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Learning from the NYPD Shooting

September 6, 2012 | by
Learning from the NYPD Shooting

Learning from the NYPD Shooting

You’ve probably heard about the shooting that took place on August 24, 2012 in New York City. In short, a former employee killed his co-worker and was then killed by two New York City Police Officers. One officer fired his gun 7 times and the other officer fired his gun 9 times.

During this hail of gunfire 9 innocent bystanders were wounded all from shots fired by the NYPD. Luckily for the police, nobody was seriously injured by the stray bullets and all of the rounds ended up in a persons leg or arm.

Now, as any shooter knows, the fourth rule of firearms safety is “know your backstop,” and don’t take the shot if you may end up hitting an innocent bystander. And although the police obviously violated this rule, it appears that nothing is going to happen to the officers’ and they’ve already been raised by both the Police Commissioner and the Mayor.

But here’s the thing…

You and I know that most police departments are still a “good ole’ boy network” and the police are able to get away with things that you and I never could. After all, just imagine if you or I had stopped a crazed gunman but in the process had wounded 9 people with stray bullets?

Just imagine the TV headlines… The same Mayor Bloomberg who is praising his officers would be calling for more gun control and talking about how Americans shouldn’t be allowed to have guns.

Also, before I forget to mention this, there are two reasons I don’t really blame the officers for what they did. First, when you’re in that type of situation you get incredible tunnel vision and they most likely didn’t see any of the bystanders and only saw the shooter.

Secondly…

Most police officers are very poorly trained when it comes to shooting, and I doubt could tell you the 4 rules of firearms safety if you asked them. I know this as a fact because I was a police officer and most officers aren’t really into shooting and only go to the range every 6 months when they are forced to qualify with their duty weapon.

So the lessons that you need to learn from this incident are that you need to be aware of your surroundings in a shooting. It’s not easy because you’ll get tunnel vision like everyone, but if you end up hitting 9 bystanders you may be looking at jail time.

Also, this incident proves once again you do not want to rely on the police when your life is on the line. If you’ve ever taken any of my training courses or any of the other schools such as Gunsite, I can promise you that you’re better trained than the majority of police officers. It may not be the most comforting thing to hear, but you’re the only one who is truly responsible for your family’s safety, which is why you should train as often as time and money will allow.

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  • So true about police training. I’m an ex police officer and found the training to be not only inadequate, but the requirements were minimal and qualification was a joke. I happened to be into shooting so I practiced regularly, but most police officers amazingly do not.

    • I agree. When I was still a state police officer we had people that were at the range every chance they got. Yet others that hated to go to in service training because they had to clean their gun.

  • You forgot to mention that only 10 bullets (of 16) hit the suspect..

    • Think back to the last time you shot someone. What was your hit rate? Just curious how you did. (not the range a human you shot)

      • mtnmen

        Well over 80% per the combat record and that’s with near 100 recorded kills and near 30 probables in combat and 100% of those 2 that broke into my house.
        [email protected]

    • And 9 people were wounded. So 19 hits with 16 shots. Hmm?

  • Except that in THIS particular scenario, the cops were veterans and acted appropriately. They moved to opposite sides to create multiple targets, created a zone to trap the suspect and fired.

    Sometimes shit happens – but just BECAUSE innocent people got hit, doesn’t mean they did something wrong. You should do a bit more research before bloviating. Gun for hire has a good blogcast on the subject where they break it all down.

    • Cobrawing

      I couldn’t agree more. Jason once again speaks without thought . . . something he’s been doing a lot of lately. The NYPD has something like 34 thousand officers. It is foolishly unrealistic to expect every one of them to be sent to intensive GunSite type of training. Get a clue Jason. Police officers are trained to be “proficient” in their firearms. They are not and never will be expected to become expert level shooters. Anyone who has ever truly been a police officer for any length of time knows this. Many officers do seek additional training, but NO department is going to send 34 thousand officers to GunSite. Get a clue Jason. I spent nearly 30 years as an armed law enforcement officer and I know this to be true. I sought additional training on my own, but no additional shooting training would have resulted in a better outcome.

      The killer is dead and no one else. That sounds like a good day to me! Those two officers deserved the praise they received. The red flag went up in the worst area possible which was the heart of mid-town Manhattan in the middle of the day with hundreds of people in the area right next to the gunman. They took this guy out successfully. The rounds that missed struck the large concrete round barriers on the street and it was the fragmenting riccochets that caused the unfortunate wounds to the nearby bystanders.

      Jason would have the reader belive they just weren’t trained well enough. Jason is clueless if he’s going to suggest that GunSite training would have avoided this. People “claiming” to be ex-cops who go around second guessing real cops should be ashammed of themselves. We don’t do that in our law enforcement brotherhood and Jason should know better. Spend a lifetime in uniform as I and others did and not just the few years that you claim. Then come back and speak with some authority Jason.

    • Kevin

      Except they didn’t move to opposite sides to create a zone or multiple targets. I watched the video. They approached a known armed subject without their weapons drawn in a single file line. The first officer, when the perp turned around with his gun, turned directly into the officer behind him, still not reaching for his weapon. In order for the second officer to have a line of fire, he stepped away from his partner, drew his weapon and dumped the mag one handed. By this time the first officer remembered what he was doing, drew his weapon and fired as well. The video shows two very confused officers approaching a subject.

  • Another notable is that the NYPD uses “NY” triggers with trigger pulls in the double digits. Combined with extremely poor training, and a freaked out officer mashing the trigger, it is little wonder they can’t hit the broad side of a barn without hitting every cow in the pasture first, and it is one more fine example of our “only ones” at work.

  • Saman

    You must take into accont, the “New York Trigger” if they were using Glock Pistols. It increases the trigger pull from 5 pounds to 11-14 pounds. I assume they were using Glocks or otherwise why was the NY trigger invented. This trigger makes precise shots difficult for an experienced shooter. The reason they invented the trigger was, officers were shooting themselves in he leg (Glock Leg) and the powers that be in NYC wanted to make a safer pistol for the police.

  • druid9

    This incident is neither singular nor unusual in NYC. As a former city emergency services officer, I could tell you many more just like it. It’s not a matter of the initial training that NYC POs receive, because that is very good. It’s the fact that, other than going to “blow off” a few rounds and re-qualify every year, there is no continuing firearms training, and no follow-up situational proficiency testing. This is true for many, if not most, departments. Few cops realize that the more people on the street, the more likely they are to nail an IB if a shooting incident happens.

  • Tionico

    the other part of the equation left out by the media are the two construction workers that actually gave chase to the (known to be armed) shooter as he fled the scene. Had either of them been legally armed, the perp could have been apprehended, perhaps alive, with NO other “collateral damage”. Oh, but Bloomie ONLY trust his own boys.. they are the ONLY ONES able to “safely” handle firearms in HIS town… right?

    • mtnmen

      That is exactly why I am always armed and don’t ever expect assistance.

    • Rick Deckard

      An armed civilian giving chase to an murder suspect with the goal of apprehending them alive is an awfully bad idea. For lots of reasons. The construction workers did the right thing. Tailed him and called for Police.

      If the victim didn’t have his 2A rights stripped in NYC and the other boroughs he may have survived.

      If you have the goal of playing cop like the idiot in Florida in the back of your head change your thinking.

  • I know here in Oklahoma, we concealed carry license holders are held accountable for any innocent bystanders that get shot in the course of a shooting.

    • Jim, everyone, everywhere is held accountable as a private citizen that carries concealed. Carrying Concealed comes with a tremendous responsiblity that we must be willing to carry and understand right along with our weapon of choice. If we are not held accountable too many innocents would be in danger of harm and that is not the purpose of carrying a weapon capabile of fatal results.

  • Gordon

    Maasad Ayoob at Backwoods Home Magazine wrote a piece justifying the police officers conduct and shooting abilities.

    • What are his qualifications? Writing books, being a cop, and being on advisory boards don’t make a expert. Has he been in combat? Has he been in multiple gunfights in close quarters while fighting for his life? I am asking because I honestly don’t know. I am not critiquing him or his abilities. I just want to know if he was a operator or just another range bunny.
      Ed Moralis, for example, was a a FBI Agent that was in a real life gunfight where he was shot and his friends shot right next to him. So someone like him or even a 20 year old kid who was a MP in Iraq for a year would have advise worth taking. Those are the people I think have valuable advice and insite.
      Right now we have a national average of 18%hit rate at 6″ with a 5% jill rate (doj stat) for gun fights. That is using the range only applicable training with isocioles, power isocioles , and other techniques that people have no problem using on a firing range and totally fail in a gun fight. Probably because you can’t duplicate the body alarm response in training. Only stress. So you can train using inferior tactics that only work on a range where you still have clear vision, a clear mind, manual dextaritoy, no wounds, no adrenalin, and muscle control. Perform flawlessly, do tv shows, and win trophies. Then turn around and totally fail in a gun fight.
      If you are serious about self defense shooting talk to someone who has been in a gun fight. So that means those NYPD cops are experts. They can talk more intelligently about what really happens in a gun fight vs what someone who has never been inning one. And that is who should be teaching at police academies and writing books.

      • MASS GRAD

        “Has he been in combat? Has he been in multiple gunfights in close quarters while fighting for his life?” Yes. Why don’t you take his Mag-40 class and learn something.

        • I should. Even if there was nothing new it would be good to get a different perspective. There is a instructor that is local, good guy. Can’t hurt. I have been surprised before.

        • And it was wrong for me to judge a man I never met or training I never had. I was told by someone I respected and took his class the guy was not in combat and is teaching the same outdated inferior tactics that resulted in horrible shooting stats. But it’s wrong for me to run with that like it was true. It was one guys opinion.

  • I am flabbergasted by elements of the article and some comments. First of all if you have not actually been shot or at least shot at you have zero experience in firearms for self defense purposes. I don’t care if you were a police SWAT instructor for 20 years or are a national pistol champion on top shots. If you have not shot someone while they were trying to kill you don’t hand out advice on the subject. You have none to give any more then my 12 yearold who plays Xbox. A 20 year old Ranger who has tours in the sandbox or the Stan has more credibility then anyone who has not been in a gunfight. I am not impressed with titles or awards. I want to know what gun fight you were in and who you killed to save your own or someone else’s life before I listen to somebody Monday night quaterback the decision a police officer made while on the razors edge.
    I have driven a car for 28 years, and played car racing simulators. But that doesn’t give me the compartments to had out advice to someone in a formula one race.

    • mtnmen

      Well Joseph you now have someone to discuss the situation with that has the experience that you claim the writer didn’t have.

      I have been shot twice and have had to take the life of more people that I care to count both in combat in WW2 and Korea and as a civilian (only shot a person twice as a civilian, both had broken into my house, both servived) but as a sniper among other things in a Navy UDT team yes I have been REQUIRED to eliminate several others.

      And I can tell you from experience the writer was right in most of his article, about the only thing that I disagree with is the total tunnel vision.

      If PROPERLY TRAINED that will NOT completely happen, yes you concentrate on the job at hand but tunnel vision can and may very well get you dead ad demonstrated in EVERY CAD training course.

      Yes I am getting a bit old but even at 84 years of age I still practice regularly and do still shoot in competition and do quite well, no I don’t play the game I just get it done what ever it is.

      Its like our motto in UDT “NO BOUNDARY — NO BOARDER — NO RULES —-
      WE JUST GET IT DONE.
      [email protected]

      • And I disagree. Tunnel vision is a physical medical non voluntary Responce. You can not eliminate it. You train to deal with it when it happens by forcing to check corners and bust it up by keeping your head on a swivel. But it’s there. So your training did not eliminate it at all. You just recognized it and over came it.

        • mtnmen

          Well I will not argue the point but even as you said you can recognize that there is tunnel vision and overcome it, that is a absolute fact and THAT can be trained into most people so if its a physical medical non voluntary response even you admit that it CAN and I say MUST be taught with as requirement on not only law enforcement but also in the military,

          YES it can be controlled I have done it and I have lost good friends that didn’t and I say yes they could have been taught to do it to save their lives.

          In hand to hand combat where you KNOW for sure its either them or you and you never know how many of them there are. I have seen good friends sort of freeze up on a target area and die for it, I feel that it was as you say tunnel vision that killed them.

          Even when squeezing off a round on a target you MUST know what is going on around you.

          That’s why I say tunnel vision can and very well may get you dead, I have watched it happen.

          Also my son in law is a 27+ year Dallas police officer and I feel from talking with him that he would 100% agree that you can and MUST control what you call the tunnel vision thing.

          We called it combat freeze up. And by the way in both WW2 and Korea per the record less that 55% actually fired their weapon even in hand to hand most of the rest just froze up and couldn’t do it..

          Its not easy to get a HUMAN in the sites and knowingly kill him.

          CAD training alone may not be able to teach it but if you open that door or arrive on the spot with a serious attitude it is about the best personal danger training you can get but way to many just look at it as a game and sort of blow it off.

          [email protected]

  • I get so mad when people who were not there or even been in the same situation as a Police Officer feel they know or could have done better. We are not in the simulator or a firing range. Show me what you did when you were in the same real life situation and I am all ears.
    How many cop funerals have you been to? Or military? They did not die on a firing range.

    • mtnmen

      No they didn’t die on a firing range but with proper training they may not have died at all.

      Money and time are always to short for proper training but they always have both to hire a new bunch of people.

      In military usually your training and condition is pretty well matched with your opponent so then you sort of know what to expect except you never know the strength of your opponent.

      In law enforcement you never know what or how many to expect or what condition the subject/s is/are in but you do usually but not always have time and the option to ask for almost unlimited back ups before going in to COMBAT but if it is ever one on one the police should have the upper hand as they are or should be well trained and well equipped to handle most situations.

      But even the best trained police can never be every where its “the police are only minutes away but both times when my house ” the GUYS were armed and in my house NOW so I took care of the situation NOW” then called 911 to report it.

      That is the main reason that I claim that EVERYONE that can qualify and is mentally capable should be armed at ALL times.

      YES law enforcement does a good job when they are there but need your help OFTEN when and where a crime is being committed, often by the time they get there all they can do is make reports and get someone to clean up the mess,

      But REMEMBER being armed is a FULL time and very serious JOB, you can never take it lightly and MUST always remember that what ever you do with a weapon WILL and SHOULD be investigated to the fullest and you may have to spend quite a bit of time in court defending your actions.

      Hopefully you did the right thing but if not you can also be looking at a prison term.

      [email protected]

  • Dwayne

    Yes the officers deserved praise and thank God no one was seriously injured but he’s right on the account that if it was an average citizen that did it they would be facing jail time. Its just a simple fact of police being above the average person, which ihave no problem with.

  • How many of the hits on non-threat targets were direct hits, and how many were ricochet’s? In a situation like this, misses and ricochets are almost inevitable, and the lack of life-threatening injuries suggests that these might not have been direct hits.
    Richard Kerr
    [email protected]

  • Scott C

    A not exact but similar situation happened in South Beach Miami, FL during Memorial Weekend. The police setup a road block and a single individual broke threw the blockade in a vehicle. The police then fired over 30 rounds killing the suspect and injuring numerous bystanders. The suspect did not fire a signal round. Nobody ever heard what happened to the innocent bystanders. My guess is Miami Beach Police department settled out of court. Accountability is something L.E.O. doesn’t have to worry about so they act with reckless abandonment. There needs to be a pannel of officials separate from the police department that monitor and judge L.E.O.’s actions.

    • Too much tv. Everything you sugested is and has been in place for years. I fact LEO is held to a higher standard then you in a shooting.

  • Pat

    “Let me ask you this Miss, if somebody pointed a gun at you and you had a gun in your pocket, what would you do? I think that answers the question,” Bloomberg said Tuesday at an unrelated news conference in the Bronx.

    • Mike Hargreaves

      Any fight, were you might be killed, or very badly injured, messes up your head.
      And your aim, trigger pull, you name it. How the Police Association (Union) could allow the no expertise fools who set the trigger poundage, at over 10 lbs? NY Trigger, I will never know. The S&W Revolvers, previously carried, had double action trigger pulls about that, 10 lbs. But pressed smoothly to the rear, lent it’s self to a great release, and good hits. Yes 100 year technology, but they worked.
      If the normal, from the factory trigger had been left alone, instruct finger off the trigger, till the sights had been aligned, hits would be better, ADs reduced.
      Don’t forget, the Hold up Squad did some amazing shooting, same weapons as the rank and file, till disbanded (Shot too many minority’s? Hullo)
      Can this be improved? Yes, go back to factory triggers (smooth surfaced triggers, ditch the lines!) spend the first hour of training, dry firing! Aim and click, draw, aim, and click.
      A line with 50 recruits, does not work.

  • Violist Fiftysix

    Hanson’s a little young to be a “former CIA officer”, let alone a CIA anything, but I CAN speak to this issue because I did put in a lotta years as an auxiliary cop with the NYPD. I served as a Sergeant (parallel rank structure from Patrolman to Deputy Chief) and I can state with absolute knowledge that the First, Last and ONLY rule at the NYPD is “C Y A”. Are we clear on this? This extended even unto the Auxiliaries. We all had to be prepared to “bite the bullet” when it came to saving face with the Department. At least if we wanted to be perceived as “one of the boys”. So it does NOT surprise me that either cop was lauded for their “job”. And, as usual, the standards of shooting skills at the NYPD are execrable. I once was allowed to shoot my uncle’s On-Duty revolver when I was 12 years old. I scored (for my first time, EVER!) a 39 out of a possible 60, with a standard large bulls-eye at 25 feet. I was told by the Range Officer that I did better than most of the recruits coming thru for their first times. And this was a S&W 4″ bbl model 10 with a 1956 action and barrel. For a 12 year old to be told that back then… wellll, I think that the same situation is still most likely the norm, rather than any improvements. Not to mention all the times that cops have accidentally fired their weapons while cleaning or de-cocking their revolvers… there are books full of this stuff.
    I knew more about shooting than most of the officers in my former precinct as I had a “target permit” (years ago) and regularly shot my Mod 686 S&W 4″ .357 mag, as well as my mod 457 S&W .45 acp. I had quite a collection, and I never ever fired any weapon without being absolutely sure of what and where I was shooting. Most civilian shooters often do know more as they devote more time to the shooting sports than many NYPD officers. Sad to say, I know; but it’s perfectly true, and time has shown us all that it’s true. And it’s deplorable. And so have been so many more shootings over time. Amadou Diallo comes to mind.

    • He was a CIA employee

      • Reality Check LOL

        Being the janitor at Central Intelligence Agency does make you a CIA employee!

        • Agree. LoL

          • titsmcgee

            haters gonna hate… my buddy (former) Air force OSI did 6 years then boom CIA, he’s only 28 it’s all about who you know

  • The bottom line is that nearly ALL people with pistols usually miss their intended targets. The difference is that police are backed up with the power of the State, which will handle law suits for wrongful death and attempt to justify the use of force. If I as a civilian acted in such a fashion, I would be crucified in the media, by the DA, and by the ambulance chasing lawyers. The problems of when to shoot, how to improve the “hit” percentage, how to avoid “collateral damage” (whether from a “miss” or a “through-and-through”), and the training of shooters to achieve those goals has been debated since at least the 1800’s. From what I have read, the most success has come (at an advanced level) from force on force training, and lots of it. The trouble is, it is expensive, both in time, (which is in itself expensive) and in dollar investment for facilities and equipment, especially in the case of NYPD with 37,000 officers (last figure I heard).

    Here are some statistics and their source documents.

    …approximately 80% of the rounds fired by law enforcement Officers engaged in violent encounters do not strike the intended targets… (page 7, FBI and Caliber)
    John C. Hall
    Unit Chief, Firearms Training Unit, FBI Academy

    The Review-Journal found that about two-thirds of the shots fired by Clark County cops miss.

    FROM “DEADLY FORCE” Las Vegas Review Journal 11/27/2011

    RAND Corporation Evaluation of the NYPD Firearm Training and Firearm-Discharge Review Process (nicknamed “Unsafe at Any Distance” page 14)

    ␣␣ As has been reported nationally, police officers often miss their targets (Morrison, 2006, p. 332). The NYPD reports hit-rate statistics both for officers involved in a gunfight and for officers who shoot at subjects who do not return fire. Between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate was 18 percent for gunfights. Between 1998 and 2006, the average hit rate in situations in which fire was not returned was 30 percent. In 2006, the hit rate against subjects who did not return fire was 27 percent.10
    ␣␣ On average, more rounds were discharged during gunfights than during other types of incidents. In 2006, the number of shots fired per gunfight incident was 11.1, compared with 4.7 for incidents against subjects who did not return fire. Officers involved in gunfights fired, on average, 7.6 rounds, compared with an average of 3.5 for officers who fired against subjects who did not return fire.
    10 Vila and Morrison (1994, p. 1)

    Hit Potential In Gun Fights (From the SOP-9 Study)

    The police officer’s potential for hitting his adversary during armed
    confrontation has increased over the years and stands at slightly over 25% of
    the rounds fired. An assailant’s skill was 11% in 1979.

    In 1990 the overall police hit potential was 19%. Where distances could be
    determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

    Less than 3 yards ….. 38%
    3 yards to 7 yards .. 11.5%
    7 yards to 15 yards .. 9.4%

    In 1992 the overall police hit potential was 17%. Where distances could be
    determined, the hit percentages at distances under 15 yards were:

    Less than 3 yards ….. 28%
    3 yards to 7 yards …. 11%
    7 yards to 15 yards . 4.2%

  • Joe Baysinger

    I’m calling BS on being a agent for the CIA and any bozo can get a NRA certification and Utah CCW instructor permit. Im disappointed in USA Carry for publishing this “article”. This guy clearly had no idea what he writes about or true qualifications to back it up.

    • Joe, the CIA is made up of people with graduate degrees mostly. Intell guys no different then the military intell types. Even the NOC guys are not the Jason Born types. The Special Activities guys are a different storry. The aurthor was a CIA employee. He also is a firearms instructor.

    • FireBloombergNow

      I completely agree with Baysinger. This guy is full of it.

  • bluesdr44

    A bit off topic but related to the event, it pissed me off that the news media headlines, as the story was unfolding, were MASS SHOOTING IN NYC. They were ready to pin all the victims on the shooter (suspect), rather than wait for more of the facts to come out about who shot who. No doubt they were saddened to learn they could not drag out for days another “nut with a gun” story

  • XDm40cal

    Bloomberg is so lost, he couldnt find a backside if you gave him a map to it…
    Firearms control is knowing the 4 rules…

    • SocialistGenerals

      I completely disagree. Bloomberg is not lost. Bloomberg is a very, very savvy billionaire who is strategically and calculatingly moving to take away any and all US Citizens constitutional rights as he sees fit. He is an extremely dangerous individual who should not be discounted or thought of lightly.

  • Larry

    My daughter and Son-In-Law are both Police Officers and get FREE ammo to practice their job related skills. My daughter won’t go shooting until it is time to qualify: her husband goes shooting at least once every 2 weeks. When it is time to qualify, they are put under pressure, with popup targets, time constraints, they have to hit the deck in prone position and other scenarios. Which one is more apt to be proficient in a life or death shooting?

    Also we have to remember that the police have vests on and the likelihood of the bad guy or gal have a vest is almost nil. People have to realize that if you believe that you have to fall down when shot like the movies portray, you probably already have that mindset. If on the other hand you have the mindset that, yes it will hurt if I get shot: BUT I am going to return fire until the opponent is put down and disarmed.

    If the Police in NewYork aren’t issued vests or if they don’t wear them, because they think they will never need them: SHAME on them!

    Good guys don’t shoot Police Officers: BAD Guys or Gals do and they get guns by even stealing them from Police Officers and US Army Armories.

    Wake up America the war has already started and is being fueled every day! Bad guys and Bad gals,Nuts & people that don’t want to work for a living are getting more arms to take what other people have worked their lives for! Get ready it is only going to get worse!

    Some of the gun stuff, like bad shootings may even be fed by the Administration: like their “Fast & Furious” program for example,and Anti Gun people just to help their agenda of getting rid of our Constitution and its provisions for freedoms, etc. Were they going to use “Fast & Furious”program, that backfired, to give them another excuse to get rid of our guns?

    Bloomberg is an IDIOT and he should be fired, because the buck stops with him for lack of training for HIS officers. He like Obama are commander in chiefs of their forces and responsible for their forces’ actions! The Police Officers should be put on suspension without pay: They are not heroes! They get paid to do a job and they know the risks! If they don’t want to be shot at by the bad guys: Resign; because it comes with the job!!

  • Larry

    I forgot to mention that my son and daughter were taught to shoot at very young ages: 6 to 7 years old. Guns were always around on the top of cabinets, work bench or in a closet :LOADED! They were taught that they were responsible for every round, and were ready to defend themselves and loved ones! They respected guns: but we live in a different time and society. The young adults today where not taught as kids to respect firearms and trained accordingly: but trained up to dislike guns. New York is one of the states that it takes knowing someone or bribing someone to be able to carry for self defense! Arizona and other states with CC permits have FAR lower crime rates. An armed God fearing society is a peaceful society.

    An unarmed Godless society is lawlessness and crime waiting to happen to the law abiding!

    Bloomberg is an IDIOT and he should be fired, because the buck stops with him for lack of or the effective training of HIS officers. He like Obama are commander in thieves of their forces and responsible for their forces’ actions!

    • I agree. I have a permit for New York. It was easy to get. Just took money and time. Your thinking of the city of NY where it takes a act of god to get one.

      • Larry

        Joseph,
        So it takes time and money: Doesn’t that mean that you have to be pretty “well to do” or in other-words above middle class or the poor to be able to defend yourself in the crime ridden city of New York and surrounding areas? Everyone and anyone as guaranteed by the Constitution should be able to carry; either openly or concealed. Our Constitution is slowly being destroyed by the Bloombergs and Obamas and anti gun fanatics along with anyone else that doesn’t like what it says. If they don’t like America, maybe they should go to Iran, Iraq, or even Australia where they gave up their guns and are now very sorry for the fact!
        It should not time or money for Constitutional Rights to be permitted!!!!

  • blogengeezer

    APD NM recently has been taking intense shrapnel from the ‘News’ activists. They have been involved in several justified shootings over the past years, without losing any of their own. Interesting that in the course of these ‘shootings’, the actor’s families are the major vocals. They run to the ‘News’ journalist to voice their own personal assessments of… “Yes he had faults and Demons for most of his life, but He was a good boy and… ‘turning his life around’, He didn’t need to die”… APD NM is very proficient with firearms. The fact that they remove the Dependency Addicted ‘Career Repeat Offenders’ almost as fast as the tax Payer subsidized court system can put them out on the streets, is evidence enough that at least APD’s training is sufficient to do the job. Now if only the media could see more clearly….

  • GET A CLUE

    You don’t BLAME the officers for what they did? Seriously. They did their jobs dude.
    Secondly. From what I understand no one was shot, but the shooter. The others were hit be bullet fragments.

    “So the lessons that you need to learn from this incident” is that Police are not held responsible for injuring law abiding citizens during a “good shooting.”

    You are though.

    • BIMMER 540i

      Obviously you have nothing to do at all with knowledge or handling of firearms. If you are present at a shooting and you are hit by ‘bullet fragments’ YOU HAVE JUST BEEN SHOT!

      • Cobrawing

        After two tours in ‘Nam and nearly 30 years as a law enforcement officer I can absolutely state that YOU have ZERO knowledge of much of anything! There is no way you can with a straight face (or with any degree of intelligence) state that a cop “SHOT YOU” merely because the ricochet of a bullet fragment accidentally wounded you as a bystander.

        The cop didn’t shoot YOU! You certainly incurred a bullet fragment as a bystander to the incident, but the cop didn’t shoot YOU, gez. Yes, you were wounded in the incident but stop with the drama queen theatrics. Man it up a little. The agency will often compensate you for your wound and most Americans will understand THEY were not shot at by the police.

        It’s bad enough that this so-called ex-CIA Officer, ex-cop, and ex-Eagle Scout (and who knows what else he claims) of an author wants to throw the cops under the bus here as he’s doing, but please don’t crawl into the mud with him! Get a clue. Buy a vowel if you have to . . . but get a clue!

        • Get HANSON off THIS site

          Thank you GET A CLUE and Cobrawing! Bimmer is clearly a complete and utter Liberal and it seems like
          Jason Hanson is just worse.

      • Franky50Cal

        That’s not true from the level of the law you absolute idiot.
        Clearly you have no idea of the law or use of a firearm.
        Why are you even on this site?

        Moron.

  • tj

    IT SOUNDS LIKE THEY NEED A NEW FORM OF LAW IN N.Y.AND IF THOSE COPS ARE BEING PRAISED FOR NOT CONTROLING THEIR SHOTS. THEY NEED 12 YEARS OF GUN CONTROL

  • larry

    i think these police officers need to learn to hit their target, maybe they need to go to the range more often at their own expense or get a desk job.

  • pa pa

    are we to understant that there was no other way to aperend the guy other than shooting into a crowed of people thats why it is verry important for people to get a permit. someone there could have shot him with out hiting other people ooo you would have went to jail for interfering in police bis. when the law says you can defiend yourself and other peoples lives if you have a permit;

  • PAPA

    I DON’T THINK ALL COPS ARE GONE JUST SHOOT AT A PERSON IF THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE WAY. MOST COPS ARE PAYED BY THE STATE TO BE TRAINED. AND THEY HAVE TO PASS THE TRAINING TO BE A COP.WHEN YOU GET CARLESS. THERE IS A PRICE TO BE PAYED ..

  • Larry

    This is not to brag but for the record and to apply credence and validity to what I have posted and may post in the future. I have a commendation From the Phoenix, AZ Police Dept’s Chief of Police, Cortez, for aiding a downed Police Officer who had his duty weapon taken and for apprehending the perp and the recovery of the duty weapon after it was put in my face!! So I know what it is like to have a gun in my face at 4 feet away!

    My wife and I were thinking about joining Front Sight, just out side of Pahrump, NV and 60 miles West of LasVegas: So I visited it during one of its weekend sessions and talked to a BUNCH of the people attending during the lunch break period.

    We were told by many Police, Swat, Sheriffs, special Forces and other Police and Military personnel, even foreign Police and Military guys and gals, that it was the best training they had ever had.

    As a result of the visit, my wife and I both joined Front Sight. We’ve attended Front Sight several times. Although, the long days; 7 to 7, were quite taxing for the 2 of us in our 70’s, we both believe the training far exceeded our expectations along with the Extreme Enforcement of Front Sights Stringent Safety Rules and Safety Instructions that are in play at all times during the training!

    I truly believe that every police officer in the US should attend Front Sight as does all of LasVegas’s Ca

  • fedupwithsecondguessing

    i had to comment. Most of you Monday morning quarterbacks have no clue in what you are talking about. Some of you have said you would have positioned your self so no one would be behind the target. Good Luck at doing that at 34th street and 6th ave in the middle of the day. I have been in packed elevators with more room to move than on 34th Street in the middle of the day. And while you are moving, he is potentially shooting at you. Even if he misses you, the bullets are going into the crowd behind you.

    Do you think the crowds of people in New York will depart at the sound of gunfire or a cop shouting for them to take cover? Nope. It doesn’t happen. I have had perpetrators, wanted for armed robbery, stopped at gunpoint in Manhattan, and people literally tapped me on the shoulder to ask me for directions to some tourist trap.

    As far as the New York Trigger—it sucks. The trigger pull was changed twice since we went to Glocks. Why? Accidental Discharge when field stripping the gun. Not for those who couldn’t keep the finger off the trigger when holstering.

    Our training…the basic range training sucks but our narcotics, active shooter, HIDTA courses are second to none. By the way, most of the innocent people were hit by concrete fragments and richottes, not bullets. And five the bullets passed thru the prepretrator’s body. So they hit the target.

    Those cops actually did a good job.Lets see you do better. You are assigned to what is really a show of force detail for the tourists, you haven’t had your morning coffee yet. Someone claims that someone shot someone and has a gun. Most cops get three or false “gun run” reports every day.

    And you working in a city that hate cops and will sue you or the D.A. Office prosecute you every chance they get, even if you followed procedure to the letter. You don’t think so…Look at the CNN interview of the person who was hit by fragments. He claimed the cops were firing to the crowd for no reason. Typical New York

  • Keith

    wow…after reading through these comments I can not help but think my time could of been better spent. No problems with how the officers responded.
    Situational awareness and appriopiate cover….. 3 feet, 3 shots, 3 seconds.

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