, unless you can find case prices and availability. Even then they are not running much less than $13 a box and good luck finding it. I just did a mulit-site search and found nothing under $15 and it was steel case : (

    • sthomper

      just like your comment isnt necessary

      • 2ThinkN_Do2

        Why do you feel it was unnecessary? At least I shared some thoughts and factual price information, what did you share ?

      • dragon5126

        his comment is more valid than yours

    • Jim

      The answer is reload: cci primer 3.5 cents
      4 grains tight group 2.5 cents
      124 jhp from Montana Gold 10 cents (to get that price you must buy 2500)
      You must buy reloading equipment, buy it lasts forever if you take care of it

      Bottom line: 17 per round that works out to $8.50 per box, AND you get the satisfaction of personalizing your ammo, and you always have something to shoot. Oh and I pick up used brass at the range and reload that also.

      • 2ThinkN_Do2

        No place to do reloading at this time, but I do save my brass. I know some small scale reload resellers that will exchange reloads for X amount of used brass. I have plenty of once used brass to barter with.

      • dragon5126

        no do NOT reload. reloading is for hunting and target shooting. what control do you have over those primers before you bought them? was the highschool dweeb diddling them on the back room when the came in? was the box left on a damp concrete floor? Defensive ammo is process controlled all the way through the production start to finish,

        • Jim

          I will agree with you that your defensive rounds should be high quality store bought rounds. I was referring as you noted reloads are good for hunting and target shooting. I like you want the best for my personal protection rounds. As a side not they do not last forever, I replace mine every 9 to 12 months.

          • dragon5126

            you do As I do, and I make sure I am loading my practice ammo to the ballistic equivalent of my defensive ammo (bullet weight, velocity and point of aim) so that my reflexive shooting habits are not adversely impacted. I need to shoot my carry ammo to validate this, on a regular basis, so they never age out. I do one off reloading, get very anal and even have gone as far as weigh the brass and keep logs of it so I can spot check the loaded rounds. Obviously I don’t buy “guests'” comment about ever having any misfires on reloads but has on factory… 47 years is too long to have not thrown a bad round, that is unless he only loads 20 rounds a year.

        • shermr

          While I use factory premium defensive ammo for carry I do reload for target, practice, and hunting ammunition. I can say that I have never had a misfire on any of my reloaded ammunition over the last 47 years. On the other hand I have had several misfires using run of the mill factory ammo. Maybe the dweeb never handled my primers.

  • Leonidas

    Certainly, someone shot through the heart with either a .40 or a 9mm will die. However, lethality is, ultimately, not the issue. The ability to quickly stop an attack is. According to FBI data, the .40 S&W is a more effective one-shot fight stopper than the 9mm. The fact that the attacker eventually dies from the 9mm wound is of little significance if he can carry on his attack long enough to kill his victim first.

    • Jim

      I believe lethality is the ultimate issue for police, every time they fire they seem to empty their magazine, that is more than stopping the threat.

      • dragon5126

        this is due to the fact that they need to stop the threat as fast as possible. and even with a heart penetrated, if the assailant is loaded with adrenalin they will continue their assault until the brain dies.

      • Scott Esse

        sorry Jim but if the assailant is moving they haven’t stopped. therefore you shoot until they do.

    • dragon5126

      BRAVO! (Not to be snide to you, but to the others who arent thinking) SOMEONE FINALLY FIGURED IT OUT! If an officer must shoot it MUST be to KILL IMMEDIATELY as this is the ONLY guaranteed stop. And so NOT come back with “shot placement” garbage, because you are NOT THERE… until you experience that adrenal dump, the loss of sharp eye focus that it causes due to eye dilation, the loss of fine motor control skills required for Shot Placement, You DO NOT KNOW nor have the experience to talk, this is why when there are officer involved shootings, THEY Empty their Magazines…

  • lgray0451

    THIS ARTICLE IS NOT RELEVANT AS A SW40 IS HALF A 10MM ROUND THAT WAS PRODUCED BECAUSE OF WOMEN AND PUSSIES IN THE POLICE DEPT AND ELSEWHERE.. SO DO NOT TELL ME A 9MM IS BETTER THAN A 10MM OR 45. WHEN I AM IN DANGER I SHOOT TO KILL NOT MAIM.

    • dragon5126

      Wrong… I hope you are a better informed voter than shooter,
      the .40 S&W is 25% slower, than the 10mm which is a magnum class round. As such any situation that would cause “limp wristing” such as a gun shot wound, presents a very high probability of stovepiping on ejection no matter WHO is shooting it. And Drop the caps they make you look like an ignorant ranting redneck. BTW it was the FBI that dropped the 10mm shortly after trying it, and the PRIMARY reason the women were complaining, was not inability to shoot it, it was inability to properly conceal the large framed handgun as required under agency regulations. I was there when it happened, I was one of the range masters at Quantico at the time.

    • RizzutoSC

      Hey Fella. Do us all a favor and avoid using the “women and pussies” crap since there are a good lot of women who read this blog for informational purposes (my wife included) and stuff like that does nothing to disparage your target and only makes women like my own wife think the average shooter is masoginistic redneck who thinks with his dick. Help us all out and don’t comment if that’s the crap you’re going to spew. Thanks. Oh, and drop the CapsLock.

      • stagarms

        Riz, dragon5126 is a true classic Neanderthal with computer skills. What is sad is he sometimes has a good point but it is so lost in his rude and obnoxious behavior. He is probably the local drunk who, while may be good for a few laughs and fun facts, quickly wears out his welcome everywhere he goes. Probably has been divorced at least 3 times too. Click on his profile and speed read his posts (over 1600, which means he is one lonely guy). He is most likely the neighbor everyone dreads living next to…..sad.

        • dragon5126

          Whats the matter Stag, you cant handle that you are constantly be busted on your myths and fallacies? and as for my number of posts, you don’t like the fact that I;ve been on the site since it started? What is sad is that you feel so threatened that you have to go around trying to recruit people to your gutless castrata club.

          • stagarms

            Your honorable DRAGON5126, You are the greatest in the entire world! How is it that you don’t have your own TV and radio show by now? I wish I could just hang out with you all day long and drink in all the wisdom in your head. I feel honored and privileged that you even correspond with me! You are a genius, a gentleman in the most incredible poster I’ve ever read! Please don’t stop! More wisdom! More knowledge! I feel humbled being in your virtual presence. I am not worthy, I am not worthy…….

          • Scott Esse

            How do you know he doesn’t? If anything you are rather pathetic taking the name of a company that you don’t have the balls to represent…

        • Scott Esse

          hey fag arms, did dragon turn you down for a date again? You DO know hei snt gay like you, right?

    • Tec Sg Beatty

      No need to shout, Igray. The 10mm is a great, and highly underrated, cartridge, pretty much equivalent to the .41 Magnum, itself underappreciated. The .40 S&W was in fact a downloaded 10mm, due to both the intolerance to recoil of small-framed males and females, and also that the .40 S&W can be chambered in pistols of 9mm frame size, therefore increasing magazine capacity.
      Just to info you: Swedish and Norwegian wildlife officers carry Glock 10mm pistols for protection against polar bears.

    • tricolordad

      Not true at all. .40S&W is 10x23mm and 10mm auto is 10x25mm. “half a 10mm” would make the 10mm casing about the same length as a .308 casing. Would be very difficult to hold that gun in even my gigantic hands…

      • Scott Esse

        You really ARE stupid aren’t you, case capacity vs exterior case length are two entirely different things due to the case web and the seating depth of the projectile…

  • Leonidas

    Also, the assertion about the gun manufacturers pushing .40 so they could get the 9mm high-capacity magazines is simple B.S., and is probably libel as well.

  • gr0mblE

    I’d say the push for .40 stemmed from the FBI’s adoption and agencies being fairly unhappy with the effectiveness of 9mm at the time…

    The primary advantage to 9mm IMO is cost. Any time a choice is based mostly on cost there is inevitably talk of “just as good as…”

    Practicing or just having fun with 9mm is one thing – I choose to carry something else.

    • dragon5126

      once again for law enforcement there IS NO significant cost difference. they are not buying surplus ammo, old ammo or overstock ammo. They are also using the purchasing power of the state they are in, all 50 states in the nation offer municipal and county law enforcement departments the advantage of using the states contracts for bulk purchases of ammo to cut the prices substantially

      • gr0mblE

        For agencies, yes, cost is not so much a concern… that is not what I said. Cost _is_ a significant driver for individuals that purchase their own ammo and that is where a lot of the “just as good” talk on the net comes from.

        .

    • dragon5126

      the actual result of the FBI using the .40S&W was the result of the replacement of the ineffective 9mm being replaced by the overpowered 10mm being too large for proper concealment, too large for many agents hands, (which resulted in the rumor that many couldn’t handle the caliber). The physical size of the 9mm pistol was deemed ideal in that it fit the largest number of hand sizes so the push was for a caliber that would fit the frame size, with the closest ballistic capabilities of the 10mm hence the subsequent development of the .40 S&W

  • Defender

    I believe that the only “thing” better is the powder. The case and projectile will remain the same for all calibers. Would like to see stats for powder burn from 10 years ago and today.

    • dragon5126

      no. the projectile designs and the alloys and jackets are changing as well

    • Scott Esse

      that is totally irrelevant, if the powder supplies the same muzzle velocity and case pressures, there is literally no difference.

  • stagarms

    My Glock 30 gen 4 shoots like a 9, but the ammo is deff more $$$, so I practice a lot with my 17 or 19 or M9.

    If a police dept. can buy 13 rounds of 9 for every 10 rounds of .40, it’s simple math. Budgets are wicked tight these days.

    As far as the rest of the article, hey, it’s his opinion…stop ripping him up. If you don’t agree, you don’t have to flame him….I can go to Huffington Post for rude comments.

    • dragon5126

      You can also move to china to suppress other peoples opinions. Do you think the local PD is using that much ammo? Particularly since they should not be holding duty ammo more than one to two years unless vacuum sealed at which it’s life it’s maximum recommended life is five years. Pistol qualifications are typically every three months, practice ammo is the officers responsibility not the departments

      • stagarms

        Really? Move to China? That is your response? Expressing YOUR opinion does not mean ripping into ANOTHER’S opinion. That is what children do. As far as local PD usage, yes, I DO know. I am on my cities Board of Finance, I see the budget, I am even w/ in ear shot of their range…the practice a lot, as they should. So I DO know what I am talking about wrt saving $$$ best a city/town can. We sw/ to Glock 17s just for that specific purpose. I helped get that motion through. Any other rants?

        • dragon5126

          they pay for their own practice ammo over 30 rounds a month, SOP nationally as for your CITY’s board of Finance, they do not supervise the PD’s internal Budget, care to make up any OTHER lies? and as for telling someone to move to China, when THEY are the one who is attempting to suppress someone else’s statement, it is More valid than the falsehoods you are posting. You see a Municipality does NOT control the internal operation of the PD. It is a direct conflict of interest and is strictly prohibited to PREVENT low level self important scumbag municipal counsel members from trying to get out of tickets or other unlawful acts. Don’t you HATE it when you try to Lie to someone who knows the facts and calls you on it?

          • stagarms

            dragon5126, it’s sad, reading all of your post, you do have some valid points on many subjects. The problem is they are lost in you rudeness and an apparent inability to control yourself. If you can cut back on the caffein, Jack and possibly prescription drugs, maybe you can participate without sounding like a complete ass4ole.

          • dragon5126

            what is sad is you proclaim that I am rude and cant control myself when I am stating simple fact and yet you resort to blatant juvenile insult perhaps it is you who is the asshole and cant handle it when one of your favorite fallacies is disproven, Grow the hell up . I live in the real world and don’t play your pretend games. I’m not an internet wannabe such as yourself.

          • stagarms

            Said the clown…

          • dragon5126

            proof of the accuracy of my statement. twice over.

          • stagarms

            Your the best!

          • John

            Dragon5126, I just want to point out that different states have different laws on how to handle police budget. What you said about 30 rounds is not true in Montana.

          • Scott Esse

            Wrong John. It is in fact very true. The officer is able to write the ammo off as a job expense and as such it costs both the department and tax payers LESS in the end . Montana set the example for the other states and they jumped on the bandwagon enmasse

          • Scott Esse

            said the coward who wont post a name

          • Scott Esse

            you ARE a clown GUEST….

          • stagarms

            Yep…..roger…..

          • tricolordad

            Seems to me that his prescription hasn’t been filled in a while.

          • Scott Esse

            you and fag arms lovers?

          • Scott Esse

            hey fag arms. Dragon is posting facts you are posting fallacies… which is more pertinent?

      • msg51

        ” it’s maximum recommended life is five years.” Don’t know what you use to slay dragons with, But we were using ammunition dated in the 1940′ in Vietnam. You sound like the congressman who thought he had the solution to gun control. Place a ban on the manufacture of ammunition and within a year all of the ammunition in existence would be defective and of no use.

        • dragon5126

          1940 you say, well we all know that’s a lie, I suggest you look at the calibers used and the dates the government started using them and start retracting your words real fast… In law enforcement we do not let ammo age out and we don’t make up ridiculous lies dumbass, the 7.62×51, and 5.56×45 were not military calibers in 1940 and the .45 acp had to be recontracted due to a shortage during the Korean war, Liars like you make REAL Vietnam Vets look bad, Can YOU Say STOLEN VALOR?

        • Scott Esse

          How does it feel being busted for posting bullshit and lies by someone you are claiming to be full of shit, when he even posts exactly WHY You are a blatant Liar?

      • tricolordad

        You’re the perfect example of suppressing other people’s opinions. Fortunately, most people know BS when they see it. Why is it you insist you’re right while belittling others who have different views, but you won’t ever cite your sources? I gave you a like to be annoying.

        • Scott Esse

          Tricolor why are you riding Dragons ass so much, did he turn down your inappropriate attention and sexual advances? Thus far everything he has posted has been spot on, and it all has proven you to be a fool…

  • ……

    I enjoy .357 and 9MM as my pistol rounds of choice, I use the 9MM mainly for target practice for many of the reasons noted above, and I use my .357 as my concealed carry, I do practice with that also, but I prefer a revolver over a semi auto in life and death situation, no safety, no checking to see if I chambered a round, just pull, point, and shoot. I think it all comes down to personal preference.

  • James Van Valkenburg

    Yes, the .45 ACP is more expensive, the 1911 is heavier and it only has a 7 or 8 round magazine. A hit from a 230 grain jhp or a 124 grain jhp will produce the same effect. In this modern world, quantity of rounds down range is more important than learning how to shoot in stressful conditions. The .45 has been battle proven in two world wars and several smaller “wars”. I normally carry a full size 1911 (concealed) or an Officers model of the 1911 and yes, I do own several 9’s they are fun to shoot, but if I have to bet my life on something, it will be with the .45.

    • dragon5126

      You need to study TERMINAL BALLISTICS… And talk to any experienced deer hunter about the difference between a 150 gr bullet vs a 200 grain some time. Simply put, you are WRONG. The United States Military went BACK to the .45 Colt because the 158 grain .38 would not stop the Moros during the Philippine American war of 1899-1902. The 9mm is vastly underpowered compared to the .38 Colt they were using, by over 50% in overall power (terminal ballistics). You are arguing AGAINST proven historical FACT, virtually every one of you 9mm proponents need to re-educate yourselves. Our troops are coming home from overseas right now and supplying testimony that the 9mm is ineffective in combat, to the powers that be among the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Pentagon. Once again EDUCATE YOURSELVES, this doesn’t mean read it on the web, go buy a whole slaughtered undressed Hog and shoot it and dissect it and look for yourself. then put that nine away for teaching the kids to shoot or for target practice after you see how ineffective it really is.

      • James Van Valkenburg

        A center mass hit with either will result in a fatality. That was my point.

        • Tec Sg Beatty

          Actually, no, James. Most handgun, and many rifle rounds, are quite survivable with a “center mass” hit, unless the major organs (heart, liver, spleen, and lungs, in that order) are severely damaged. With FMJ ammo, the round nose and slick surface of the bullet tend to “push” things out of the way.
          Hollowpoints, due to their expansive qualities and jagged edges, tend to rip and tear tissue(s), increasing blood loss and imparting more trauma due to expenditure of maximum energy.
          Elmer Keith was right; a large, relatively slow moving bullet, with sharp shoulders and of sufficient weight and hardness, is a sure stopper. His “Keith-type” .45 Colt and .44 Special bullets attest to this fact. Please read his works; I’m sure you’ll find it very interesting and extremely educational.

          • dragon5126

            Tec you made one mistake, and that is the major organ listing. Liver and spleen hits can result in walking injured wounds your fatalities are in order Heart, Aorta Pulmonary Artery, Lungs, Spleen Liver. with the last three being dependent on the extent of the wound, which is based on CALIBER, projectile expansion and actual position of wound. The first three organs are obvious, they are high pressure circulatory organs. Death is only caused by shutting the brain down, and the brain supplies a target the size of a hard ball (region of fatality) that is in constant motion thanks to the neck. therefore the best way to induce death is cut off blood flow to the brain, which will first induce unconsciousness. Therefore you want to damage, to the greatest extent possible, the heart and the two major arteries associated with it, the Aorta and the Pulmonary artery. The Aorta is the artery that supplies blood to the entire body, and the Pulmonary artery is the major artery from the heart to the lungs. Opening any of the three and the blood will flow into the thorax, the larger the wound the faster the hemorrhage, the faster death ensues.
            With the last three organs, with the exception of the arterial feeds you are dealing with massive quantities of smaller blood vessels… as such slower onset of fatality. And Only the pulmonary artery on the lungs can cause near instantaneous unconsciousness if hit, of these three… but that is part of the first three…

            This brings us back to your comment about Elmer Keith, which is a truism but has to be updated as medical science has stepped a bit past him. The hardness and sharp shoulders as well as speed are not actually true, as the damage is all part of a balanced equation of sorts. There are three things that make a projectile fatal, Diameter, weight and speed. An automobile moving much slower than a bullet is certainly more deadly than a .429 diameter slug moving much faster, reason being that the weight and size spreads the impact across the entire body, and doesn’t even need to penetrate to kill. completely obvious, yet totally ignored in the ballistic world, but still 100% valid as an example Now that .429 44 caliber round lets say 240 grain vs a 120 grain .355 9mm lets push them at the same speed, 950 fps, forget energy figures its obvious the 44 is higher,,, but physical damage will be greater with the .44 due to size alone. however if we push that 9mm to 2500 fps, suddenly the damage it does can not be matched by the .44. WHY? it has been imparted with greater energy, Look at the 9mm vs the 357… only a .002″ difference in size, yet the .357 walks all over the 9mm due to greater energy levels slight weight increase but substantial speed difference. NOW the other flaw that has been proven in Keiths logic is the hardness of the projectile. He advocated hard lead. Hard cast is fine for revolvers and large bore rifles. And target shooting. BUT it tends to not expand as well as todays bonded soft lead, jacketed hollow points. Technology simply passed him up. This isn’t to remove the validity of his work, it just moves it to a limited area, that has been removed from the defensive shooting arena.
            Now when we put the above information together, and look at the hard core facts about bullet diameters, speed and weight, and compare the 9mm and the .40, and make sure we are looking at identical bullet designs. It is literally foolish to even consider the slow and woefully, by comparison, under powered 9mm in ANY situation where you are shooting at a target where the target can shoot back. simply put, you don’t want to cut that Aorta or Pulmonary artery you NEED to shred it and shred it twice or preferably each of them once.

        • dragon5126

          NO. a COM does NOT always result in fatality, it supplies the GREATEST PROBABILITY of fatality but guarantees NOTHING other than being the center of the target

    • Tec Sg Beatty

      Good post, James, but I must disagree on one point: “a hit from a 230 grain jhp or a 124 grain jhp will produce the same effect”.
      As a retired military small arms expert, former cop, and certified firearms instructor, in addition to being one of great curiosity, I’ve conducted many informal tests of many types/calibers of handgun ammo. The one thing I’ve found for certain is that not all jhps expand ALL OF THE TIME. One must rely upon a 9mm hp to expand; I’ve never heard of a .45 ACP rounding shrinking.
      Add to this the extremely reliability of lighter .45s, such as the 185 and 200 grain jhps at significantly higher (for a .45 ACP) velocity, and I can assure you that a 9mm will rarely, if ever, match the .45’s terminal ballistics.
      I’ll rely on the physical fact that BIGGER is BETTER. Any added expansion in any caliber is only more good news. As to the mention of “reduced recoil” of 9mms in the article, I trained my daughter to shoot, and at 10 years old, she could handle the recoil of a .45 ACP 1911 very well. It’s all a matter of technique and training.

      • TrollHunter

        “Retired Military small arms expert” This part of your sentence made me laugh to a point where I could not take anything you said after seriously…. Let’s break it down. Only people who are in the Chair Force or CG say they’re ‘Military’ the rest of us are proud to be Marines, Army or Navy. Just a tip, you guys always try to slide by with that and we all see it a coming a mile away. Just be proud, you served, congrats.

        2nd if I am correct, then you should think long and hard about combining those two together and serving that BS to the world where we can smell it. What exactly is a small arms expert in the military (especially CG or Air Force)? Don’t answer, I’ll save you the embarrassment… It doesn’t exist. The best units get private contractors to train us. Not broke down REMF re enlistees from not combat sectors of the military.

        You may have been good at your base’s range and maybe gone as far a basic pistol instructor (and if it’s AF or CG, it meant you were really good at making gun noises holding those blue pistols) but you were not half as qualified as you’re attempting to sound here.

        Former Cop? Cop, really? How disrespectful to the trade. This means two things: One, you weren’t a real LEO or you worked in some backwoods, POS, BFE dept with 6 of your inbred cousins who knighted each other to watch over the rest of your rotten genetic cesspool.

        Lastly, a CFI? I actually believe that, because getting your CFI permit is about as hard as reading the back of a cereal box and proves that you know just about enough to not shoot yourself or your students. Doesn’t make you an expert at anything aside from the CFI process. Remember, those paper targets don’t shoot back bud.

        Sorry if it was over the top and it seems like I targeted you, but Dragon5126 (Did you really choose ‘Dragon’ lol) actually takes the blue ribbon for Mall Ninja of the interwebz. He’s clearly past his prime and spouting ancient rhetoric that he manipulates in an attempt to disprove real studies, data and facts. He actually referenced Deer Hunting (which seeks the opposite result). You got some good info, but your god complex and lack of current information makes you irrelevant.

        I am blown away at the comments in this thread and how loaded with mall ninjas this forum is. I will not speak for anyone else and tell you that I, myself carried an M9 in iraq and it did exactly what I needed it to do, serve as BACKUP to my 240G/M16/M4 (depending on which tour it was. The gov’t ammo is garbage, but if i pointed it at what i wanted to destroy and aimed and fired as I was trained to, the BG went down…. every single time. Also, no one here talks about SHTF scenarios where WE (not you) have to fire for cover or fire for movement. Yes, ill take 18 rds of 8 any day (and twice on sundays.) Don’t make the mistake of thinking this would not apply to a CONUS or WROL scenario as well.

        Sure, we all came back wishing we had 45’s instead, but we also wish we had bigger dicks and HUMMVEE’s with A/C, etc so take it with a grain of salt. All you do from day one in boot camp till the day your retire/EAS is get spoonfed crap from pissed off old timers trying to stay relevant by telling you about how much better it was in the ‘Old Core.’ That included carrying 45’s and drinking whiskey in hot zones. I digress. I own a 1911 that I love very, very much, however when I train for keeps, it’s with my M&P9 which i take to tac courses etc for one very simple rule; it provides me the BEST compromise between penetration/tissue damage and round count. (* NOTE: I did not say stopping power) Essentially, I will be able to put more rounds, on target, faster, than you will with your .45. This is a fact, so put a muzzle on the dragon. In my not so humble experience, that is what wins gun fights. For every case you show me where a gunfight was won in 1 shot, I will give you 3 examples where it exceeded a min of 8 rounds.

        We can target shoot all day and I will put 15+ rounds in the black faster than you will. Not because I’m awesome (I am pretty awesome, though), but I have less muzzle flip and can back on target faster and fire my next shot. Oh yeah, and you gotta reload. Good luck with that.

        Oh and stop using “stopping power” you silly hicks. There is no such thing as “stopping power” when it comes to pistols.They disqualify each other and make you sound stupid. If you’ve ever had to breach and clear a room, defend a position or stand toe to toe with the BG, the last thing you think about is your sidearm. I’m grabbing an AR or Shotgun, you know the things LEO’s have mounted in their center console and the thing we train our Military on FIRST.

        I don’t see any value to your community so I won’t be back to see the flame war this causes. Just please keep carrying those .45’s in case we do meet so I can take them from you and put them in my pack for when i run out of 9mm.

        • Tec Sg Beatty

          Do you always rant this way, or are you just off your meds?
          If you in fact did serve, then you have my thanks. If not, GFYS.
          You have no idea of my experience, qualifications, training or anything else. As such, just who in Hell are you to make such unfounded, unqualified judgments on me?
          I am also quite well qualified with the M-16, M-4, combat shotgun (Mossberg 500/590 and Remington 870) plus several other weapons. Have you ever qualified on the M-1 Garand or carbine? Thompson SMG? UZI? MAC-10/11? H&K MP5SD? AK-47? AK-74? Must be a generational thing, youngster.
          The big reason you NEED 15+ rounds in the 9mm M9 is that it is a very poor choice for personal defense. Talk to me when it’s been in service for 70+ years; there’s a reason the M1911 was, and it had nothing to do with “NATO standardization”.
          I’ll defend your right to disagree; I will not defend your right(?) to be an arrogant, judgmental a$$hole.

        • Scott Esse

          Trollhunter = troll who hunts Your final paragraph proves this statement, your entire diatribe is bullshit, and you are a coward hiding behind a tagline name and spitting shit like this… You attack people who actually supply verifiable facts, Your trolling on that Dragon dude is amusing, as it seems your fixation is sexual, and your attempt to claim military experience is amusing to those who actually have it. We all know you are sitting by with your book of army terms close by waiting to come up with yet another name to fling uneducated insults under. Your father SHOULD have asked you mother for a refund, you shame him

  • shermr

    If a change is being made it is being made because the economy of the 9mm is better. Advances in bullet design or components increase effectiveness accross the board. Speer Gold Dot bullets have been available since 1995, the 40 S&W since 1990. Law enforcement wanted to upgrade from the 38 Special revolver, (not the 9mm), when this began to happen some units adopted the 9mm and others adopted the new 40 S&W because it offered similar magazine capacity and slightly higher energy, law enforcement seemed standardize around the 40 for this reason and became the most popular duty option. Now that ammo costs have gone through the roof the 9mm is quite a bit more economical to shoot, although defensive ammunition costs are still fairly close. I don’t notice any recoil advantage for the 9mm over the 40 S&W, and most law enforcement agencies were exempted from the high capacity magazine ban. I was also under the impression that former law enforcement personnel could carry in every state as long as they met the adopted standards.

    • Joel

      To be able to CCW as a retired LE officer under HR218 LEOSA, one has to have retired after 10 years or more of service, or have been retired due to a work related injury that left the officer disabled (after any probationary period was completed).

      • dragon5126

        This is ONLY proposed and is NOT passed HR= House RESOLUTION it has to be an ACT to be a law

    • dragon5126

      there is no economic difference. Law enforcement buys through the state in massive quantities in almost every instance, due to the ability to get massive price cuts.

  • mike

    I’ll keep all my 10’s

  • Jim

    So now I know why it is so hard to find 9mm ammo and 40 is all over the place.

  • noname

    You might have indicated in your article that the 9mm 124 grain GoldDot you referenced is +P, so it has increased recoil over the standard 9mm, and the recall is on par with 40 and 45. Also, the article addressed the move from 40 to 9mm, but not from 45 to 9mm, so the issue of 45 ACP was not addressed.

    • dragon5126

      he also only cited ONE department and NO agencies

  • Rich

    If you think ammo is high priced now just wait until next year. The Regime’s EPA is forceing the only lead ore refining plant in the US to shut down Dec 31 permanetly. It would have required an impsossible standard requiring a 100 million dollar investment. Of course, we can ship ore to China or get some from Peru. They China would refine it and ship it back if were not fighting some country they support. Better get your lead and ammo now. Of course, China’s EPA is much more strict than ours. LOL

    • Red Eye Trucker !!

      I see it as a matter of factoring Price on Ammo and fear factor Supply verse demand, But Please Read Guns &Ammo Latest Issue on the News of the detailed language off G&A Inside Information from a well known Ammo Manufacturing Company, The info will surprise you about lead Shortages.
      I am sure the market place Price Gouging will take advantage of this situation.. What Eco Friendly Technology will replace Smeltering Lead out of the Ore Mined out of MO , Caustic Acids Like Copper gold and Silver ?
      This has been proven to save energy and reduce Pollution Look west to AZ it has, when the last of the Copper Smelter’s went down in Silver City,N.M . and outside of Globe AZ in 06.

    • Anthony James

      , it’s because gun manufacturers wanted to make money and so they made the police departments an offer they couldn’t resist.

      • carynflo

        Without Government permission you can’t made any 9mm or Syz.

        • Scott Esse

          WRONG carnflo… this isn’t the European union

    • tricolordad

      And their quality control is the equivalent of a fart.

    • Scott Esse

      didn’t work out that way so far

    • Scott Esse

      well rich here it is a year later and prices HAVE Dropped… now you were saying?

  • Rich

    There must have been a surplus of Ammo last year in the Cleveland police department. 10 or so cops emptied there guns into a van of 2 women. The women turned out to be unarmed. They had 140 bullet entrance holes in the vehicle

    • Trey VonZimmer

      Get your story straight, this is completely wrong. There were NO two women in any VAN. Your reading comprehension and knowledge of current events leaves a lot to be desired.

      • dragon5126

        I read the same thing in the trade news…

      • puck

        what did they shooting at?

    • puck

      the 10 or so cops should be taken of department, and taken to the range until they can hit what they are shooting at, 140 bullets come on.what scared them off target?????.i do not think 22- 9- 38- 40- 45-, would have mattered.i guess you had to be there !!

    • tricolordad

      The story I read on yahoo news and also in a USA carry forum thread stated that it was a man and a woman, in their 20s who ran from police and were unarmed and had no illegal items in their vehicle. And yes, the cops murdered them. No reason for 12 officers to open up on them like that in a residential neighborhood for running a routine traffic stop.

  • Harry

    Jason,
    You are absolutely right. I have studied ballistics whether gel or water along with penetration and expansion. It seems like the 9mm is perfectly adequate and only minutely inferior to the 40; in fact, I would any day rather carry my Glock 19 and 16 rounds vs any .45 with half the rounds.
    I often marvel at how people say stupid things like, you my as well have a steel frame 9 so you can hit him with it after you empty the magazine into him. THAT IS UTTERLY RIDICULOUS AND NOT EVEN CLOSE TO BALLISTICAL REALITY. Gold Dots or HST’s are excellent rounds and will get the job.
    Thank you for defending a great NATO round…..

    • Scott Esse

      Ballistical reality? you never studied ballistics… if you did you would know there is no such term as “Ballistical”…. face it you are so fecally filled everyone can smell it. The sad part is it simply detracts from those who MIGHT have a valid point to make for the 9mm

  • Al DeMatteo

    I don’t know which ballistics charts you’re looking at, but the .40 caliber round has it’s place because it is a higher velocity round with better penetration. I like the 9mm round too, but to suggest that the .40 cal is “equal” to the 9mm is just not what modern ballistics tests indicate.

    • dragon5126

      Al, Send them to research the Philippine American War… Our troops went BACKWARDS to a single action .45 colt because the 158 grain .38 colt round wasn’t taking out the Moro warriors that were killing our troops. The fact is the 9mm is a LIGHT .355 caliber round and is ineffective, has been proven ineffective in Kuwait, Iraq, and Afghanistan. it is an excellent semiauto target round, and a sweet caliber for a modern “pocket pistol” but as a full blown defensive round, it lacks. I could sit and write a full dissertation on the mechanics of death by GSW, and how the 9mm fails to be sufficient with out the ability to shoot a hard ball sized target that is swinging on an 18 inch string at 15 foot while running cross range, (this is the effective target scenario offered by the human brain) but too many here would not get it, I could also explain how to simulate the effects of an adrenalin dump and demonstrate that not a single person in this thread, myself included, is capable of the shot placement sub par caliber choices require. I have literally done this for thousands of trainees. but it all comes back to one thing you choose THE MOST CAPABLE caliber, and TRAIN with it until you can use it with out thinking about recoil, sight recovery, reloads or anything else, you just do it. And if you cant handle a .40, you cant handle a 9mm either.

      • Al DeMatteo

        Excellent points, dragon!

        • tricolordad

          You may want to take what you hear from him with a grain of salt. When my last post makes it thru moderation, you’ll understand why.

          • dragon5126

            yeah because WIKIPEDIA is a medical school, moron

          • tricolordad

            wikipedia cites their sources, click the little blue numbers and it will take you to their bibliography page, most with web links.

            BTW, since you’re the military uniform expert…you’d surely know that “tricolor” is a reference to the 3 color desert camouflage uniform, or DCU, for short. Wouldn’t you? Or are you just a flapping jaw?

          • Scott Esse

            tricolor is more of a poser term than a real reference to military service. and NOBODY calls it DCU except paintballers

          • dragon5126

            Just for you a$$hole:

            ju·ra·men·ta·do

            /Spanish ˌhurɑmɛnˈtɑðɔ/ Show Spelled [Spanish hoo-rah-men-tah-thaw] Show IPA

            noun, plural ju·ra·men·ta·dos /ˌhurɑmɛnˈtɑðɔs/ Show Spelled [hoo-rah-men-tah-thaws] Show IPA .

            (formerly) a Muslim, especially a Moro, bound by an oath to be killed fighting against Christians and other infidels.

            Origin:
            < Spanish: literally, (one) sworn (past participle of juramentar to swear), equivalent to jurament- (< Late Latin jūrāmentum oath, equivalent to jūrā ( re ) to swear + -mentum -ment) + -ado -ate1

          • Scott Esse

            ten months later and it still didn’t make it through moderation be cause the moderators even recognize tricolor to be a habitual liar

      • tricolordad

        The Moros also tightly bound their limbs and torsos to restrict bloodflow which enabled them to fight longer and harder. (For those who don’t understand my reference, the binding slowed blood loss and enabled the Moro warrior to remain on his feet longer. Many carried swords, imagine shooting a man 3, 4 times and he keeps coming and runs a sword through your stomach while you frantically try to reload your cylinder…) The bigger round was completely necessary, it took too long to bleed em out so they had to be knocked down.

        • dragon5126

          sorry toady but your myth doesn’t hold water if you have any understanding of human physiology, If you came across this honestly, no insult intended, but if you are trolling take it with extreme contempt. You see the binding of the limbs and torsos would restrict the movements of the muscles under the bindings taking the bicep as an example if bound it could not contract, limiting it’s movement and the power the limited amount of movement would have. Likewise the torso would be limited preventing the full expansion of the chest, thereby preventing the lungs from full function further limiting their ability. The truth is the Moros were loaded up on opiates when entering battle and felt little pain and didn’t know when they were injured.

          • tricolordad

            I see that the moderators chose not to allow my last post. lolz its ok. Just google the word “Juramentados.” You’ll find all you need about the limb binding acting as tourniquets, with source citations, at wikipedia and a few other sites.

          • Scott Esse

            The moderators know bullshit when they smell it

          • tricolordad

            In the future, please refrain from making statements on topics that you know very little about. While you may be a source of great information regarding terminal ballistics and it is fun to watch you huff and puff when others disagree with your opinions, your knowlege of other subjects is very similar to that of a student majoring in Liberal Arts. Remember to read up on the subject of Juramentados! The wikipedia article includes several references to the limb binding, which by the way, is still a tactic used today. And yes, they did hop themselves up on drugs. The army is coming out with a new uniform with a built in tourniqet system soon! The French Foreign Legion already incorporated it into the FELIN system. (Whether or not they still use it, I do not know.) Wonder where they got that idea from??

          • dragon5126

            how about in the future you refrain from talking bullshit? plain enough for you? As for Wikipedia, anyone with half a brain knows it isn’t a reliable source of information. hell the army has been issuing BDUs with tourniquets for several years now I have five sets myself. and binding is not a tactic that is used anywhere. Had you any real knowledge of human physiology you wouldn’t be trying to impress yourself by supporting the crap you posted, As for your stupid Idea that Tourniqets are comparable to the effects of what you describe as the equivalent to a modern pressure suit is probably the stupidest thing I have ever heard since some moron said “you can keep your policy”… You are dismissed.

          • tricolordad

            Staying on topic…even though the Army hasn’t issued BDUs since 2006, when they began issuing ACUs, which I also have many sets of, most of them with ripstop name tape, with *gasp!* MY name on them!

            Since what you’re basically saying is that binding the limb(tying fabric around it to slow blood flow) is not working as a tourniquet, even though that’s what a tourniquet does…explain to me how they work. Your opinion contradicts medical science and I fail to see how your opinion could be construed as fact since it is just an opinion with no scientific or valid medical basis to it. That’s why it is called an “opinion.”

            Simple fact is, a tourniquet can be made from a piece of cloth. You tie it around the limb between the wound and the heart and it slows the blood loss so you can work on closing the wound with a cleaner work area and less blood loss. Moros didn’t care about closing the wound, they only cared about slowing blood loss enough to delay death for a few seconds, minutes, moments, so they could ram a sword ,knife etc through the enemy and kill him. Stopping to tie a tourniquet after being wounded was not essential to their mission since their mission was to kill until killed and they were more likely to bleed out or be finished off with a follow up shot or bayonetted, so they bound (tied) their limbs and torso in advance. To kill the enemy was to enter paradise in their beliefs, so that’s what the whole goal was: kill the enemy until the Moro himself was killed. Now please be kind enough to explain to me how a suicide warrior who ties his limbs, which we all know frequently get hit in battle, would be doing nothing when the US Army Historical Society notes that the tactic worked amazingly well and troops suffered losses and terrifying wounds as a direct result of that tactic.

            Or better yet, just shut up and wrap a rubber band around your finger and note that it begins to darken and turn purple as the blood flow is slowed and some blood gets through but some stays behind and loses oxygen to the surrounding tissue (which is why it looks purple in the first place) but you can still wiggle your f’in finger. If you’d just shut your mouth every once in a while and stop trying to convince everyone that you’re an expert on absolutely every damn thing on earth, you might learn something.

          • Scott Esse

            Moron the name of the camouflage used does not change the fact that they are still cataloged as BDUs It is you that needs to STFU. your lies are pathetic, you supply no corroborating facts and you are nothing but a mouthpiece for the mentally challenged. When you are proven wrong you turn to insults

          • Scott Esse

            Idiot the reason the finger looks purple is trapped blood not the use of O2. were it due to O2 consumption it would turn BLUE due to cyanosis most specifically at the nail, YOU are without a doubt the most stupid wannabe there is on this thread

          • Scott Esse

            Poser, As an expert on human physiology I can verify his comment is spot on. and YOU are full of shit Bound Limbs would not stop bleeding from center of mass hits, Further a heavy round does NOT knock the target down, it just imparts more internal damage. Its sad that you are too stupid to see how your comments display how poorly you lie.

          • Scott Esse

            Hey asshole lair… You still haven’t posted a single factual argument supporting ANYTHING you have said to date. all you have done is tried to slander Dragon, and he still kicked your ass with verifiable facts… You DO know the French Foreign Legion has been disbanded decades ago, don’t you? All it is now is a bunch of money grubbing mercs. you know mercenaries… Soldiers without countries or alliegance? you with me here? effing stupid poser…

      • Shadow Six

        Uh, dragon5126, the 9x19mm rounds is perfectly fine and effective. You’re talking about BATTLEFIELD CONDITIONS, where Full Metal Jacket ammunition is used. LAW ENFORCEMENT CONDITIONS render your argument about Kuwait, Iraq and Afghanistan invalid, as law enforcement officers carry Jacketed Hollow Point ammunition, which is much more effective in putting down a threat.

        “And if you cant hand a .40, you cant handle a 9mm ether.” – Uh, what? 9mm has a lighter load, and is more controllable. Furthermore, LE agencies are showing firearms chambered in .40S&W are wearing much faster than any 9x19mm chambered variant. I don’t know about you, but I’d rather a DEFENSIVE FIREARM that has less likelihood of having a stoppage or malfunction over a pistol that makes a bigger bang and has bigger entry holes that don’t make much of a difference after the round begins expansion in the body…

        You are clearly showing that you didn’t even read the report by your reply.

        • Scott Esse

          Six, you need to start covering yours, and learning the facts, The first one is you virtually can not differentiate between the 9, 40 or 45 when shooting them in a firefight as the adrenaline in your blood stream will have taken over and tightened all the voluntary muscle groups in your body, And it is very obvious that you have never “played in the sand box” as your commentary is pure armchair warrior and nothing more. As for the wear on 40s vs 9mm? Pure invented bullshit being spread by those such as you who can not supply viable arguments and must stoop to inventing lies to make themselves feel better. The fact of the matter is the structural differences between the caliber firearm negates any wear difference what so ever. The stoppage differences only apply to those who fear the larger caliber and limp wrist it, resulting it a stove pipe. It is once again obvious that it is YOU that doesn’t know what they are talking about, and quite frankly it appears you stick with the 9mm simply because YOU cant handle anything else. That is simply a matter of either bad or lack of training. Its time for you to stop blaming your faults on everyone else, after all, your name isn’t Barack Obama, or is it?

      • William Dinwiddie

        and that’s with ball not hollow point I personally carry 9mm in my carry and the jframe backup both use 9mm . primary concern is cost also brand is hornady XTP both zombie loads and American gunner both hornady HP . also use zombie loads in my 45 when I carry that.

        • DeathFromTheShadows

          if cost is the primary concern why do you carry the MOST EXPENSIVE ammo that is more expensive than .40S&W that it is equal to but costs half as much? sounds to me that you are just full of bullshit and don’t know what you are talking about.

          • William Dinwiddie

            depends on whether you use ball or hollow point for normal carry o choose hollow point. ball on all calibers for range shooting is cheaper.yes for my daily carry I use hornady hollow point. and range shooting I get ball in bulk when its on sale. like 1000 rnd for 200 bucks. like tul ammo or wulf and they have so far worked in my guns with no problem. but again for carry I want reiliability and I consider it check when I have gotton the hotnadys on sale for 15.00 for 25 rounds which can go up to 29 dollars for a box.

      • William Dinwiddie

        since I spent 20 years in the army and a qualified on both the colt 45 and the baretta 9mm platforms I prefer the 45 but the m9 will do to. remember the military used ball ammo.

    • Scott Esse

      The Military is currently looking to replace the 9mm because it s an inferior round, limited power being the issue. They don’t want to go back to the .45 due to limited magazine capacity and the double stacks don’t fit every hand. And the number of uninformed shooters has influenced the choices away from the .40. If the Pentagon had people with any real intelligence they would go to a double stack, double action version of the 1911, yes the trigger system is different, but the assembly, field stripping, barrel lockup and other features have proven superior to other designs including the Beretta, and the excuse of being to hard to shoot is pure nonsense, as this is simply a matter of training, as the round does not recoil any worse than a .357 magnum, which NO police department ever had an issue with for the decades they were issued.

      • Shadow Six

        Holy shit! Battlefield targets are usually wearing soft or hard body armor. Of course 9x19mm is ‘inferior’ to an armored target. There’s only two pistol calibres rated to go toe-to-toe against body armor, and that’s 5.7x28mm and 4.6x30mm. Besides, military use FMJ ammunition, while law enforcement uses JHP ammunition. There’s a HUGE difference between the types of incident conditions, and it’s horses for courses.

        • Scott Esse

          Its really sad that you don’t have a clue. We have NOT fought ANY military that has utilized ANY form of body armor since switching to the 9mm, And the fact is the pentagon is complaining about it’s performance against the Muslim jihadists who are not even true military opponents, And then you are trying to mix arguments of hollow points vs fmj? This just proves that you are an open mouthed idiot without a clue… Go read a book and get an education!

          • Shadow Six

            Are you fucking dense? Did you not read a fucking thing I said? The military is bound by the Rules of War to not use Jacketed Hollow Point ammunition, so of fucking course they need a round with ‘more stopping power’. This is about LAW ENFORCEMENT, you dunce. 9×19 JHP rounds 124gr or higher is more than enough to down an offender. I speak from experience, champ. I’ve used Federal Hydra-Shok 124gr and moved to Federal HST. This ammunition will stop a threat in its tracks if you get the rounds on target, which this report outlines that 70-80% of rounds fired by LEOs miss, therefore more magazine capacity is a win. Are you quite finished making a dick of yourself?

          • Scott Esse

            The problem is I DID READ IT, BUT YOU NEVER USED YOUR HEAD WHEN YOU WROTE IT! You have ZERO experience in shooting anyone, you are a total moron as you are screaming about things that I didn’t even address. The fact is the 9mm is ineffective against people NOT wearing body armor. Period. This has been proven by the Pentagon since its adoption of the 9mm, in EVERY conflict we have fought since, Particularly since we have NOT fought anyone who issued ANY form of body armor PERIOD. NEXT FMJ ammo has greater penetration than hollow points, YET the 9mm is failing to adequately penetrate the clothing of the Muslims it is being used against. And finally YOU have NOT used ANY ammunition in real world scenarios, JUST punching paper. IF THAT. How do I know this? One of my particular skill sets is interrogation, and YOU are an effing liar, and telegraph it with every sentence. You have let your anger at being proven WRONG control you and bring out the fact that YOU are a fraud… Ammo capacity is an argument used by those who claim they have the biggest dick, The problem is they need to spit it out to continue arguing. Get the message?

          • Shadow Six

            I hope your “interrogation” skills are better than your comprehension skills, buddy. You’re dead wrong about me. I’m well and truly aware about penetration levels between FMJ and JHP rounds. I’m also well aware about clothing versus projectiles. For the four occasions I have shot people with my 9mm sidearm in Afghanistan as a security contractor, I used JHP rounds and each round penetrated, and took down the target with ease. Don’t come beating your fucking chest at me like a big bad boy you think you are when you you’re nothing but a packrat fanboy. There is absolutely ZERO NEED for any more than 9x19mm in law enforcement. End of transmission.

          • Scott Esse

            speaking of comprehension, you need to learn to comprehend what you are saying so that you can stop contradicting yourself all the time. Next as a contractor you would have had your hands full with an M4, so if you had to use a side arm you were incompetent and would have been removed after the first incident and your comment about the ammo used, You would have been turned over to the Afghani Military for prosecution of war crimes, which even possessing anything other than FMJ ammo in a warzone is called for. Now that you busted yourself out as a Liar and poser, Stop posting, Eazyboy.

          • Scott Esse

            funny how when the truth hits home and they know they cant talk their way out of it they don’t even have the balls to admit they are liars…

  • DarylD

    There is also not much difference between the .40 and .45 acp round, in some instances. For example, The .40 Remington Golden Saber 165gr. runs out at about 1,150 fps. In comparison, the 185 gr. Remington Golden Saber in .45 acp (11.4mm) +P rounds the chrono at about 1,140 fps. For a 10fps difference, I’ll stick to my 11.4mm, thank you.

    • 2ThinkN_Do2

      Do I care more about FPS or impact energy? Most 40’s pack more energy than a 9mm +P and even more than 45’s unless they are +P. Comparing Golden Saber at the Remington website, the 185gr 45+P has more impact and the velocity is about the same as 165gr 40; however they used a 5″ barrel on the 45 and only a 4″ on the 40, which will make a difference. I like 45’s too, but I usually carry an MK40 or 45 w/4″ barrel. As the majority of us realize, the best choice is the one you shoot well and are also comfortable carrying.

      • dragon5126

        Well said, however training can over come the carry and shooting issues, The ,40 was designed ground up to utilize the smaller “9mm class” frame, well supplying.45 acp performance with greater magazine capacity, without compromising the shooters ability to properly grip it. This is why it literally took over the shooting arena so rapidly.

      • Scott Esse

        without the increased velocity, the lighter round doesn’t have the energy the heavier round has, so if you don’t care about it you are exceedingly foolish. If you cant shoot properly with the higher energy round, you need to learn and practice. its that simple.

    • dragon5126

      How many rounds are in the two different magazines? THIS is the primary difference. The .40 delivers similar terminal ballistics, to the .45 due to the higher velocity, given equal class ammo. it also supplies 75% more rounds than the .45 in a frame equal in size to the 9mm, allowing a greater number of shooters to use a higher power handgun that has a recoil pulse that is less than 10% more than the 9mm, and in most cases, less than 5% more. (btw the .45 is classified 11.5mm)

    • Scott Esse

      In Most instances is a better statement, However there is One vital difference, magazine capacity vs concealability. Double stack .45s tend to have excessively large/long grip frames to get beyond the ten round limit that is looked for in defensive firearms. Terminal performance can be adjusted between the .40 and the .45, but the 9mm can only be brought up to the base performance of the 40 AT BEST, due to the limited case capacity, limited over all length and taper of the case itself. These are physical facts that proponents of the 9mm always forget

  • Bucky

    My feeling is this: if you train for SHTF situations, or in really cold weather, I would keep a 45 handy. If you 1) don’t have a lot of time to train, 2) don’t do well with small weapon/45 recoil, or 3) prefer to have more rounds in your mag, go with a polymer tipped hollow point 9mm. Being comfortable with a weapon and having it when you need it trumps all arguments.

    • tricolordad

      That last sentence kinda trumps your first one huh?

  • Steve Harmon

    I prefer my 10 mm colt. If i run out of ammo I can beat the sh*t out of them with 5 lbs of cold steel, ha ha.

  • jar1807

    After buying and shooting my SR 9c 9MM regularly, the conversion from using a .40, .45 or any other one of my guns as the preferred carry gun, was almost immediate. I’m faster, more accurate, more consistent, more comfortable the 9MM.

  • dragon5126

    WHAT a BUNCH OF BULL all the way through… ONE Department does not “agencies” Make! AND that cite of the assault weapons Ban being the cause of the departments going to the 40? TOTAL BULL since Law Enforcement was exempt to begin with. The FACT is WE went to the .40S&W Because of the excessive number of failures of the 9mm to effectively stop armed assailants. You and all the people who have never spent the extensive hours in combat, and have not attended the postmortems, where proper placement was used and the damage inflicted was NOT sufficient to stop an advancing assailant. It is gone on for long enough. Too many arm chair experts commenting without the experience to blow their own Noses. I have to question this “former officer’s” credentials based on three things: its an AGENCY, it has agents,,, his age, being former means he didn’t make it and washed out FAST, and
    I’ve Been through the program and you WILL NOT see me posting my name publicly

  • lgray0451

    TO DRAGON 5126 YOUR REPLY WITH NAME CALLING IS VERY IMMATURE AND BRAGGING ALSO NOT GOOD. I DO HAVE A NEWS FLASH THAT MANY FBI AGENTS STILL USE THE 10MM. AS FAR AS YOUR TITLE MAYBE IT IMPRESSES SOME BUT I WOULD HAVE TO SEE YOU SHOOT IN A STRESS SITUATION TO MAKE A JUDGEMENT. HAVE A GOOD DAY.

    • dragon5126

      Name calling? there was no name calling I simply stated fact. And you state Lies. Agents are prohibited from using anything but issued arms there are only two calibers issued 45acp to tac units and .40 S&W to all armed agents, so take your lies and crawls away

  • lgray0451

    TO DRAGON 5126 AGAIN. IN REREADING YOUR REPLY I CAN SEE YOU DON’T KNOW THE S&W 10MM WOULD NOT HANDLE THE AMMO AND THE RECEIVER WOULD CRACK. HENCE THE POLITICS OF THE 40 S&W. IF SHOOTERS WOULD HAVE WENT TO A GLOCK MODEL 20 THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN HAPPIER. PERSONALLY I PREFER THE 7.62X25 WHICH CAN DEFEAT MOST BODY ARMOR.

    • dragon5126

      Keep trying child,,, S&W didn’t MAKE the agency’s 10mm. they were all originally based on Colt’s 1911 pending bids which were all cancelled and no the 7.62×25 can not defeat most body armor it can only defeat class I body armor… And how can you, as ignorant as you are, say what would or wouldn’t make someone else happy? you chose the single firearm with the greatest record of detonations… you really are an ignorant ranting fool. aren’t you Ms CapMan?

    • dragon5126

      I see the site operators are deleting your posts and you are biting your tongue over it… very entertaining to say the least, Enjoy Ms Capman

  • lgray0451

    TO DRAGON5126
    I SEE I HAVE YOU UPSET AND DON’T MEAN TO. I ONLY KNOW WHAT I HAVE READ AND HEARD SO I APPRECIATE YOUR INPUT. NOT EVERYTHING ON THE NET IS TRUE. LIKE I ALSO HEARD A RANGE MASTER AT QUANTICO IS A POSITION CREATED FOR PEOPLE WHO DID NOT MAKE IT IN THE FBI AND IN YOUR CASE FLUNKED YOUR SYC EVALUATION BECAUSE NO REAL REAL FBI AGENT WOULD CALL ANY AMERICAN CITIZEN THE NAMES ETC YOU HAVE CALLED ME. BUT STILL HAD SOME SOMEBODY PULLING FOR THEM: IS THIS TRUE.

    • dragon5126

      Moron, I am a Range Master because Of my age, a field agent is a young mans game and further to demonstrate to the people here that you have an exceedingly limited mental capacity , the term is PSYCH, not syc. as in PSYCHOLOGICAL evaluation, and on that you fail again because no agent would carry credentials without passing. As for being an American Citizen? You act more like a degenerate animal, beneath contempt and have earned no respect so none is given, so crawl back under your rock

  • lgray0451

    YES YOU ARE RIGHT AND IN LOOKING AT IT DON’T KNOW WHY I SAID IT. I AM SORRY. I AM NOT A GOOD TYPIST SO HENCE THE CAPS. JUST A BLUE COLLAR WORKER BUT A WORKER.

    • dragon5126

      CAPS have NOTHING to do with your typing, they do not change the size of the keys, and if you are truly handicapped, which you seem, go into your display settings and change them for the visually handicapped so you are not disrupting the rest of the tread… your excuse is fabricated and invalid

  • Lui

    Personally I carry a 1911, and I do so instead of my 9mm, only because of one thing, I love my 1911. Tacticaly the 9, a good 9 that is, would be a better choice. it’s not like if you get hit with a 9mm you laugh it off. Either way, a 9 will take you down and so will the 45. The advantage of the 9 is, when I have to reload my 45, I would still have 5 more rounds in my 9. So a 45 drops you on the spot and you take a step backward with the 9 then drop, you still drop. Also, the larger bullet may equal better stopping power, but the the larger the bullet most of the time can mean less penetration. Other factors like full jacket, semi jacket or no jacket can come into play also. The larger cross section of the bullet means the energy is spread out over a larger area when it hits. Good when shooting flesh, not so good if you have to shoot through glass to get to the flesh on the other side.

    • dragon5126

      How much penetration do you think you need on the human body? Seriously? A nine mm will not penetrate automotive windshields, very few rounds will and if they do they generally lose enough velocity to lose any lethal power. And next shooting at a window believe it or not you DO risk a deflection unless you are at a 90 degree angle to the glass and it is truly perpendicular to the bore of the gun. The fiction on tv and in the movies is exactly that Fiction… Google up the footage of the cops shooting at the black woman and her kids fleeing in the van in New Mexico I believe. You will see an officer putting everything he has into trying to break a side window with his PR-24 and failing miserably

  • Discoveror

    When it comes all down to ‘shot placement’, all one needs is a .22 ! … verified by the assassins.

    • dragon5126

      overused and under validated… .22s used to assassinate people are fired from true point blank (distance below the point at which the bullet starts to drop) range… Lets see that Shot placement from twenty feet when the target is shooting back and you don’t have time to use the sights

    • BeGe1

      Except the “shot placement” argument is specifically used with calibers with similar enough terminal ballistics that shot placement really is the only difference, indicating that in those instances you should then shoot whatever you shoot best or has most capacity, etc. .22’s do not have similar enough terminal ballistics to 9mm, .40, .45 that “shot placement” is the only thing left that actually matters to the terminal ballistics. They do not have the similar enough expansion/energy/bone penetrating/flesh penetrating terminal ballistics for such a statement to apply.

      • dragon5126

        incorrect. the 9mm does not have similar terminal ballistics to the .45 or .40 the only reason the .40 is similar to the .45 is due to higher velocity, in fact the 9mm is inferior to the .38 spl… talk to any of the vets from the sandbox about the poor performance of it some time…

        • BeGe1

          That’s FMJ, and a whole different argument. To get an idea of modern defensive ammo one would get further talking to agencies that actually use it. And in those, for every story of 9mm performing poorly, there’s one of .45 performing just as poorly. Heck, if we’re gonna go anecdotal, I remember one story of an officer putting 11 rounds of .45 defensive ammo into someone coming at him, and getting stabbed while he reloaded. He survived, and switched to 9mm. Why? Because in the end 9mm, .40, and .45 all suck…but at least with 9mm you get a few more chances to get that perfect hole that happens to hit something that will cause a quick incapacitation.

          • CommonCents

            I had to scroll this far down and wade through rivers of crap to find the first piece of historical data used in common sense. BeGe1 is absolutely correct. Close thread

          • Scott Esse

            where do you see historical data? he only cited rumor…

          • Scott Esse

            common cents? more like common core…

          • Scott Esse

            the projectile design has nothing to do with ballistic performance, it only affects TERMINAL ballistics ( what happens after the bullet hits it’s target ) You neglect the transfer of energy to the target in every instance when you compare a 9mm favorably to a .40 or .45 since the heaviest 9mm is far lighter than the lightest .40 and .45 caliber rounds

          • BeGe1

            And we were talking about terminal ballistics…do you read anything you’re replying to?

          • dragon5126

            wrong child, penetration is not terminal ballistics.. Too bad you are one of thos inexperienced tools who has an extremely high, unearned opinion of yourself and all you have learned on the discovery channel

          • BeGe1

            Just wow. Even in your own comment you called it “terminal ballistics”. And terminal ballistics is the study of what a projectile does and the effects is has when it hits its target. The penetration that projectile has in that target is absolutely a part of terminal ballistics.

          • Scott Esse

            no he didn’t he said “the 9mm does not have similar terminal ballistics to the .45 or .40” You failed reading class in grade school, didnt you?

          • BeGe1

            So…when someone says that the terminal ballistics of some rounds are or aren’t similar to each other, they are NOT discussing terminal ballistics? Whether or not you agree with what they are saying about the terminal ballistics, terminal ballistics is still what the conversation is about…

            Someone had issues with grade school reading here…but it wasn’t me.

          • Scott Esse

            Not when they don’t know the difference between ballistics and terminal ballistics. Penetration is not the end all of terminal ballistics, it barely scratches the beginning of them, BUT one again that wasn’t what was stated. You don’t even know what you had said, and are too ignorant to go back and double check, instead, you correct as you go and pretend you said it to begin with, just like the coward you are. When you finish your remedial reading course and your testicles drop you can sit at the adults table

          • BeGe1

            Speaking of remedial reading courses, I already addressed this:

            And we were not talking about solely penetration, so I’m not sure why you’re acting like we were (in fact, I believe all the specific subsets I mentioned were “expansion/energy/bone penetrating/flesh penetrating”, though I hardly was limiting it even to those things, only listing some concepts of terminal ballistics for the effect of pointing that the similarities were many faceted).

            Considering I even quoted the bit of text in question, it’s a bit ironic that you’d then accuse me of not going back to read my own comment about it.

          • Scott Esse

            and you keep repeating it even though its been addressed and disproven due to fallacy on your part

          • Scott Esse

            you really need to follow the discussion punk, but then again your inability to read properly may be the problem, or your issue with that pathological lying

          • Scott Esse

            You obviously don’t know the difference between external and terminal ballistics. since the 9mm doesn’t approach either when compared to the ,40. an is only close to the external ballistics of the .45…. so stop talking out your ass

          • BeGe1

            It’s the opinions of the experts in the field that I’m using. The experts are the ones saying that modern defense ammo has closed up the issues that previously existed in 9mm, and because of that the terminal effects of 9mm in modern defense ammo is now practically indiscernible from .40 and .45. Stuff changes. 20 years ago I would have said to get a .45. Now, I say if you like 9mm better, just get quality ammo.

          • Scott Esse

            No it isn’t the opinion of the experts. its YOUR uneducated and inexperienced opinion. The same technology applied to the .40 and .45 by nature of greater diameter and mass had increased that gap exponentially, leaving the 9mm far behind, where trained monkeys such as your self think it is so great, The fact is NO great advances have occurred that closed any gaps because they are applied across the board, and when you add the factors of greater mass into the equation the 9mm will always fall behind. Live with it. Its called Physics

          • BeGe1

            They are not applied across the board actually. 9mm previously had consistency issues with reliable expansion/penetration depth that .40 and .45 simply did not have. The bullet construction advances that made much of the modern 9mm defense ammo consistently go to proper depths with good expansion and full energy transfer solved an issue in 9mm that simply didn’t exist in .40 and .45 at the time. Solving an issue that exists in 1 round but not the other 2 does not benefit “across the board”, almost all the benefit is seen from that 1 round. With that advancement closing the gap, the difference terminal effectiveness in general of modern 9mm became close enough to .40 and .45 as to become basically indistinguishable. The diameters, energies, weights involved are too small of a difference to make a huge difference all on their own. If we were talking about a .20 caliber vs. a .50, then maybe there would be enough difference in diameter to make an appreciable difference. If we were talking about 200 ft/lbs vs 500 ft/lbs then the same, or 50 grain projectile vs. 200 grains. But we’re not. We’re talking about .35″ vs. .40″ and in some cases even overlap in the energies and weights in use between them. Since none of them have enough energy to cause any appreciably effective hydraulic shock, and all 3 of them have energy to destroy any human organ/bone in the engineered 12″-14″ depth of travel that defense loads in all 3 of them are shown to frequently travel, and the diameters/weights/energies are so close, it simply comes down to whether the shot manages to hit something that will be immediately incapacitating or not. Which of the 3 you choose to do it will have an effect so minor as to be a non-consideration. If you shoot .40, choose it. If you shoot 9mm better, choose it.

  • Gunluvr

    Most of us here have never shot anybody with a handgun so the “stopping power” statements are academic and relative unless you have personal experience along this line.

    • dragon5126

      Which is why you need to listen to LOGIC when you hear it, unlike mouths like Discoveror below

    • Scott Esse

      Some of us have had the misfortune of actually having to use lethal force, and are NOT stating “academic arguments” I can personally affirm that there are at least two hear who know what they are talking about.

  • Guest

    ‘ll stick with my 45….Having shot a person several years ago with a 9mm while in L.E. With the amount of shots it took to stop him I’d rather have the extra stopping power of my 45. While I will agree with the recoil issue and shot placement.

    But unless you get a “heart shot” a crack head does not care if he is shot….You better knock him down…When it comes to my safety, budgets don’t enter into it….

    • dragon5126

      As another who has been there done that, it seems to be an impossible task to get across to the non initiated that “shot placement” doesn’t happen on the street. In my instance the perp was a methhead, eight rounds of Corbon +p 45 ACP… I ended up with a stiletto in my ribs for my effort. I went to the .40 for the extra rounds. I don’t like getting stuck during a reload

      • BeGe1

        I think the point of the “shot placement” argument is to illustrate that no matter what caliber you use, the common pistol rounds are so similar that it will either be effective or not effective based almost solely on where it lands, regardless of if you’re using .45, .40, or 9mm. It is not an argument saying that you shouldn’t need many rounds because you should be more accurate than to need them, which seems to be what you’re refuting.

        • dragon5126

          no one is refuting that shot placement can do the job, however, human physiology is discounted with the argument of shot placement. and the effects of the adrenalin dump are totally ignored. Both of which counter the guaranty that shot placement will be viable. pick up any anatomical diagram with overlays of the lungs and heart and circulatory system and examine them closely. and bear in mind ONLY the pulmonary arteries, aorta and heart are the structures in the center od mass that will bring about a near instant stop when hit solidly and not just nicked, and also look at the brain, the brain stem, medulla oblongata, is the portion of the brain that needs to be destroyed for an instant kill. This demonstrates how small the areas are that need to be hit for a one shot stop. It also shows how just a small difference in the size of an expanded round can mean an instant kill or the time the perp has to shoot back and fatally wound you before succumbing to their own wounds. In short there is a trinity involved in what creates a proper defensive round. This is base diameter, expanded diameter and velocity of the round. when the trinity comes together in what could be visualized as a equilateral triangle you have the theoretical perfect round. To date any rounds that have come close have been hampered by the outside factor of controllability for follow up shots. So we are looking at somewhere between the .40 S&W and the .45 ACP as the closest to it.

        • Scott Esse

          shot placement isn’t all that possible in a real firefight, which is what too many people refuse to realize until they get into one. On the range your targets are not moving 3 ft in the time it takes you to squeeze the trigger, that means what was a cardiac placement became a total miss… they can literally turn and cause you to miss or just graze them. your ability to track and double tap is also compromised by their movement. Watch the Matrix, and realize that the majority of the movements (other than the obvious impossible moves) are simply exaggerated real life moves. Then consider where the vital organs are in the human body. And you will see why higher power rounds are at least equal in importance to shot placement as a marginalized hit will still have some effect due to energy transfer which is just as important as the size of the wound itself. If you want the real facts on power and take down, step away from the “human target” and start studying medium to large game hunting. No place in history has so many resources been expended on the study of the “one shot take down”, You will find the facts on the search for bullet diameter, weight and velocity and how they all come together in a balance to lessen wounding and increase the true terminal ballistics. The bottom line is an experienced deer hunter will laugh at a 9mm when the .40 or .45 is available. And it will be due to proven knowledge and experience, not speculation

          • BeGe1

            Did you read the exchange at all? I was clarifying the term in this context showing that it did NOT just mean to “shoot better”. They are arguing that the same shot placement, whatever it happens to end up being, whether it is a good one or a bad one, will have similar effect out of those calibers…therefore choosing one over the other based on terminal performance alone is pointless. The argument is that a shot to a place with a .45 that would stop the fight would also stop it with a 9mm, and a shot to a place with a 9mm that would not stop the fight would also not stop it with a .45. The argument itself has nothing to do with the things you are rebuking. Whether you think that argument is correct or not is one thing…but having the basic reading comprehension to understand the argument being made is another thing.

            Though, I find your comment on the experienced deer hunter thing a bit humorous. I am an extremely experienced deer hunter. I know dozens of experienced deer hunters. If you showed up to deer camp with a 9mm, .40, or .45 you would be the butt of jokes the whole time you were there. Experienced deer hunters don’t hunt with a .45. All 3 are weak, that’s just the simple truth. And the slight differences between them simply don’t make much of a difference, if any.

          • dragon5126

            its funny how you make every effort to discount real world proof on living tissue, real world battle field proof and the fact of bullet diameter and weight differences in effective power. This alone busts out your lies as exactly that. lies. You see the 9mm is the same diameter and weight as the .35 Remington, the .40 the same as the .401 Winchester. How does it feel to prove yourself an ignorant and lying Poser? Facts don’t lie but posers do, and as for hunting with these calibers? in handguns? 9mm magnum developed for the Wildey handgun, .45 win mag, and 10mm. are all the ballistic equivalents in comparison to the 9mm para. .45acp and the 10mm. Its really sad when a moron tries to argue ballistics with people who have practiced then longer than the moron has been of momma’s titty.

          • BeGe1

            Wow, speaking of lying, it is very obvious that we are talking about 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP, and using the shorthand terms for the 3 (9mm, .40, and .45 respectively). Do you seriously have to twist what is being said THAT much in order to try to get the argument shifting your direction? We are not talking about .35 Remington and .401 Winchester…just wow.

          • Scott Esse

            you are the one who is twisting the truth, You went around telling people I was advocating use of the three handgun calibers for deer hunting, But right here it proves your abject stupidity as this proves your ignorance in the field of ballistics since you cant understand the comparison between the calibers, NOW TAKE YOUR JUVENILE ANTICS ELSEWHERE. CHILD

          • BeGe1

            Actually I said you were advocating the use of 2, not 3. You said that a deer hunter would choose .45 and .40 (count them) over 9mm. I stated that any experienced deer hunter (myself included) would laugh at anyone using any of the 3.

          • Scott Esse

            how does it feel to be caught in your lies asshole? you see I never said anything about using any of the calibers for any hunting nor did I make any comparisons, But I lead into it to let you show everyone that you are a bold faced liar and tell me that I did, It was dragon who made the weight/caliber comparison dumbass, I just used it to twist you up and out you for the Liar that you are, and it worked PERFECTLY

          • Scott Esse

            keep kicking juniors ass, eventually he will be too embarrassed to come back. By the way email me with your address, I’d like to send you my copy of your book to have you autograph it. This punk would shit if he knew who you really are!

          • Scott Esse

            I’ll tell you what PUNK, my real world experience against your imagined. Ive been nice to you so far but the bottom line is you do not know shit, You are an internet poser who hasn’t had experience further than punching paper. IF that. Your commentary has indicted your mouth through contradiction and pure stupidity The fact is YOU don’t even have ANY experience hunting deer, since you don’t have a clue about bullet weight and delivered energy. You are nothing but a bilithering idiot with third grad reading comprehension skills at best. No go ask mommy to untie the apron strings and let you play outside for the first time in your life poser… Your give away was the “I’m an extremely experienced deer hunter” bullshit. A real hunter would have responded with how many deer he harvested and how many years experience he has, showing you have NONE

          • BeGe1

            So you’re sticking by your comment that .40 S&W and .45 ACP are good deer calibers that hunters often use…yet you’re saying that I’m the guy with nothing but internet experience?

          • Scott Esse

            Show me where I ever said the .40S&W or the .45 ACP were good deer calibers that hunters often use? You Are a fucking moron and fabricator. Now one more time, just for your limited mentality, ASK ANY DEER HUNTER ABOUT BULLET WEIGHT. the 9mm is the lightest round of the three being discussed, therefore it transfers the lowest amount of energy. Now you not only have shown your stupidity, you have demonstrated your inability to comprehend what you read

          • BeGe1

            I personally have put 150 grain .30-06 loads through both shoulders of an elk…something that nowadays hunter wisdom says can only be done with 180’s, or some even go so far as to say 200’s or 220’s. There are differences, but they are not as pronounced as new age internet wisdom would have you believe.

            The difference between a 147 grain 9mm load (common defense load) and a 155 grain .40 load (another common defense load) is simply not large enough to make noticeable a difference, especially when the energies and weights involved can easily bust up anything in the human body.

            I like this little gem though: “the 9mm is the lightest round of the three being discussed, therefore it transfers the lowest amount of energy.” Really? It’s that simple eh? So my 147 grain M80 ball loads from my .308 transfer the same amount of energy as a 147 grain 9mm? Can it really be that simple?

            Answer: no, it’s not. There’s a lot more to it than weight. .40 does transfer more energy, but not because of weight. There are heavier loads out there than either of them that have less energy to transfer. Both penetrate to similar depths designed to not leave the body, and when that happens successfully both loads transfer all of their energy, however much that may be…whether you’re using a 135 grain .40 load or a 147 grain 9mm load (notice how I chose an example where the .40 weighed less…the weight ranges are so close they friggin overlap). The .40 has more energy to transfer (on average, there is actually overlap in the common energy ranges of 9mm and .40 loads too) because it has more powder (on average), not because of the bullet weight, and that difference is simply not enough to be appreciable. In other words: it’s a little ridiculous to look at two cartridges and say that one is completely and utterly inferior to the other because of bullet weight and energy…when their range of bullet weights and energies are actually close enough to overlap. The difference between them just isn’t as large as you make it out to be, and with modern bullet construction making the 9mm performance more consistent, it means that the terminal differences between them is now not enough to justify choosing one over the other for terminal effect alone. Choose which one you shoot better. If that’s .40, great. If it’s 9mm, great.

          • Scott Esse

            how big was the tree that calf was tied to? and as for your 9 vs 40 comment ?
            V E L O C I T Y Can you say Velocity? come on child sound it out/
            And remember ENERGY EQUALS MAS TIMES VELOCITY SQUARED You Can do the math little boy, now can’t you?

      • tricolordad

        Are you sure he didn’t stab you in the brain?

        • Scott Esse

          anyone else out there enjoying this potheads attempt at humor? yeah, me neither…

  • Herbert Collar

    hey Jason i carry a 1911 9mm every body is all the time is tel me that it will not go through a car door or a windshield but i shoot at 3/quarter plywood target board it goes through it so what is give the 9mm a bad rap! Herbert Collar

    • dragon5126

      you can not use plywood as a barrier comparison, the differences in adhesives, the cross grain patterns the quality of the wood overlays and more. Just because it supplies a specified structural strength, does not mean it supplies a specific puncture factor.

  • Dirt Diver

    My department had four ois with our 9 mm and the moped lived. We switched to 40s. We had three oid and all three moped met the maker. Give me a 40 over a 9 any day. If you can’t hit what you aim at with any weapon, run away because you a danger to yourself and others.

  • phantom2

    I favor the 9mm over the larger calibers simply for it’s versatility ( carry it concealed when I go out and openly in a holster at my security guard job.) also living in an apartment building it’s tendency not to over penetrate.That said however I do want to add a .40 S&W Glock to my collection.

  • Milto

    Lots of great comments out here! Personally I like the 10mm. Mine holds 15 rounds, and I feel more ready to encounter the bad guy. Like one of the earlier posts, what you are comfortable with makes up for a lot of ballistic differences.

  • Milto

    Like FrontSight says, you are only half as good in a real life gun battle as you are any good day at the range with a paper target shooting back at you!

    • dragon5126

      you left out the qualifier on that statement, WHEN TRAINED IN COMBAT SHOOTING… How many of these people are even trained in shooting beer cans?

      • tricolordad

        Aahhh, now I get it. You’re one of those people who handles firearms while drinking. It explains your diarrhea of the mouth. BTW, this is a website, not a barstool.

        • Scott Esse

          Keep at it POSER everyone here now knows you are an angry gun hater who has never handled a gun
          The statement “shooting beer cans” is a commentary directed at armchair warriors, people who have never even loaded a firearm, like the guy you see every time you look in a mirror.

    • Scott Esse

      Do NOT trust Front sight. Ive evaluated (attended) every single course offered. Other than their most basic marksmanship programs they were all a joke. I was even insulted and derided when I out shot and out performed the instructors. When I turned down a job offer by “Dr”. Piazza I was verbally accosted by the mental midgets they call instructors, my firearms choices derided even though they were offered as part of the course the following session. It is just a thug based mentality used for profit and pretention.

  • Anthony James

    In other words.

  • carynflo

    In our Area 9mm take easily in every where this is basic reason. Tell me about your Area most of shooter use 9mm.

    • Scott Esse

      In a SHTF scenario, you want to be armed with firearms that use the most common ammo. If you are looking at military as “most common” it is one thing. if you are looking at PD it is another (based on the US) However the basis of this discussion is not a collapse of society, TEOTWAWKI event

  • jgrues

    “Stopping power” and “pistol” do not go together in the same sentence. That’s an instant credibility killer. Bodies don’t stop and drop while taking pistol rounds to the chest. Unless you plant a round right in the t-zone of the face (between the pupils, below the eye-brows, along the bridge of the nose), a full-sized running man is not “stopping.” While I agree with agencies switching to 9mm, it’s not because it has “equal stopping power” but because it’s just as effective with less fell recoil, higher capacity, and easier to shoot under stress no matter the training level of the individual. Simply put, the force of impact placed upon a body will be no greater than the recoil felt by the shooter. The FBI has conducted a load of ballistics research and if you’ve read any of it, you’d never use the word “stopping power” in an article like this again. “Stopping power” and “.338” is a discussion worth having though.

    • Scott Esse

      much bs in his post as well the intra ocular zone he calls the t zone is not an instant drop, it simply removes the ability of the target to react as a human, and in many cases people HAVE survived this, as this is essentially a ballistic lobotomy. The only head shot that truly guarantees death is one that takes out the brain stem, aka medulla oblongata. This is located at the top of the neck, at the base of the skull. This is why the proverbial “Mozambique Drill” (two to the com and one between the eyes) uses the LAST shot to the head, not the first. ANY head shot is problematic due to the risk of a miss due to the small size of the target, the risk of missing due to minor angular variations and the fact that the target’s minor movements can change the probability of any hit at all. So you see, with just simple analysis it proves that his was just another armchair post.

  • jbourneidentity

    Most .40 caliber mags hold as many rounds as 9mm mags and are also high capacity. I fail to see merit in your assertion that it was a financial gain for gun makers. The .40 was borne of the FBI’s proclamation that the 9mm 115 grain Silvertip that failed to immediately stop Platt in Miami was an “ammunition failure.” This was followed by many failures of the 9mm 147 grain JHP. Police departments were fed up and went to the .40 because it held the same number of rounds as the 9mm with greater stopping power than the 9mm rounds available in the early 90s. Agencies are switching back to the 9mm because of economic reasons and because PC hiring practices have resulted in non shooting yuppies landing federal LE jobs and these yuppies have problems handling the bigger round.

    • Scott Esse

      the 9mm is ONLY being “restored” due to PC factors, that much is true, but it has nothing to do with the ability of the of the officers. Its the idea that larger caliber firearms are not necessary and that the officers shouldn’t kill anyone needlessly. This is the result of too many liberals in the position as top cops, and nothing more. As people are becoming more and more upset, and more situations like Ferguson MO, happen across the nation the trend will reverse. Had the dirtbag in MO had dropped with only one shot the community would have been half as upset, and most likely not have rioted, and only protested, as in their limited intellects they would not have seen it as an assassination and use of excessive force.

  • Bill K

    There is NO evidence to back up any of the claims in this article. From a ballistic viewpoint the same advances that have helped the 9mm have helped all calibers. The 40 S&W is capable of being loaded to much higher power levels then the 9mm and often from weapons similar in size to the 9mm.
    However, heavier projectiles and higher power levels create recoil that effect the weakest members(mainly female officers) of police departments. That is more likely the reason to change.

    The 40 S&W is a great choice for short barrel pistols for someone who can handle it. Take the Kahr PM40 as an example. It pushes a 155-165 gr at a velocity of 1250 fps out of a pocket pistol as small as some 380 models easily able to push above 500 FT LBS of energy.
    Is it necessary to go above 9mm power levels? That is another matter and is based on many factors in my humble opinion. But it is absurd to claim a 9mm is equal in any way to the 40 S&W. A 9mm may expand but the 40 will never shrink. I own both so I am not taking sided.

  • Scott Esse

    Jackass this is all irrelevant to the fact that the limb binding had nothing to do with being shot in the torso which soldiers were trained to do. IF You were EVER in the military YOU would know that, there fore you would know that every argument you made about the moro is moot and bullshit, and infact proves you to be a POSER

    • Scott Esse

      Hmmm, he had no come back to being called out on the facts,,, You can always tell a liberal, you just cant tell them much, and when they are under cover they love calling conservatives who know what they are talking about, liberals. You notice he took his own advice and shut up when he was called out on lack of military training and the fact that binding limbs has nothing to do with being shot center of mass. Gun haters never get the facts right when it comes to how to shoot, where to aim and How to take down an opponent. That’s why they are so much fun to laugh at

  • Scott Esse

    try again,,, go back and LOOK at the circumstance of the shooting, sow that the breakage of the glass was the result of the bullet passing through the plane of the barrier and that it wasn’t the subsequent rounds that penetrated once the glass shattered. AND before you bother going that far, prove the veracity of your source

    • BeGe1

      A bit ironic that you ask me to prove the veracity of the source when you made claims about it without even reading it. 9mm was the first round fired, pictures right there of 1 windshield hole and 1 hole in the target. Not to mention…you realize even .22LR goes through a windshield…right? Look it up, there’s videos.

      • Scott Esse

        Keep tryin’, & keep Lyin… and keep losing Poser

        • BeGe1

          Google “.22 LR vs windshield” for yourself and watch the video. And that’s with standard velocity .22 LR, not even the now normal high velocity. I’m sorry, but anyone that honestly thinks 9mm won’t go through a windshield just needs to never speak about ballistics of any type ever again.

          • Scott Esse

            like I said, research the circumstances of the shooting MORON, get your facts straight and compare apples to apples and oranges to oranges, and then actually SHOOT a gun for the first time in your life, Armchair.

          • BeGe1

            So educate me as to the circumstances. Each bullet in the video passed through every time through its own hole, from first to last. Seems to me like I can find tests of pretty much anything, including 9mm and even the lowly .22 standard velocity, going through windshields, but can’t find any true evidence of a 9mm failing to go through a windshield, nevertheless evidence supporting the outright assertion that “A nine mm will not penetrate automotive windshields”. What circumstances make it wrong to say that 9mm goes through windshields?

            If you were to say it deflects a bit more or something like that, I could give you a win on that. But to outright say that 9mm doesn’t go through a windshield…well, considering that every bit of video, imagery, or article that I can find refutes that, you’ve got a pretty high burden for your “circumstances” to dispel it. They go through. First shot to last shot, they go through just fine each time.

          • Scott Esse

            you still haven’t posted any links to this imaginary video… but that’s ok we know it doesn’t exist, at least in the format you claim

  • Scott Esse

    the difference between being a know it all and knowing what you are talking about? Getting your facts straight. Dragon is Correct. Here you go Knowitall:

    “The Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA) is a United States federal law, enacted in 2004, that allows two classes of persons—the “qualified law enforcement officer” and the “qualified retired law enforcement officer”—to carry a concealed firearm in any jurisdiction in the United States, regardless of state or local laws, with certain exceptions.

    The act was introduced during the 108th Congress as H.R. 218 and enacted as Public Law 108-277.[1] The law was later amended by the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act Improvements Act of 2010 (S. 1132, Public Law 111-272),[2] and Section 1099C of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2013 (H.R. 4310, Public Law 112-239).[3] It is codified within the provisions of the Gun Control Act of 1968 as 18 USC §§ 926B[4] and USC §§ 926C.[5]”
    You notice it isn’t called HR anything? Dragon was correct, Charmin. I suggest you apologize to him, AND THEN look at who ran Congress with absolute veto power over GW, (even before the democrats took over the RINOS gave them power) and could veto any and everything he did, and with their over ride, his signature was a simple formality for paperwork, no matter if HE authorized it or not. It is truly PATHETIC that people such as yourself don’t follow how where and WHY laws are passed. Its time to stop being an Obamazite, and start looking at the names of who voted and stop pointing fingers.

  • eric thees

    Some say that 40 puts more wear on the guns. Well all 40 is high pressure no plus p needed. Now are these departments going shoot plus p or standard pressure 9mm. I’m sure they will use plus be for practice as well .A steady diet of 9mm plus p will wear a 9mm gun faster just like standard pressure 40.

  • Andy

    Mississippi Highway Patrol has gone back to the 9mm , after having switched to the .40 caliber back when it first came out , then changing to the Sig.357 a few years ago . They did elaborate testing with the 9mm and found that the new 9mm loads perform as good as the two before mentioned calibers , plus the fact that practice and qualifying ammo , even along with duty ammo is less expensive that the other two calibers , I myself a tax payer congratulate the MHP on this change because they still have a great defensive round , but they also are putting less of a burden on us taxpayers . Be prepared and ready . Keep your powder dry .

  • Marcos Mora

    “it’s because gun manufacturers wanted to make money and so they made the police departments an offer they couldn’t resist” yes, but this was the consequence, not the cause. I put the full blame on the 1994 ban, a law that should have not existed in the first place.

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