Philadelphia Open-carrier Harassed by Police with Audio

Philadelphia Open-carrier Harassed by Police with Audio
Philadelphia Open-carrier Harassed by Police with Audio

Mark Fiorino lives in Lansdale, PA and has a Pennsylvania concealed weapon permit.  While visiting his mother he was treated like a criminal by the Philadelphia Police Department merely for open carrying.  Please note that some localities in PA require a carry permit in order to open carry.  Here’s his story:

I have learned to always keep my recorder on me and recording when I am in public in Philadelphia, due to the over-zealous nature of the police, and today, I am glad I followed that rule.

As I walked down the street towards the store, I caught a glimpse of a Philadelphia Police cruiser out of the corner of my eye, traveling in the same direction I was.

A few moments later, I hear a vehicle’s transmission roughly slam into “P” very close by.

“Hey, Junior!” comes a voice from the other side of the squad car.

“Junior?!” I replied as I turned around. I thought to myself, that’s kind of a condescending way to greet someone, isn’t it? As I turned, I prepared to ask the police officer what I could help him with.

It was then that I noticed the officer had his gun trained on my chest.

At least seven officers, 5 squad cars, and a threat of a taser later, I found out what it was like to sit in the back of a paddywagon.”

There are 3 15 minute videos and a 4th that’s about 8 minutes so it’s quite a long listen.

0 0 vote
Article Rating
Subscribe
Notify of
guest
259 Comments
Oldest
Newest Most Voted
Inline Feedbacks
View all comments
Gunteacher19143

he better learn the rules in philly wow

Frosty J. Hammer

No sh*t. Obviously this guy _wanted_ a confrontation with the cops. Note to cop-baiting troll: when an officer with a weapon in condition 0, trained on your heart, says “Get down on your knees,” the proper response is not “Excuuuse me?”

Wayne

Maybe the LEO’s should learn the laws as well. What is right knowing the law and enforcing it or over reaction by the Police. Police in Philly and the politicians there think they are excluded from the State’s gun laws and

Anonymous

Agreed, LEOs should be knowledgeable of handgun laws, AND the “citizen” should have had more common sense than to deliberately stir up a confrontation.
When the situation went south (another colloquialism meaning “deteriorating”) he should have recognized that and just shut up and complied. He is lucky he was not shot.

Kwyorman

I respect your answers here sir. It is easy to tell which of the posters are “Cowboy Bobs”, throwing testosterone around instead of making use of brain cells. Too many think that “Just because I’m right, I can do and say what I want”. No, we each have personal responsibility. That said, Yes, everyone in this altercation was wrong at some point. The LEO was wrong coming out of the Cruiser with his weapon trained on Mark. Low Ready was all that was warranted. Mark was wrong in challenging the officer right out of the gate. Asking why the officer has his gun on him and not complying is no way of dealing with an officer. You don’t know if he just came from a high stress incident or not. He could still be ramped up on adrenaline. Being right doesn’t mean much at your funeral. Not to give officers an excuse, especially these disrespectful ones, we need to realize that most officers deal with the worst of society, day in and day out. Most people they meet want that “majic business card” or help getting out of a ticket, or just hate police officers. Most LEOs only have other LEOs as friends for this reason. They don’t get much of a chance to step out of the suit. The good ones don’t drink or party, knowing what that does to their reaction times. So they get kind’ve excited when someone they don’t know has a gun and turns on them and starts giving them lip. It’s easy to go to condition red, they are as human as the next guy. Yes they handled it bad, but Mark sounds like it WANTED a confrontation right from the get go. We all know people like that. Just looking for an excuse to make a point, or get recognized, even if it’s for something stupid. All Mark did here was prove to a few Philadelphia Police officers that all gun carriers are jerks. How are they going to treat the next guy they see open carrying now that they have encountered Mark?

Hackysac05

It didnt sound like he wanted one, but was prepared when he got one. He didnt do anything wrong here….the pigs were in the wrong. He even said several times that his license was in his wallet and the pig didnt let him pull it out. If a pig told me to get down on my knees in this situation, i would question it as well! The pig had NO right to point his weapon at this guy, there was no force from him shown, therefore nothing to provoke him.

Anonymous

It is pretty obvious that you have never been an LEO, and that you do not understand what they have to deal with. They overdid the situation, but remember that a LEO has a lot of experience with BAD people, so they don’t know who could be bad.
Not defending anybody in this situation. I’d like to kick the crap out of each and every one of them… starting with mr. mark.

JimSmitty

Cop baiting by obeying the laws? {shaking my head} Cop baiting would be brandishing it/firing it/etc. Not carrying it legally.

Anonymous

True. But he WAS searching for a confrontation, with either LEOs or the public, we don’t know which for sure. And he pressed it for all it was worth. He is lucky he didn’t get shot. Cops were wrong, but so was he. JMO

Tracy Campbell

It’s only “cop baiting” because he’s exercising a right you apparently don’t value. I’m sure if this was something important to you, you’d support his tenacity. The guy’s only mistake was not complying when the officer told him to get on his knees. Otherwise, I believe he acted properly.

If you believe the “authorities” will infringe on your rights and you call them out, how does that make you a “cop baiter”?

Anonymous

It’s a “dirty debate trick” called argumentum ad hominem. If you can’t attack the man’s argument successfully, attack the man. Massad Ayoob

Rock4813

Why do people hate police again?

H&K

I don’t hate good police officers.. Just the bad ones like this guy…

Anonymous

Hey, most cops have a sheezy streak in them. I had one write me up for a high beam headlight inoperative….. at 2pm in the afternoon on a sunny day. People say he is a really nice guy. Of course it was my fault….. it was the last day of the month.

Muddbog

He didn’t do anything wrong. The LEO was wrong!

Anonymous

You need to read this entire reply thread. HE was legal but HE DID A LOT WRONG. He was cruising for a bruisin, we used to say, and he got what he wanted. His 15 minutes of fame. He is damn lucky he is alive.

H&K

The only one I heard cruising was the cop..

Anonymous

That’s a colloquialism from the past. Look it up.

Tim

This is a mentally deranged Opey-Bob that desperately needs massive disciplinary action! Since when did being a cop make you god?

Gunguy101

Put a badge on an asshole and you call them Police. What a joke, I hope all of them lose their job and get sued.

Anonymous12345

This is un-believable. And here I was, brought up to believe cops are out there to respect and protect innocent civilians. These cops from PA acted like a bunch of punks, they should be the ones arrested

Anonymous

That is a common affliction among LEOs everywhere in every venue.

Pissed_Off_In_Jersey

Welcome to the United Police States of Amerika….you have rights when FUCKING say you have rights….

Anonymous

Isn’t it interesting that NOBODY ever hears somebody bitching about their rights to free and unrestricted travel which are being limited by being required to have a drivers’ license?

Mjd

Yeah this is bad police work no doubt… but why carry open if he has a license? The law may be on his side, but honestly he was asking for trouble strolling around with a sidearm

Wayne

Philly is the only place in PA you need a license to carry openly. There is no law against it in PA except for a city of the first class which Philly is considered

Wegs

Open carry is asking for trouble. Right or wrong. What part of this calculus do people not understand? Wear a friggin’ sweatshirt and make everyone’s life easier.

ObamaTard

Yet another professor like response to someone’s rights being trampled.
No wonder the US is going down the tubes.
We can thank ‘Wegs’ just like you.

Anonymous

Certainly it is about our rights. But it is also about handling things in the proper manner, and not escalating a deteriorating situation to the point of verbal abuse and physical confrontation. Had he gotten shot, maybe everybody would be happier about this.

JimSmitty

That’s the problem. It shouldn’t be asking for trouble. Don’t you get it?

sert01

Where were these so called “peace officers” when the two black panther party a-holes were threatening voters outside a voting place during the last election in the “City of Brotherly Love” ?? Mark was completely within his rights to open carry. The law is the law and a police officers job is to know the law. I’m expected to know everything about my job. That is the line of profession that they chose and what they get paid for. No excuse whatsoever either for the language used by any of the officers involved. Any way at all we can sell or just give Filthydelphia to New Jersey??

Anonymous

red herring

Sert01

Red herring? Sure am glad ole George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and the rest of our founding fathers had some balls and didn’t have the attitude that some on here have that the “powers that be” are ALWAYS right. That to ever question authority (however misguided and incorrect) is always wrong. Sure, Mark could have been manhandled at best and at worst -shot. Maybe he was a little “too prepared” with his recorder. So what? Is that illegal now too? Sure seems to me that the LEO’s involved calmed down drastically once they realized they were being taped. I hate to think of what would have happened if he hadn’t had everything on tape to cover his side of it. I’ve got many LEO friends and I know many that I wouldn’t trust as far as I could throw them and their patrol car! My last and final question to all the naysayers is this- was he legally open carrying or not? According to the LAWS of Pennsylvania and Philadelphia, yes he was. Smart or not, he had THE RIGHT!! And having and exercising OUR rights is what this country was founded on. Sert01 (and that’s all I have to say about that!!)

Anonymous

“Certainly it is about our rights. But it is also about handling things in the proper manner, and not escalating a deteriorating situation to the point of verbal abuse and physical confrontation. Had he gotten shot, maybe everybody would be happier about this.”

10 hrs ago in response to ObamaTard”

Ccpoa-cim

The Sgt. Was wrong in the end. However even if there is an oc law on the books, I bet none of the officers knew that. This is more likely the first time in there carriers they have seen someone walking down the street in a major city with a gun on there hip. The kid provoked this, its Philly not tombstone Arizona.

Imroadie

“A black guy walking through an all white neighborhood is just asking for trouble. What part of this calculus do people not understand? Stay in your own neighborhood and make everyone’s life easier.”

Get it? A person shouldn’t have to HIDE something that is their RIGHT.

Anonymous

-5 to the OP

I grew up in Bucks and went to Temple U. for college and the OP’s initial reply to the cop of “Junior??” set the tone for a conflict – he should know better.

Philly cops are, on average, asshats. There are good ones but they live in the Northeast as close to Bensalem as they can and have no illusions about Rizzo still being in office.

The *right* answer should have been, “How can I help you, officer?” and the let the Rizzo’s Raiders-wanna be (or relic) run his own mouth into the ground.

There are very clear rules about cooperating with police and NOT responding with an attitude right off the bat is #1.

JimSmitty

Tell me you would ask a cop that is immediately pointing a gun at you “How can I help you?” Please. Plus, I didn’t hear an attitude other than him being annoyed at being called Junior.

Anonymous

I’ve been downrange at various gates with very nervous 18 y/o’s armed with M-4s and M249’s pointed at me; cops with pistols are the least of my issues.

Some folks you just don’t get attitudes with when they don’t know you.

“Hello Officer, how can I help you?’ – keeps everyone alive and safe and out of trouble.

Anonymous

ATTITUDE is what causes the problem. From both sides of the confrontation. Expecting trouble, Mr. Mark should have had enough sense to restrain himself when he was confronted by THE MAN.

Richard McVey

And they wonder why people call them “PIGS”. What a load of crap. Power hungry bullies, thats all they are. My sister worked for dispatch and arrogant comments she would regularly make… Its easy to have NO RESPECT for them.

Sw29-2

The police in my opinion used far more force than necessary with this person and acted extremely unprofessional especially with the profanity they used towards this person that was not being directed at them, HOWEVER, it never ceases to amaze me how people bring trouble on themselves insisting on open carrying. I am as pro 2nd amendment as anyone but why, why subject yourself potentially to this kind of treatment-especially in Philadelphia!

Rusty

I live in Iowa and Iowa is an open carry state. Even though it is an open carry state you are stating I should conceal to avoid being harrased by law officials. It is my right to carry openly. Should I be harrased for voting for public officials or anyone else ? That’s one of our rights also. I have a drivers license, should I be harrased for driving a car ?
I can understand a police officier asking me to see my permit, and I will happy to produce it, but what this guy went though is way out of line. Anyone who thinks this officier of the law acted professionaly is also out of line.

pastor t

Hey Rusty I live in IA and I just got my permit to carry can you give me a link to go to to see for myself the right to open carry you mentioned?

Anonymous

Open carry in most of Iowa is not really comparable to open carry in schitzside Philly.

Stratus41298

He could’ve been more compliant. Its regrettable what happened but the officer doesn’t know whether he is telling the truth or not. Its your job as a citizen to obey the officer until everything is safe. That being said, those were some of the rudest cops I’ve ever heard. Why so angry?? They got “their man” without any problems.

Stepcof

To many people in authority with uncontrollable emotional problems. I see it every day. But to allow them to carry a badge and a gun? Scary!!

Bradtheskiking

This is not very responsible behavior on the the suspects part at all. Sometimes its better to be wrong than DEAD right. He could have got himself killed and then it would not have mattered whether or not he had the right to carry.
If he would have shut up and listened he would have had a lot better encounter.
I believe in concealed carry and do so alot, but if a cop tells me to do something be quiet and put my hands up I’m going to do it.

Jdmelm3

YOU ARE ENTIRELY CORRECT. hE MADE THE REST OF US SUSPECT!!

Mike2dotcom

Nonsense

Hackysac05

Isn’t PA an Open Carry state???

Wayne

In PA the law is that to carry openly in a City of the First Class (determined by size as best I could figure out and Philly is the only one) you need the LTCW better known as a Carry permit. While he was in completely compliance with the law many PS LEOs don’t know the law and often are actively encouraged to harass legal gun owners and those with the right to carry both openly and concealed. I used to live in Philly when it was virtually impossible to get a carry permit. Now it is just hard. I now live in Lancaster, PA. No suck problem getting a permit. But in a phone conversation with mayor Grey of Lancaster he told me that if his police department sees me open carrying they will arrest me no matter what the law says

Jdmelm3

Wouldn’t that be illegal with recourse in court?

Wayne

Yes but politicians don’t care. Philly has lot every time in court and they still try it.

Anonymous

Yes and it might cost you several thousand to be judged not-guilty.

Keith

The logic here is that a licensed person with an open carry could be threat to the cop, but having the gun hidden would make the cop safe?

Gyro_cfi

Thank you Keith for your sanity in the face of the rabid anti-open carry folks.

Anonymous

I hope they fry these cops. Typical knee-jerk reaction to guns by trained idiots. I can’t believe these cops can get away with not even knowing the laws and they expect us to know and understand all the laws and abide by them.

Anonymous

I think he was WRONG in Open Carrying. Every Police Officer has the right to go Home Alive & Well after work. I think with him Open Carrying and with a Hidden Recorder he was Looking for a Confrontation with the Police to make his point. In a Big City you are going to have some “John Q. Public” get Nervous when they see someone walking the Streets when Open Carrying especially in Today’s World.
That’s exactly WHY we CARRY Today’s World is a Scarry Place with the Crazies out there..
Yes we have the RIGHT to Carry for Self Defense BUT we also have the Responsibility NOT to ALARM the Public when doing so.
I DO NOT believe that Open Carry is either Prudent or Advisable all it does is Advertise to the Criminal Element that you are the FIRST TARGET TO TAKE OUT.
I believe that the Elememt of “SURPRIZE” when Concealed Carrying is More of a Deterent to the Criminal. This way they have to be Warry of EVERYONE SURPRIZING them with a Weapon when Committing their Crimes.

Mike2dotcom

open carry is legal…period that is the issue the rest is just your opinion, I believe one should be able to do either, there are plus and minuses to both sides

Anonymous

Your Right that that is “Just my Opinion”…. AND “THAT’S ALL THAT
COUNTS”.

It’s IDIOTS like him and YOU that HURT the Rights that we
enjoy…………

sloopyinca

Are you a cop? I wouldn’t be surprised, based on your desire to subjugate Constitutional Rights for the safety of people who volunteer to be policemen and -women.

Those cops volunteered to uphold the laws, not bully people because the current laws make them “uncomfortable.” Don’t like the job? Think it’s too dangerous? Then quit. Don’t try to limit our rights to make yourself safer. Find another job that you are qualified for and feel safe at. A security job at Wal-Mart ought to be right in your wheelhouse based on your above mastery of the English language.

Ted

Kind of hard to uphold the law when you don’t know the law….

Guest123

No kiddin’. Who made him a police officer?

I would sue, sue, sue, and then sue some more. Words couldn’t describe how pissed I would be. I would own Philadelphia and rename it after myself and then set it on fire and then piss on it. Wipe it off the map, ’cause it’s only full of filth.

Anonymous

I don’t even know you, but I will bet that if there weren’t the smell of money at the end, YOU would never had said the word SUE. You Sir, are not interested in human rights, you are interested in grandure and money.

Franmar48

If we don’t hit them where it hurts, they will never change. And, unfortunately, lawsuits are the best way to get their attention. You might also file a Commercial Lein against the Officer’s property, and watch as he digs out from under it. Past time to fight back if you value your God-given rights. Liberal mamby-pamby pandering does not work.

Anonymous

So the taxpayers forking out money to pay off the bad officers’ conduct is an improvement for the public. Interesting concept.

How would destroying the LEOs life improve OUR 2nd RIGHT to open carry in a crime ridden city?

I’m not a liberal at all, just wondering how the general trend of this entire thread about crucifying the LEOs furthers our 2nd amendment rights. Placing fear into the hearts of the city government, or what?

Keithw75

Yes. The city and the officers who uphold the laws should be terrified of violating people rights. That supersedes their safety. They decided to put their lives at risk when they signed on for the job.

Ddjrfd

So, because they “signed up for the job” they give up the right to self defense? If the type of job you take makes you a lesser human being, and you are therefore supposed to forfeit your life to protect Keithw75’s rights?You sir are wrong headed! If this were logical who would sign up for the job?

Troy Lindsey

You seriously have no clue what you are talking about do you? How would they be “giving up” their right to self defense? No one is taking their weapons away from them and no one is forcing them to do the job. You don’t apply for a job were you have to carry a gun on you and then think that everyone else should have to give up theirs so you can be a little bit “safer.” If they don’t like that they HAVE to allow people their rights then they can quite the damn job. YOU sir, are the one that is wrong in the head.

Anon

the individual and dept should be educated and disciplined, THAT would help our 2nd

Ryan Santos

Totally wrong my Friend, the only one you Hurt, is We the People, that pays the bills.  People with that kind of Power assigned to them, should go through a very strict evaluation.  The Job attracts to many loonies and Nut jobs with what we call the Wyatt Earp syndrome, just look at Postal workers,TSA workers,CBP workers, USDA workers, FDA workers, you think those Dim Wits know that they work for We The People, government makes no moeny anywhere to cover their salaries, except by stealing from We the People…Blessed Be,  Ryan Santos,  American

Robert

I have a lot of respect for cops and firemen and miltary, especially as my son is 2 of 3. Here in Oregon, the 2 cops I’ve been stopped by were good wit hmy concealed carry as long as I told them from the get go and didn’t move suddenly or threateningly. Most cops, at least here in the Northwest, are 2nd Amendment supporters, though I know there are some sketchy ones in the Portland area and have been in Seattle too. I’ve only done open carry a couple of times, aside from up in the mountains, and that was in my car on a couple of long trips, so never had a confrontation in that way. I do have to take exception with your ideas on government employees. As a former postal employee, I resent what you said. You need to think about this. People in even public jobs represent a cross section of Americans, whether for better or worse, it’s what it is. When you have a group of hundreds of thousands of people in the same profession, you’re bound to have some flakes, it’s unavoidable, there are just too many to catch all the crazies, but most of us are as normal as the next person. Most cops are good cops, unfortunately, there seem to be places like NYC and Philly, and as I said, Portland and Seattle out here, that have no business being cops, more than in other places. Were I a cop, if I saw a person with a holstered weapon, I would be more likely to think better of that person than some flakey looking person with a gun tucked in their belt. And regardless, even if he felt like he was in danger, he could unholster his weapon without pointing it a person, until he determined what was going on. And it’s pretty sad that these cops don’t know what they are talking about, and if it takes a lawsuit to bring it all out in the open, and compensate him for his distress, so be it. Think of all the publicity the case would engender and put it out there in front of the world, where it should be. maybe it will help get more qualified officers hired, and MAYBE, put mayors and political appointee chiefs and others on notice that this kind of behavior isn’t acceptable.

Anon

unfortunately, the only legal remedy against gov abuse is $$$, not criminal. just how it is, not how it should be

Gunteacher19143

the key is know the law read read read

Mmmmtoasted

If you want to educate the police on the law, there’s a better way to do it.
Another thing, we don’t know what you look like or what you were doing. You could look like a bad-ass with an attitude. (Doubt it.) You may have been peaking in car windows and testing the lock. We can only take your word for it.

Clay

I think the Cops were wrong BUT….. Why did the guy have a recorder unless he was looking for trouble, And why not just get down and then get everything straightened out later, Why risk getting shot. If you get accused of speeding and you didn’t speed do you record it and drive away and refuse to stop and take the ticket?

If the guy carrying the gun was in the right he could have taken it up later in court or with the cops supervisor, Cops have a tough job they are getting shot at and killed at a pretty alarming rate
I kind of have to side with the cop and who knows maybe that city has a amendment to the carry laws and they do not allow open carry in there city..

And as far as he (the cop) knows this guy could be a nut that was going around getting ready to shoot someone, I would have gotten on the ground and then after the dust settled (no pun intended) and then explained to the cop about the law or showed him the regulation that gave the wearer the right to open carry,

As for the cop maybe he may have taken it to far but he has a tough job and the way the nuts are now a days I might have done the same just watch the news or a few episodes of cops and you may think about it differntly…. I just think the whole could have been handled differently on both sides..

..Just my opinion (and no I’m not a cop)…

LargeSarge

Why have a recording device? Did you listen to the recording? I always carry a recording device (open or concealed carry) because otherwise it’s my word against several overzealous, power hungry cops. Who do you think the courts wil believe?

professor

why did he have a recorder unless he was looking for trouble? Why have a gun unless you are looking for trouble? He wisely carried a recorder because cops everywhere have proven time after time they have no regard for the law except however they can twist it in their favor. They have a tough job? They signed up for it, they should be prepared for however tough it gets AND know the laws they are supposed to be upholding; NOT being incompetent jerks.

Tampa Carrying

Yeah, the guy carrying was clearly in the wrong. Police are not robots and they are going to make mistakes. When a policeman says “on your knees” you may not like it and it may be demeaning but he has the legal right to do that based on his belief or probable cause and imminent danger (even if he later turns out to be wrong). If it turns out to be a case of false arrest we have a court system for that, but we cannot have a world where we each decide for ourselves what is legal. Every time in my life I have been detained by police for some misunderstanding they have always been polite and apologized when the error was discovered.

Jdmelm3

AGREE-HE WAS LOOKING FOR TEOUBLE AND WAS OBSTINATE!!

Zeusr1

With out a doubt the guy wanted a confrontation, he purposely provoked the police by open carrying what people don’t realize is that even with a permit when carrying open you can still be arrested for inciting a riot . that being said the frustration the cops expressed was only after the guy blatantly refused to cooperate as a concealed permit carrier I have been in this position and understand how the cops felt here .Also the guy really needs to read the back of his permit carrying is a privilege and can be revoked if abused he definitely abused

JDMELM3

AGREE

Vern Stonecipher

First. I have had a CC permit 10 + years and carry all the tme., Second, were the cops overzealous, overbearing, obnoxious? Yes, definitely. This is a prime example of why I am against open carry, especially in an urban, heavily populated area. Might be fine in Montana. Not smart in Philly. The cop was certainly not accustomed to seeing someone carry openly. Mark drew attention to himself by doing so. Would a typical ( if there is such) cop respond in a similar manner in Philly or else where. Probably. Because you have the right to do something doesn’t make it smart to do it. Mark drew the cops attention and the attention of everyone he passed, good guys and bad guys. Cops are trained in handgun retention. Several times a year some cop is shot with his own gun lost in a scuffle or attempted arrest. Has Mark had training in handgun retention? If he insistes in carrying openly he better get some training I am just surprised one of these badge heavy cops did not take the recorder, stomp it in the ground and beat the s..t of Mark. He is lucky.
Stoney in Okla.

Anonymous

I’m in favor of open carry everywhere for the same reason you oppose it, because it is uncommon and therefore worrisome in many places. If it were more common, it would just be The Way It Is and people, especially cops wouldn’t be so quick to overreact.

Superiormirage

Here are my thoughts on the matter: My father was a police officer for 30 years before retiring. As his son, I worried about him coming home every time we heard about a police shootout in my home city. I can understand my the officer drew his weapon and pointed it at the gentleman. That was for his safety so he could go home to his family.

That being said, I believe the officer was way out of line when he was offered proof of a permit to carry and refused it. There was no need for that incident to escalate to the level it did. Obviously the officer did not know Philadelphia law and he was proved wrong by the end of the clip.

wildcatkit52

I disagree… Had the open carrier been showing any signs of aggression or dangerous behavior it would have been sufficient for the officer to draw a weapon. He set the wrong tone from the beginning do to his above the law attitude.

That being said, the OC was baiting them. He should have shut his mouth but he wanted a confrontation. They where both wrong. The cops more so.

What the tape shows is the true behavior of police officers. Though the OC wasn’t fully complying he DID offer to show his ID and permit AND explain. The cop decided NOT to listen at all and labeled the man as trouble though he gave no initial issues to the officer but to explain while being nonthreatening. He kept his hands up and offered what he should have offered.

When backup arrived they assaulted him as he stood in compliance. He was polite through the event while being threatened with death by the officer.

I’d have done things differently but his tape shows that cops are in a position to mold the law as they see fit. This would not be the case if everyone was allowed to open carry and defend themselves. The cop would have passed him by without a glance and never been in a situation in which he might not have made it home to his family. He ALSO could have done the same if he KNEW THE LAWS HE IS PAID TO UPHOLD AND ENFORCE!

Anonymous

The whole problem started from…… what?……… Blatant open carry with his recorder on= looking for a confrontation.

Bones1389

The whole problem started from….what?…..blatant public free speech, exercising of one’s religion, peaceable assembly, filing grievance with the government, and selling newspapers on the street corner.

Really? The exercising of rights is never the start of a problem. But it did show people that a problem exists with police officers not knowing or respecting the law.

H&K

The whole problem started from…… what?……… Blatant cop did not know the laws!!!

Mailman

Walking down the street exercising his rights and also protecting himself by recording an interaction between himself and some PUBLIC SERVANTS in public. There is no expectation of privacy when in public. I am glad he was able to get it all on tape. Now I hope he can get the City of Philadelphia to compensate him for violating his GOD-GIVEN right of self protection.

Clay

P.S. I don’t think this is helps the fight to make other states open carry states, To me this only gives ammunition to the other side to say …See this is why we do not want or need citizens armed, because they get the gun and they think the law does not apply to them they think they are cops and they wont listen to law officers..And a million other arguments for the other side…

Wayne

Sorry but wrong. This guy followed the law. from experiences and living in Philly I know the cops didn’t. Philly over the years has constantly tried to exclude itself from the State’s gun laws. They have consistently been stopped in every court. It is an unwritten policy it seems amongst Philly police that no one but them should have guns. It is the only place in PA where you have to have a face to face interview before they even consider issuing a permit. That alone is against sate law.

JDMELM3

AGREE-POOR JUDGEMENT ON THE PART OF THE CITIZEN!!

Anonymous

AMEN AMEN AMEN

LargeSarge

A right not exercised is a right lost.

Ny152joe

This man did nothing wrong. It sounded like this cop was a liberal and wanted to supress the rights of the citizens. This cop should have his badge taken away, he doesn’t respect the law he demands respect without earning it.

Anonymous

A liberal? No kidding? Really? Maybe he had a fight with his wife and just wanted to rock and roll.

Jethrotrc

and maybe you dont know what happen either, were you one of the LEO’s here since your so defensive of them

Anonymous

I apologize Sir. Of course, LEOs are not humans, they are, what is that term, pigs.

cawpin

You better sue the hell out of the Philadelphia PD for this. That is the only correct course of action. I support the police FULLY ALL THE TIME but they must also follow the law.

It was illegal for them to even detain you after you said you had a carry permit and offered to show it to them.

Tracy Campbell

It’s interesting that these officers were SO certain this guy was breaking the law that they had no problem pointing a gun at him, cursing him, making him get on the ground, and essentially treating him like a lowlife criminal, THEN they get on the radio asking if there’s open carry in Philadelphia. CLASSIC!!!

Cerberus

I have a couple of observations.

(1) Rights go away if we don’t exercise them. While a legitimate point can be made that Mark was flirting with disaster by legally carrying openly, he was acting properly, and prudently [by carrying the recorder]. The fact that he had the recorder on suggests he already knew the risk he was taking. I don’t interpret this as him “looking for a confrontation” but that he recognized that the risk was there. If more licensed folks carried openly [against the preferences of police] cops would eventually learn they weren’t automatic grounds for arrest.

(2) Had he not had that recording device running I doubt things would have turned out even as well for him as they did. Only by having a record of exactly what transpired did the facts stay as they were and not end up “edited for prosecution.” Even so the facts as the officer experienced and reported them differed from those recorded showing how nearly useless even an honest recitation of memory can be.

(3) I’m also almost surprised that the recorder didn’t “disappear” during his confinement in the paddy wagon. The fact that it didn’t suggests that the officers were merely wrongheaded in their beliefs instead of actually evil. They are exposed to so many bad things on a daily basis that it’s easy to see how they automatically assume the worst.

(4) Yes, police are trained to expect the worst case scenario and to act accordingly–that’s as it should be. That said, as soon as Mark offered to show Sergeant XX his permit the cop should have understood that potentially the guy was not a criminal. The cop never [repeat NEVER] deescalated. Mark even recited the policy number he needed to check to know that he was in the right, but the cop already knew HIS policy, and that was all that mattered.

(5) It might have been a bit simpler had Mark carried a printed copy of that policy on his person. I carry copies of our Concealed Carry law in my truck since a sheriff in an adjoining county I sometimes have to be in responded to the initial passage of the law by stating “That may be the law in the rest of MO, but in my county you can’t carry concealed.” It’s a bit tougher to insist on their personal policy when they’re staring at the actual text of state law.

cabopc

If the law says he can open carry then he has the right to open carry and he should be able to do so free of harassment. Those of you who are suggesting that he instead carry concealed are missing the point. The police overreacted and are ignorant of the law. That being said, this guy probably should have been a little more compliant though because he could have been shot. He’s got some guts though. Hopefully the cops involved at least learned something about the law.

Anonymous

GUTS????? The kindest thing I can say is that he is a stupid XXXX. See my posts above.

Poncho

listen again He Was Compliant what more do you want…oh yeah, I bet I know

Anonymous

Pancho, with all due respect Sir… Avoidance of a confrontation is the most important= either with a criminal or a LEO. It is much better to avoid the battle and to live to fight another day. Forcing any confrontation is risky business.

Bluesman

So here is the problem I see with this incident; Yes the police were “overzealous” and blew this way out of proportion however I couldn’t believe my ears at how argumentive Mark was with a bunch of guns pointed at his chest! If this same thing happened to me I would have been a little easier to get along with until the guns were put away. I agree that ‘some’ police officers are pains in the a– and have ‘hair trigger personalities’ which is why I would have had the argument after everybody holstered their weapons. I am fully in agreement with our rights to carry lawfully but will tread lightly while someone has the drop on me.

Anonymous

Amen. I did get arrested once on a bogus gun charge “tell it to the judge” (found innocent in court cost me 2 grand anyway) and I promise you, I did not give them any shirt.

Sj4640

upset with police. should have listen to person about license to carry. the police could have avoidec this kind of situation. the guy as far as i can see w3as totally in the wright from the beginning.

Wiz33064

Hiel

Wiz33064

WOW!!! Is this for real? I guess this man thought his right to carry openly was worth almost dieing for! He could of very easily been shot by that officer, but he stood up for his 2nd amendment right. I am tired of being bullied by the police and their view of the law. I thought it was a cops job to know the laws of the land they protect. Good for you on educating some of Philadelphia’s finest. Must be a lot of them that got PUNKED in school and now have a badge and think they are GOD. Freaking Punks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

coopdog

well, being a former LEO, Marine retired, and homeland security, a few things come to mind. 1. common curtesy? having been spoken to like this is beyond unprofessional. to get out of your car with your weapon pointed at the law abiding citizen??? no pun intended…jumping the gun alittle bit r we? 2. 53 minutes to clear the situation??? jeez. in the academy if we took more than 15 mins on a felony stop, you were counseled. 3. he prevented the person from recording the situation stating it was against the law. no, it’s not. they do it with car cameras. 5 police cars and officers for a person with a gun? also on the 53 minutes. does no one within the police department KNOW the statutes??? when I was a deputy, we carried a copy of the statutes with us and most r online now. 53 minutes!!!! I hope he sues and wins and the officer is at least suspendede WITHOUT pay. sorry offricer, you were wrong. He kept saying “I don’t know you” duh? that give him the right to draw down on you?? I also love how the officer was acuesing him of doing it on purpose. Yeah; and my department taught me to call people junior. how about “excuse me sir,”. anyway. I hope he wins.

Wayne

Having lived in Philly most of my life this is their exact behavior and attitude.

tarawa1943

I do know the East Coast in general can be a hard place to live like PA, NJ, MD, NY..etc. Is that a reason for the behavior that approaches perverted? That behavior, if not checked, will drive out all the good people to other states more friendly, eventually.

GUNTEACHER19143

WAYNE FUNNY U SAY THAT I HAVE LIVE IN NY,NJ,MD PA,DC BEEN STOP WITH FIREARMS ON ME AND IN MY VEHICLE AND ONLY IN NY CITY I SPENT 22 HOURS IN JAIL FOR THEM TO HAVE TO BEG ME NOT TO SUE THEM I THINK A HOT HEAD WILL MAKE THE PROBLEM SO BAD WHEN U KNOW YOUR LAWS I MEAN KNOW THEM NOT THINK U DO

Vanns40

As retired LEO I completely agree with you. There is NOTHING wrong with open carry and these LEO’s are a disgrace to the badge and uniform.

Anonymous

Hey, I had 7 (seven) troopers with hands on guns surrrounding me at a daytime routine traffic stop at mile marker 3, I-74 in west Indiana. My violation= driving a car with legal tinted windows and an out of state license plate. Hard lining the 4th amendment I finally drove away in 45 minutes, and they were not happy troopers. It was not fun.

tarawa1943

Did anyone listen to the officer? The perverted language, it is a sure sign he is not trained in ANYTHING except gestapo tactics. There was not gunfight because that is the condition the officer displayed. Being scared is not justification for that kind of behavior for the officer. Conversely, the citizen was not wise although legal, he may have deserved what he tried to provoke. There are other states that allow OC, without a permit. I have lived there and the officers get nervous but even the young warrior 1st responders remain calm and professional. I pray for and support Police Officers but regardless of the physical abuse the verbal is enough to send any decent human in shock.
You can get all deep on this but it is sadly a sign of the times that needs more reforming. The men+ladies in uniform need our prayers as the country is degenerating to a level where a little bit of stress causes the Officer to draw down on a Legal OC citizen? I hope I am making the right point here and understandable. The recording issue is something I have considered, as I have been on the nasty end of a citizen and officer confrontation, and it was legal.

GUNTEACHER19143

SOME HUMAN DONT KNOW HOW TO TALK TO PEOPLE HOW DID THEY GET A PUBLIC SERVICE JOB IN THE FIRST PLACE

Safeguntraining

Prime example of why I am against open carry as well. It appears to me that this guy was looking for a confrontation and that is exactly what he got. However, it’s obvious these officers acted very unprofessional in their treatment of this person.

On a side note, I don’t know the law in PA but in Florida it is illegal to record without consent.

Anonymous

Agree. Most places it is legal to record any situation if ONE of the persons recorded is aware of the recording.

Busdown3

I worked with the Florida Dept. of Corrections for 30 years. After dealing with inmates for this length of time I do understand the concern of the police officer. I feel it would have been better for Mr. Fiorino to have followed the officers demands and then file a complaint later.

Scott

As a former police officer I am appalled at the lack of professionalism on the part of these police officers. That being said, I don’t think the time to argue the law is while a police officer has his weapon trained on your chest. If you listen closely at around minute 8 on the part one you can hear the sergeant trying to justify the stop to someone. All in all, this just goes to show you what happens when cops think that they should be the only ones trusted to carry, and how easily it could have gone wrong.

Zue

Starting wiht Jr. is the unprofessionalism. It is not in ones best interest to argue with a Police officer’s directions. Comply and protest later. The police might have been looking for a suspect who matches your description. Arguing about the law is for calm conversation, not when weapons are backing an officer’s order. There are tens of thousands of laws and many officers, eventually you may encounter one who shall detain first and question later.

JimSmitty

But the police expect every citizen to know all the laws. “Ignorance of the law is no excuse” goes both ways!!

Anonymous

AH, a rational thinker. You are correct. Maybe they were looking for a suspect.
Thanks for your comment.

ObamaTard

Are you a moderator now? LOL

Anonymous

ROFLMAO, thanks libtard

Zue

Calvin is there any follow up on this incident? It should not take to long to look up a city ordinance if you gave the number to the police. Did the Police Department admit that it is lawful to carry within Philly with a permit? I doubt if the department would apologize although it would be in order.

Robthurmond

Thought police officers were trained in how to defuse a situation-the language and attitude that seargent adopted in this situation was enough to make any normal person become combative who was not already-hats off to the dude for keeping his cool. That police officer should be fired-its obvious with his attitude that he is a risk to people on the streets.

[…] have seen this already, pretty interesting situation here. Like to know ya'lls opinion on it. Philadelphia Open-carrier Harassed by Police with Audio Kind of a long listen, I'm only through the first part myself. Reply With Quote […]

Anonymous

It sounded as though they at first took the recorder away from Mark along with his firearm because the recording more loudly records officers talking and radio traffic than the sounds of Mark’s voice in the background. I know the arresting officer was not pleased that the recorder was running, and we can only assume that to be because without it, the *official* version of what happened was going to be *whatever the officer said* whereas with the recorder going we’d be stuck with objective reality instead. Interesting how Cop Dashcams are perfectly OK, but citizen recording to clear up any discrepancies as to what may have happened would NOT be OK, particularly with the long history of police abusing their authority under color of law.

I do have a problem with it being interpreted as “acting provocatively” for Mark to be acting in a legal fashion by carrying openly. It sounded as though he cooperated fully with the officer. Attempting to point out things like that he had a concealed carry license would seem to be well within his rights, and just because you engage an officer in conversation, particularly to inform him of things he needs to know should never be interpreted as “giving lip.”

The fact that the officer so willingly suggested that he’d give Mark access to Internal Affairs suggests to me first of all that the officer didn’t understand the law, and that even though the officer realized that he’d over-reacted that he didn’t think he’d other than be completely cleared by the inside investigation of IA. I expect he’ll eventually have to file suit if he wants any kind of satisfaction from this unfortunate incident.

Anonymous

Having a license and having good judgement are totally different things….. as shown by cowboy Mark.

CIDAV8R

In my opinion, this guy was looking for this to happen. This 24 year old child was carrying openly in Philadelphia and carried a tape recorder which tells me he wanted a confrontation. He had obviously rehearsed his own response, he set it up and he got it. I’ve seen this so many times with gun rights people – not as much to this extent but usually in a more administrative way. People have the legal right to do something so they shove it in other people’s face. I think this is stupid. First, it’s stupid to provoke a confrontation with a police officer. When a cop points a gun at your chest and tells you to do something – DO IT. Don’t ask questions. Don’t make comments. Don’t debate him. Follow instructions to the letter. If you have a problem with the cop, deal with it after the situation has been defused. Second, it’s stupid to walk down the street flaunting your right to carry openly knowing full well that much of the general public are going to be shocked and scared to see a firearm carried openly and that this is going to get attention. In terms of promoting gun rights, this is the WORST thing anyone can do.

The last several years have seen an enormous expansion of gun rights across the country. The Heller case in DC and the McDonald case in Chicago both have provided a legal basis for this and it’s a HUGE victory for us. People are applying for, and receiving, CCW permits in record numbers. Hooray! Don’t do anything stupid to screw it up! The fact that all this has happened so quickly means that sheeple haven’t had time to adjust to it. If YOU are smart, YOU will give them that time. We need to show the sheeple that guns AREN’T scary and that guns AREN’T evil things. You don’t do this by waving them in their face. All this will do is bolster anti-gun efforts. Tides change the advances we have made can be taken away just as quickly.

We need to maintain and even increase the momentum we’ve established in the last several years. You do this by demonstrating to the sheeple how responsible and safe you are. You do this by quietly and respectfully exercising your rights. Make the sheeple comfortable and put them to sleep. In the mean time, you work to educate the sheeple, you help to slowly build statistics that PROMOTE our cause, you work to persuade ALL law enforcement to support us, and we all continue to work through government and the legal system to expand and protect our rights. Carry a gun to protect yourself, NOT to make a public statement or get your 15 min of fame on CNN or the local news or YouTube.

The constitution is a beautiful, wonderful, amazing document but it only works if we have smart people who can handle responsibility. This guy was stupid. BE SMART.

Mike2dotcom

24 year old child? I was already a Viet-Nam vet by that age my son has already been to Iraq and now in Afghanistan at 24.. If it was a set up it shows why it needed to be done. I support law enforcement but they too must maintain professionalism and give respect to a person they are only questioning not arresting

Anonymous

Oh was this cowboy a 24 year old combat veteran? If he was, he would have had better judgement than to do what he did.

Anonymous

Oh was this cowboy a 24 year old combat veteran? If he was, he would have had better judgement than to do what he did.

CIDAV8R

Not all 24 year old’s are the same. I think this one was acting childishly in an attempt to garner attention. The fact that I used the word “child” was to set him apart from other 24 year old’s from whom you might expect more adult behavior and attitudes. I’m sorry you didn’t understand that.

My thanks to you and your son who served. Undoubtedly you were an adult at 24. I don’t believe this person is.

Bill Durham

You seem to have missed the fact that the OFFICER caused this whole incident. If the OFFICER knew the law, he would not have drawn down on, and instigated trouble with, this LAW ABIDING CITIZEN.
It really doesn’t matter if the CITIZEN knew this was going to happen, and was prepared for it. The OFFICER caused all of what took place, simply because of his ignorance. Ignorance is not a set-up.

Anonymous

No, sorry. The officer did not start the incident. The open carry in an inappropriate place started the incident. The copper just sent it into schitzville. I say again, Mark is lucky he is alive.

Jethrotrc

STFU

CIDAV8R

Profanity is the attempt of a weak mind to express itself forcefully. This forum is here for the free exchange of opinion and ideas. Yours is not the only one that matters. Contribute positively or go away.

Anonymous

Oh come on, you can do better than letters…….. why don’t you use an ad homenem attack or play the racial card……. you know how, you’re good at it.

Anonymous

I agree. This cowboy was looking for trouble, trying to prove he is a macho gaucho.

Anonymous

I agree. This cowboy was looking for trouble, trying to prove he is a macho gaucho.

Riana

Wait… because I carry (sometimes openly, sometimes not), and happen to have a voice recorder in my purse (yes, it’s running), I’m LOOKING for a confrontation? If a strong breeze blows back my cover garment as I walk by a police car, I’m LOOKING for a confrontation? No. Looking for a confrontation would be waving the gun around and calling the officer every colorful name I could think of as he drove by. What this guy did was make the mistake of walking to an auto parts store to get a part to fix his car. Oh, and be in Philadelphia.

The officer started into this encounter with a full head of steam – calling the carrier “Junior”, drawing down on him before even seeing his face. From the audio, I can’t tell that the carrier wasn’t complying with the orders he questioned (e.g., going to his knees and asking “Why?” which is what I would have done).

I can forgive the officer for not knowing the law 100% – that’s not an easy thing to tackle. But when offered the carrier’s permit to carry, he should have called dispatch and ASKED someone, “Hey, here’s the carrier’s name, permit, etc – I need to verify if it is legal to OC here with this permit.” He could have at least tried to find out. Instead, he took every word from the carrier and assumed it was an insult (which is not what I heard).

CIDAV8R

Riana, you carry as you see fit and justify your actions as you like. I don’t see a reason to carry openly in this situation unless he was trying to provoke a response or draw attention. The purpose of carrying a weapon is for defense, you don’t need to carry openly to accomplish that, in fact, carrying concealed is likely more effective. Most DPS officers encourage permit holders to carry concealed and I agree with them for the reasons they cite. Retreat is always the best option if available and is required by law in many states. Going visibly heeled is provocative and should the need arise to defend yourself, may work against you in court. But if you know better, do as you like. I won’t waste time trying to convince you.

Riana

I wasn’t intending a discussion of the merits of OC vs. CC. I was concerned that you believe the carrying of a voice recorder means that someone is looking for a confrontation: “…was carrying openly in Philadelphia and carried a tape recorder which tells me he wanted a confrontation.”

Am I mis-interpreting your statement? If so, my apologies.

And while I understand your concern for scaring people with an openly carried firearm, I don’t understand how a concealed one can educate them. Can you clarify?

CIDAV8R

You don’t educate by the act of carrying – I don’t know where you got that. You educate by communicating – explaining, patiently, the merits of gun ownership and CCW in a non-threatening way. However, guns evoke emotional responses from people who are not used to them. When people are scared, many people lose the ability to think rationally. We need them to think rationally if we are going to win them over. My whole point was that we need to help anti-gun people feel comfortable while we carry. OC is not a good start to this process. In other words, you get farther with honey than vinegar.

It is my opinion, based on the combination of facts that he was carrying openly on the doorstep of the most anti-gun area in the country, carrying an active voice recorder, and the way he responded to the officer, that he was looking for a confrontation. Do I KNOW this? No. I can’t possibly know what he was thinking. But I think the facts support my supposition and, based on my experience, I would judge that to be the case. Feel free to disagree, but recognize that you don’t KNOW for sure either.

ProjectDexter

Philly is a dangerous place, definitely not the city of brotherly love. I would open carry simply for the intimidation factor over bad guys if that is indeed legal. Permit holders and LEO are on the same side, too bad most don’t see it that way.

Ccnordlund

AND WHERE IS THE I’M SORRY FROM THE POLICE??????

Tracy Campbell

I have a feeling that will follow in the form of a cash settlement.

Anonymous

Ya. Mark probably should buy the cops’ dinner for not shooting his axx.

Anonymous

He should buy them dinner for doing their job terribly? Way to reward incompetence.

Anonymous

they weren’t incompetent enough to shoot him, were they?

Doc Luther

I think the police started the altercation with the condescending “Hey, Junior!” comment That said, there is no place for pride when carrying open or concealed, and the guy should have simply complied but still recorded everything.

The police here in Prince William County, VA are a little more understanding of open carry would not harasse someone needlessly. I KNOW Philly is a high crime area, but it would take a real idiot of a bad guy to open carry.

Simply put, the cop should have taken a more gentle approach.

Anonymous

The police started with “hey Junior”?????? How did they know to holler at him? Like I said, he was pushing the limit to show off, and it bit him. He is lucky he is not injured or dead. I could have been right along side of him concealed, and they wouldn’t have bothered me.

[…] Police harass open carrier Philadelphia Open-carrier Harassed by Police with Audio It would be nice if these guys knew the law before pointing a gun at an innocent person. One cop […]

tarawa1943

This is not just un-professional but rancid puke, just the blasphemous mouth of the office is enough to make one bitter against all law enforcement officers. Open carry is legal in many states but who wants to get abused like this. This is not only illegal but almost approaching the gestapo level of puke.

Anonymous

All ya gotta do is keep the damn thing concealed. Nothing would have happened, would it?

Anonymous

All ya gotta do is know the law, Officer. Nothing would have happened, would it?

Mischl

I don’t like a bunch of cowboy cops rolling over top of my constitutional rights. I carry openly AND concealed, depending upon the circumstances. If I ever get treated like that by any kind of law enforcement officer, I WILL hire the best & meanest lawyer available. I’m not the least interesting in suing for money–but I WILL sue for my rights as a citizen.

Poncho

wrong

Goofball4

Why don’t the cops know the laws that they as supposed to be upholding? If they did, nothing would have happened, would t?