Indiana Considers an Upper Tier CCW Permit

Indiana Considers an Upper Tier CCW Permit
Indiana Considers an Upper Tier CCW Permit
Indiana Considers an Upper Tier CCW Permit
Indiana Considers an Upper Tier CCW Permit

There are a number of firearms bills currently under consideration in the 2013 Indiana Legislative Session.  But I believe one bill needs special notation.

Senate Bill SB555 was proposed by State Senator Brandt Hershman (R, District 7 and also the Majority Floor Leader).  You should also know that I’m the guy that asked my Senator to propose SB555.  And for only one reason, and that is that I would like my CCW to be recognized by as many other states as possible.

Yes, I have an Indiana Lifetime Carry Permit and I have also a Non-resident Utah Permit.  The Utah permit is not a piece of pink paper I could make on my printer at home as is issued currently in Indiana.  The Utah permit is like my driver’s license, with my picture, all my valid information such as date of birth and address … and yes it required me to take a class for issue.  And, guess what?  That Utah permit is valid in 5 more states than my Indiana permit even as a non-resident.

Please understand the request I made of my Senator never intended for a new permit to replace the current Indiana CCW!  Nor, was it intended to revoke having an Indiana lifetime issued CCW.  It was and is to be an optional permit for those who choose to apply for one.  I even suggested that the endorsement could be a symbol placed upon your driver’s license – if cost was the issue.

Why are some states not willing to recognize the current Indiana CCW permit?

  • There is no picture proving you are the person listed
  • There is no training (or better proof you know how a gun operates) requirement
  • Because it is never re-validated, the information could be wrong.  And also a person might even have done something that would not allow them to even own a firearm – NOW.

An Indiana CCW permit holder may never travel, but as a consultant I travel constantly so having my CCW recognized by as many states as possible is important to me.  And, if other residents of Indiana even vacation outside of Indiana , it might be important to them as well.  So I really hope that SB555 passes and we all have access to a second tier Carry Permit!

Two primary concerns seem to be floating around fueled by bloggers in Indiana, so let’s examine both questions:

  1.  If this passes some other states might chose to only accept the upper tier CCW from Indiana!

That certainly is a possibility, but in return if you can travel to a distant state and have your CCW honored in all of the states you pass through and also include the state you wish to visit, would that not be an advantage?  Remember you would not lose your funny pink paper lifetime permit honored in Indiana.  This would mean not having to unload your firearm and keep the firearm and the ammunition in totally separated locked compartments as required under Federal Transport Regulations.   I don’t know about you but I always feel my risk of needing self-defense options is greater when I travel, simply because unlike when I’m home, I don’t always know that a certain area is unsafe.

Ok, so we all know that Chicago is unsafe!

As you are on USA Carry’s site you might access the concealed carry permit reciprocity maps just to see where your CCW is honored and where it is not – then see how many more states are added if your permit is from a state that requires training and qualification, a pictured ID on the permit and recently verified information.  Try Indiana resident and then try say Kentucky just to see what states are then added.

  1. If training is now required that is a reduction of our 2nd Amendment rights!

Consider the following:

  • Every time someone deemed to not be a criminal is killed even accidentally with a firearm all “law abiding” gun owners suffer. One need only look at the current situation caused by Newtown/Sandy Hook to see this reaction. But even the guy who kills for example his child when cleaning a gun gets amplified in the media.
  • When the only knowledge a person has about firearms comes from the movies, TV and video games – would you trust that person with a loaded firearm around you or your children?  I hope not, as “drama” trumps reality every time a show gets created!  And consider this, I teach firearms courses at the Linden Conservation Club. One day we had a couple come to the Club with an AR-15 and 4 boxes of .223 ammo that they had just purchased asking some members sitting on the porch, “We just bought this can you show us how to use it?”  That is still talked about by Club Members.
  • As an NRA Instructor, I have actually refused to certify a couple of individuals because no matter how I tried to get them to understand basic safety – they would fiddle and play with loaded pistols – pointing them toward other class members – load their pistol when others were down range ahead of them – and even try drawing their loaded pistol with others down range of them. Would you seriously like to have those people putting your 2nd Amendment rights at risk, just to say training is an intrusion on my freedoms?
  • Finally, YES!  There is evidence that a “lack of a training requirement” is preventing Indiana’s CCW from being more widely accepted.

By this time those that think that any attempt to make rules is against the 2nd Amendment are most likely thinking, who is this guy anyway?  So let me tell you a bit about myself:

I am a Patron level / Life Member of the NRA.  My wife is a member of the NRA and typically hosts a table at the local FNRA Annual Dinner honoring the 4H Shooting Sports Instructors.  Two of my sons are Life members of the NRA and my middle son works in the firearms area at our local Gander Mountain store and he also teaches our 4H Black Powder program. So as a family we have a lot invested in preserving our 2nd Amendment rights!

I had one person who was arguing against the new upper level permit now under debate tell me, “I carry in other states that don’t recognize our permit.  I just don’t tell them!”  I pointed out in many of those state carrying a loaded firearm without a recognized permit is considered a Felony, and if you are convicted of a Felony (no matter in which state) , under Indiana law you would not only lose your Indiana right to carry but even the right to own a firearm.

As for me, I want access to all of my rights and to have them where ever I may have to travel — even Illinois, New York, and California when they re-join the union of states who recognize all of rights illuminated in the US Constitution.

Indiana Senate Bill SB555 by Luke McCoy

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Van Phillips uses his long university teaching teaching experience as an NRA Pistol Instructor offering numerous yearly classes in Central Indiana for adults. He is also a 4H Pistol and Shotgun Instructor, CMP and SCTP Coach. Van is a competitive clay target shooter active in both ATA Trap and Sporting Clays. While he teaches pistol to adults so that through knowledge they can be better and safer firearms owners, his passion is empowering the youth who represent the future for continuation of 2nd Amendment and Concealed Carry rites!
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Chris R.

There should not be a third class / tier of permits , this permit should have the same features on it (ie picture, look similar to the state driver license ) and if current laws in forced (for the wrong/ loss of status) , Indiana is teeny yrs behind every where else in its fake looking permits , but don’t tie it to drivers lincense , needs to be seperate

NRA Instructor

You suggestion sounds like the multi-level permit system Massachusetts had years ago with Firearms Identification cards (for possession of long arms) and then a License to Carry (for handguns). The FID was granted for life, the LTC has to be renewed every six years. A few years ago the FID was converted to a renewable license, and the number of total permits (FID + LTC) went from 1.5 million down to about 280,000

The best multi-state (non-resident) permits are Florida and Utah. Florida is based on your home-state carry permit, Utah requires their own course (but no range time) by a Utah-certified instructor (as you noted.)

Putting a notification on your driver’s license is a bad idea – any time you get stopped – a police office is liable to start asking you if you are carrying, and then all that goes with that. Very few states (Texas, for example) require a declaration to the LEO (for a traffic stop) if you are carrying. Why risk it?
Bottom line – for states you travel to frequently, it is best to get their non-resident carry permit. If you depend on reciprocity – better carry the letter from that state’s AG with you stating that your permit is recognized – most LEOs don’t know the fine points of reciprocity.


As a long time Hoosier now in Missouri, I am not sure I can appreciate your point. Adding another law for “requirements” that it give up a fundamental right is not needed. As a law abiding citizen of These United States, I should be free to carry anywhere. Are there people who shouldn’t handle a firearm? YES. Missouri has a written and firing test to pass. There are still those who I don’t trust, but they’ve got a right. Most of them can’t balance a check book let alone write a law that makes sense. I think you are playing with fire by bringing it up.


We need national reciprocity…just like driver’s licenses…The US Congress needs to act…

Brian Kelsey

Already in the Constitution. Art IV Sec. 1.


So if I’m reading the synopsis correctly, you could still get a lifetime reciprocity permit? (The state police would just check up on you every once in a while?).


SB 555 died in House committee. YESSSSS!


No. No. No. No. No. As an Indiana resident, a lifetime LTCH holder, and a person who travels, I will still not accept that IN must change in order to gain reciprocity. Why must we bend to the infringements of other states?

Why must we be forced to take a course to appease someone else, when the issue isn’t a lack of training, it’s a lack of personal responsibility? Your example of a couple asking to be taught how to use a firearm they just purchased juxtaposed with a statement about media and movies influencing firearms knowledge is weak. Apparently new firearms owners aren’t supposed to come to knowledgeable people to gain training? In one breath you say that people aren’t getting proper training, then berate people for attempting to get proper training.

I applaud you for not “certifying” people who are unsafe with firearms, but your opinion on their actions shouldn’t (and doesn’t) mean they lose their rights to self defense. If they do something later to injure or kill someone then they need to be punished under current laws.

When you attempt to limit rights to gain something, you leave the door wide open for further restrictions. Now, it’s taking a course and getting your picture taken. Next it’s taking a course, qualifying with firearms and having those listed, and your picture and fingerprints. Next…well you get the idea. Why should I give up freedom after freedom when it becomes something that’s never enough?

And no, I would not like the fact that I am licensed to carry a handgun noted on my driver’s license. For one, there might be times when I show my DL when my firearms aren’t a part of the discussion, and two, I don’t have to inform a police officer I am armed if I’m ever pulled over and adding it to my DL is a defacto must inform scheme.

And now, I’m going to blow your mind and tell you that the current license scheme in Indiana (and everywhere else) is unconstitutional. I recommend reading Murdock v. Pennsylvania. The USSC has stated that a license and fee to exercise a right guaranteed by the Constitution is unconstitutional.



As far as instruction goes who decides what instruction is appropriate? I have spent most of my military career in Law Enforcement and have some civilian time in LE as well plus I am a firearms instructor and maintainer for the AF. I would hope that this would be more than sufficient and not have to attend an outside class for an upper tier permit.

I do agree that there is a severe lack of quality training with many people who shoot, I see it all the time when I go to civilian ranges with my friends and kids.

I would also like to see a better CCW card that we have now.


Well, even though most people may agree that the federal government, in regard to regulatory laws is excessive and cumbersome. With that said, since firearms are regulated by state and federal laws, a permit from your home state should be required to be honored by all 50 states. The word “shall” or “will” would be used in a federal law to force the states to honor such permits. Your article points out excellent points about individual states’ requirements in issuing permits. This is where the problem begins (in my opinion). If the federal government was given the “power” to regulate permits, I would dare to say the “bar” would be set so high, nobody would qualify. I would compare this dilemma to our drivers’ licenses – every state has different laws of the road, such as “no right turn on red’, if you have your windshield wipers on, your headlights must be on etc. – the federal government has no say. Now, take the National Airspace System ….. the Federal Aviation Administration governs aviation operations with regulations that apply to every operator, pilots, mechanics etc. with volumes of rules on the national level. I’m a resident of Arizona, but I can honestly say that I do not know every other states laws regarding motor vehicle operation. I’m an airline pilot, and I assure you, the “rules” for flying in Arizona’s airspace, or any other state is the same. Even our currency is the same, states don’t have individual monetary systems. This being said, I don’t know how one would get lawmakers in 50 states to agree on a uniform set of requirements and laws pertaining to conceal carry. I really don’t want the Fed to control this for sure.


No, Van Phillips, we do NOT need another requirement added to our laws that pacify other states. The Reciprocity should be nation wide, WITHOUT any requirements and or loop holes a person has to jump through to attain it. I have a lifetime license and I know how to shoot, when to shoot, who to shoot , where to shoot and after it’s all over,,,,,why I shot! NO MORE LAWS…..Time to enforce the one’s we got now.


Geez, doesn’t it read “A well regulated (meaning trained) militia, being necessary …etc? and wasn’t that what the “Minute Men” were? So training is part of the “Well regulated Militia”!

Michael D. Stephan

Watch what you ask for. If I wanted to limit access to guns I would make the training so rigorous that few would pass. What yo and I quantify as training and a government quantifies may be different.


That article seemed to be from someone who is pretty impressed with himself and his family. He thinks he is the standard to which everyone should be at. Sorry to be so harsh, but I heard enough. Why don’t we have some one more ‘qualified’ than Van tell us how great he is and suggest an even higher proficiency.
As far as Indiana’s pink piece of paper I love it! That’s the way it should be everywhere. We are law abiding and shouldn’t have the government licensing what is a right to begin with. Hoo- ray for Indiana. This is always the problem, some comes along and wants to make things harder to the point they ruin the intended purpose. The left will love your increased mandates.


You lost me at Indiana CCW. Why would I pay attention to someone who can’t even get their terminology right? Indiana issues a LTCH (License To Carry a Handgun). It allows the holder to carry openly or concealed.

Kyle Stageberg

I agree with you with regards to the training
requirements. I think that those who want to exercise their rights should
be able to do so, so long as it does not put my rights in jeopardy at the same
time.. There are far too many that are not responsible gun owners and
that is all anyone ever hears about. We don’t hear enough about those
responsible gun owners who take the time for proper training. Proper
training isn’t just a fuzzy feeling kind of thing; it makes you, your family
and those around you safer. Knowing how to handle your firearm in a
stressful situation is paramount to your survival in a life or death
situation. Abolishing bills simply because they promote or demand some
amount of training is shortsighted at best and negligent at worst. I am
terrified of some of those who have conceal/carry permits not because I think
they’re unstable rather it’s their lack of training and overall knowledge that
scares the hell out of me… Van, good job on promoting something more


I am tired of using another state’s ccw permit just so I can carry in more states. Indiana needs to wake up. I have the lifetime Indiana and the non-resident Florida. As a veteran, I believe in training and lots of it. I also believe that our pics need to be on our licenses too.
If our wallets are stolen or misplaced or lost and someone finds the lifetime ccw, what is to prevent them from saying it is their license? A picture must be on our licenses.
Training ought to be a requirement. I know of many permit holders that carry and cannot hit what they shoot at. I asked a friend of mine to show me how he loads and unloads my revolver and he didn’t have a clue. He also didn’t know how to feed a round into the chamber of my 1911. Yet he has a ccw license. DUHHHH!
I’ve taken several ccw permit holders to the local range and placed an armor-plated target chest high about 10ft away and told them to shoot it. OMG…scary!!! None of them hit the target. 10ft!!! And people like them are carrying on a day to day basis!
What makes it more sad is that I asked them what they would do if their round went downrange and instead of striking/penetrating the target, the bullet missed the target and hit an innocent bystander such as a child. They responded that the innocent bystander shouldn’t be standing there. Another DUHHHHH!!!
Training! Lots of it! I am an ex-marine vietnam veteran and I not only take NRA classes several times a year, I go to the range and shoot all my weapons one or more times weekly. I can never learn enough.
Indiana needs to redo their ccw permits and not only put pictures of the permit holder on them but they also need at least 2 documented training requirements.


Thank you Rick, I am an NRA Instructor and it scares the hell out of me that Indiana gives anyone with a pulse and $35 a permit to carry a gun, especially at the age of 18! NO TRAINING REQUIRED…. I think ALL permit holders should have to take the training or show viable proof that they have been trained. Not just because they can shoot a gun…..

If you carry….you should have the Knowledge, Skills and Attitude to safely & responsibly handle your firearm!!!!



If you think a cop is just going to look at the pink piece of paper and not check and run an actual ID, you are an idiot… Why don’t you think about what you say first.


“ are an idiot..”
Guess you just gave Heinlein’s “..polite society..” a black eye.

Gil R.

Being a resident of Miller Beach, (a seperate, but an incorporated part of Gary, IN) I applaud SB555 and will encourage my elected officials from the Lake County area to support the bill. Van, you did an excellent job presenting the facts in a public forum, for the greater good!! As a member of the NRA, and IDPA as well as several others, THANK YOU!!


I a RKBA supporter and oppose this bill. It will have unintended consequences. You can bank on that.

If you’re not happy with your IN LTCH, you can get any number of non-resident licenses from UT, FL, AZ, etc. as you have done. There is no NEED for what is being proposed. Messing with the IN LTCH statutes – which is really good – is dangerous water.


meadolark489457, I appreciate your point of view! The last thing we need is adding more laws. However, I think Indiana should have NEVER instituted handing out permits to anyone and everyone without any training! I don’t want someone who is ignorant about firearm safety and has the firearm skills of a rock being anywhere near me with a loaded firearm. They are not a solution, just a bigger part of the problem.

In my PERSONAL opinion, instead of having this tier….. amend the existing law to MANDATE training or a PROOF of viable training.

I am a proud NRA Certified Firearms Instructor, I don’t do it for the money, I do it to make people who carry safe for themselves and the people around them!

I fully support training mandates for ALL LTCH holders!!!


This is a HORRIBLE idea! Indiana has some of the best firearms laws in the country, and you are going to ask politicians to change them? There are mechanisms to gain reciprocity in other states, such as a Utah non-resident permit. And it will only cost about $150 and 4 hours on a Saturday. I think asking to have our gun laws changed is pure ignorance.

And I agree with an earlier post, that as an NRA instructor and life member from Indiana, you should be the first to point out that Indiana does not have a CCW permit, it is a LTCH. Nomenclature matters in this case, it is not semantics.

Brian Kelsey

Instead of more law, we should be working to reverse the laws that require us to get permission or otherwise in fringe on our right regardless of where in the nation we are or how many state lines we cross. This goes the wrong way.

Al Lafferty

What the hell is CCW ? Indiana has no such license, My license is to carry I had a local state trooper tell me it had to be concealed I told him that I did not have too that I had asked the post commander about it and I quote ( Sir you can carry your weapon like we carry ours open or concealed ) end quote. Enough said…..

Denver Sullivan

This is just an attempt for instructors out to get $$$.

As a lifetime LTCH holder I find this piece of legislation ridiculous. Anyone wanting greater reciprocity can pickup a Utah, Florida or Arizona permit fairly easily and at minimal cost. All this does is cause our existing permits to no longer be accepted!

Plus, it imposes training requirements that our congress-critters are free to add, change and rearrange at anytime for any reason.

The existing LTCH has been good for many years and we DO NOT need someone screwing with it!

Denver Sullivan

Anyone holding a lifetime LTCH should be on the phone to their folks in Indianapolis recommending they can this piece of crap legislation!

The new license requires mandatory classroom and ‘live fire’ training from state or nationally approved licensed instructors. This training requirement alone will make
licensing for many individuals cost prohibitive. For example, an NRA training course which
would meet these requirements can cost $100-450 per person (depending on where within Indiana you reside). For a husband and wife that could cost up to $900 in training!
This cost is in addition to the current licensing costs and the cost of the actual weapon itself.

Furthermore, there is no grandfathering or consideration made for existing lifetime license
holders who may have already received substantially more training either
through firearms competitions, hunter education classes, military/law
enforcement service, other states non-resident licensing programs, hands on
instruction from fellow range members, etc.

Our current LTCH is recognized by 28 states.

By creating this new ‘top tier’ license, existing lifetime permit holders run a serious risk of losing reciprocity in these existing states should those states decide to prefer this new uber-license over the current LTCH. This would effectively render our existing
credentials – which many of us have held for years – worthless.

Even with additional licensing requirements there is no guarantee or solid evidence
to suggest that the new license proposed would be accepted any more widely than
our existing credentials. There are several states which do not honor reciprocity with anyone (Illinois, South Carolina, Maryland, Maine, California, etc.) and in the current political climate probably never will.

This ‘build it and they will follow’ approach is flawed because we have no control
over what other states will or will not honor within their borders.

The only one to benefit from ANY of this is the instructors. They get $$$, they don’t have to take any training (they’re the trainers), and all of us suffer. Plus, it opens the door for our DemoRATS and other congress-critters to tack on additional ‘conditions’ to maintaining our rights.

NOTE TO AUTHOR: If you actually wanted to do something helpful, you should have focused on eliminating the ‘safe’ zones within Indiana… not screwing the rest of us over.


This sounds like something a bureaucratic democrat would come up with. More laws, more forms, more classes, blah blah blah… Just stick with your day job and stay out of politics. They don’t need anymore of your help coming up with stupid ideas. They do great on their own.


I agree with just about everyone else’s posts. You don’t know what you are talking about… Not only do you have the terminology wrong, but you have no understanding of how the police operate. You are severely mistaken if you believe a cop is just going to accept that pink piece of paper as your License. Your license has a number on it, and they are going to run any other ID you have, such as your drivers license, as well as your License to Carry number. If a person has been convicted of a crime since they received their license to carry, it will show up when they run their ID. If everything doesn’t match up, then they take the person to the station, finger print them, etc… until they can get it figured out. Just because you have a fancy piece of plastic with you picture on it doesn’t mean it can’t be duplicated – they even run your drivers license through the system.

So think about doing some research before you post…


Personally I think that everyone that disagrees that some form of training should be mandatory are wrong. As for putting the picture on the License, it doesn’t matter to me one way or the other, but if it will allow me to drive through Ohio and visit SC without paying for another states license every 4 years, I’m for it. And Lifetime Licenses will still be given out! As for those of you that don’t want to get it, Don’t. They aren’t doing away with your current license. But I would hope that they would make it so that all new licenses issued will be under these new rules.
I learned to shoot in the Army. But when I bought my new semi-automatic, I didn’t know how to field strip it. Thank goodness I could go over to a neighbor and he showed me. That constituted some training I hadn’t had previously, but I got all the safety training in the army. But as a shooter, I’ve been seeing people that don’t know BASIC SAFETY at the ranges, and BASIC SAFETY should be a must for everyone!
Once this law is passed, I for one will get the new license. I welcome it. And I will then gladly dispose of my old Lifetime LTC, as I don’t really care if it is pink or blue or gray.


Mr. Phillips;

You just don’t get it do you, even if half of the things you say are true, and I’m sure they are, every time we incrementally allow the government to restrict our 2nd amendment rights, we begin to lose those very same rights. There will always people who accidentally kill themselves or another with a gun. Guns are dangerous, they are designed to do harm, either for defense or for sport. All guns are designed to assault, and while we may use them to scare off criminals and wild animals, that is not what they were designed to do. Thus, guns are inherently dangerous, and they always will be. Just because the press “pounces” on these misfortunes doesn’t mean I should abdicate my natural born constitutional right to some governmental agency in order to receive permission to carry what I as a US citizen have the right to bear. You may be a great instructor, nonetheless, you clearly have a financial benefit if the bill you had presented in my state government passes. The constitution does not require that get any sort of governmental training to prove that I know enough about guns in order to carry one. I’m sure you are a fine gentleman, but you have done the citizens of Indiana no favors. You may not intend your bill to replace the current law, but it is just a matter of time before some liberal government Pollyanna thinks your bill is a great idea and that it should replace the existing state law. It is not your job, or my governments job, to figure out ways to make liberal Americans and their liberal states happy with the fact that I may be carrying something that is my constitutional right. Liberals will never be happy until they have done away with the 2nd amendment. Please request that your representative retract your bill.
Thank you.


So according to Van if all states decided to make carrying a felony, he would be all done being able to defend himself? Does that not make it a government-issued privilege and not a right? When are we going to stop being yellow, stand up, and stop complying with this garbage? It might take a shooting war. Take your pick…1776 again, or the rail cars to the gas chambers?

Wayne B.

The nice thing about that little piece of PINK paper that Indiana calls a CCW license is that it has a license number attached to it in the top left hand corner. If your asked for it by any law enforcement agency it’s for a reason. ………….. A really good reason!

Unlike a drivers license that’s issued by the DMV your CCW License is issued by a law enforcement agency. When that ID number is called in for processing your picture comes back on the police scanner with all your pertinent information. If you want to try and copy it, lend it out, steal one, forge one, or anything else that can and will land you in jail, please, by all means, be my guest.


Funny, we will let people have liquor with no training, drive a car being trained by a parent who my drive worse than the kid, and we send kids to war with the number of weeks of training that there are in a elementary school grading period. Few mention that many of those going to get a LTCH (NOT CCW – it’s CC, OC or both – your choice) at 18 have been given instruction by the same people we trusted to teach them the facts of life, you know, their parents, grandparents, siblings, scout masters, MCJROTC instructors, and many thousands of other competent people. As a licensed bail/recovery agent in the state of Indiana, we have a plastic drivers license like ID card with a photo. Maybe we should at least get something similar for a LTCH to be accepted as authentic in other states. I know guys AND girls who have made a perfect color copy of their Indiana LTCH so they have one in the car, one in their purse, one in their wallet, one with their recovery agent / private detective badge, ect. just so they “got it at all times.” Now how many people have stolen, copied and “photoshopped” one for illicit purposes? An IN LTCH is one piece (of many) acceptable forms of ID needed to get an Indiana DL. (A stolen LTCH w/out photo can be used to steal a person’s identity!) If the officer checking the LTCH does not run it (IT HAPPENS!), he wont know its fake, reported lost, stolen, suspended, revoked, ect. no matter if its paper or plastic. That just reminded me, I have to go to the grocery store, I’m off my soap box and out!

Rights not privileges.

My father taught me to use firearms and to use them properly. Just as his father did for him. I do not need some self important instructor approved by the state to allow me my rights. Mandatory training is nothing more than asking the state for permission for your right.

Gabe B

I’m in agreement with Van Phillips.