Should Concealed Carry in College by Staff and Students be Allowed?

Should Concealed Carry in College by Staff and Students be Allowed?

After events like What Tragedies Like The Delta State University Shooting Teach Us, it ought be argued that concealed carry by staff and students is a smart idea for college. While the detractors argue to the high heavens about whether or not some disgruntled student will do this or that — we’re seeing that in “gun free zones”, the criminals get to make the rules.

All it takes is for one armed gunman to make his way onto a “gun free campus” and it’s pretty much a waiting game until law enforcement can arrive. When seconds can last minutes and the recent Delta State University search lasted into half a day — the odds are against anyone on campus who’s lawfully unarmed when dealing with a serious, dedicated foe.

As we’ve seen in countless other shooting incidents, when a zone is arbitrarily designated “gun free”, all it means is that anyone caught in that area has to wait for police and first responders to arrive on the scene.

Once on the scene, first responders and police have to quickly sift through “friend or foe”. In a hectic situation, it’s extremely difficult to confirm origin of the shooting, who’s injured, who’s dead, and who’s at-risk. Having concealed carriers on the ground when law enforcement arrives means at least you have other eyes which have been on the situation since it developed. Even if it’s simply securing classrooms and shelters, it enables other students to know that their safety is a priority.

See Also: Your College Kid’s Guide to Personal Protection

Another tragic part about the Delta State University fiasco was that while Mississippi is one of the few states which does not legally prohibit concealed carry on university and college campuses, administrators are still granted the privilege of restricting large swaths of the campus from concealed carriers. And as any college student or university employee would know — the time to transition between parts of the campus between classes is slim. For a concealed carrier interested in keeping his firearm holstered throughout the day would be unnecessarily dissuaded from doing so by the threat of crossing across a “gun free zone”.

Few, if any witnesses reported the actual gunman and law enforcement spent hours determining whether or not he was even still on campus. This means that security was/is so lax that it’s virtually guaranteed if someone goes somewhere with harm in mind and a cool head, he or she would have no problem walking right into an office and doing so.

The same answer is clear as in any shooting that occurs on a university or college campus — better armed, better trained, and better prepared people are needed. And in order to do that, we can either spend billions hiring on large armies of police to swarm at the first sign of harm or we can enable our own citizens to be prepared and able to defend themselves.

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  • Skip Tortorello

    Trained folks, close to the scene is our best bet. Do it!!

  • Col Ben

    I believe Luke is right on. Citizens have a responsibility and right to defend themselves! Yesterday the FL Senate and House Committees on Criminal Justice approved 2 proposals to allow concealed carry license holders to carry guns on college campuses. I understand there still needs to be 3 more Committees to approve this before changes to the FS 790.06 go before the 2016 legislative session. So just about anything can happen. It is my understanding (but I haven’t researched or read the present proposed changes to law) that this would only apply to PUBLIC colleges in FL, not private. Some are wondering
    why not? I want to keep up with proposed changes to FS 790.06 and see what develops.

    • I wish it were so where I live Col. Ben. Thanks for the update.

  • I agree with Luke, but try to sell it to the administration’s at colleges. I work at one of the largest universities in the country. Not only can I not have a gun, but no weapons at all. If I did and was caught, I’d be fired. Their idea of protection is to shelter in place.

    • Jason Donovan

      You are clearly approaching it wrong. When it comes to the powers, they care about one thing. Money. Whether talking about the negative press they might get if a person employed by them shoots someone or the hit they could take in attendance, its all about money. What you need to do is ask them how much their insurance will cover in the event of a shooter on campus when the families ask the school if every action was taken to ensure the safety of those killed? Then remind them that no, you had emailed them that having someone with a gun on campus might help delay the gunman and buy time for first responders to arrive thus, not every action was taken. Then the schools insurance company will be paying out a fortune as will the school because they chose to NOT take every action because they weren’t keen on guns and didn’t want even a friendly with a gun on campus. I actually love sending emails to all staff stating something along that line and removing the schools ability to plead ignorance. I got several idiots fired because they claimed one thing and someone presented my email to them and it wasn’t pretty. You work at one college but I work with over 40 from JC to whatever. There is a way to get through to them and enable you to get approval to be armed. If you’d like private message me and I have no problem working with you on it.

      • Carl

        Thanks Jason for bringing that up. It needs to be known by everyone working at colleges/universities. And thanks for giving the opportunity to help those here.

      • Really? The president of where I work paid the clintons $500K to come and hang out for two days. Guess again.

        • Jason Donovan

          WHY do you think he/she paid to have the clintons come? Money. I appreciate that you want to argue that they did it for some other reason, but no matter what, it always comes down to money.

        • Jason Donovan

          Also, I notice you didn’t bother to private message me which to me means that 1. you are BS’ing about everything you are saying 2. you are in no position to argue or speak to your executive staff 3. you are so low on the totem pole that you may not have all the details. Since I commonly work directly with the presidents, VPs CFO’s and higher executive branches and boards of colleges and universities, I’d understand if most of what I am discussing with you is above your pay grade. I remember a conversation I had with a lowly member who felt like you and was not afraid to voice her opinions as wrong as they were. However, when I confronted her and made it clear there were many other factors playing in, she tried to play it off as if she knew what she was talking about but in actuality was clueless. Then after some time the President and board proved her wrong as expected because everything was in place and allowed them to handle the matter directly finally. I don’t know what your position is, but if you honestly wish to make a difference, feel free to message me, if not, stop being part of the problem and just stay quiet while those of us who do wish to make a difference do so.

          • GyMack

            Holy chit Batman. Based on how you respond to others in this forum, I believe you to be a subject matter expert in BS.
            You seem to believe that you can talk to any dean or similar position – and they will turn around and allow persons to be armed. WTH you believe that only your opinion matters.
            Just say no to drugs, dude – you sound like a LibTard.
            Stay safe.

          • Jason Donovan

            There are several type of people in the world. I am regularly asked to offer my expert opinion to campuses in an effort to improve safety and security. I never go in with any agenda, I simply ask questions and during the course of the Q&A most often people tend to have a different perspective then when they went in. Why? Probably because like you, mot people adopt their opinions from half truths and false data and when confronted with real facts and given real irrefutable information they either accept it or like you, start throwing out insults and stick their head in the sand. I’d be happy to invite you along to one of these events and you can see first hand that I am not BS’ing anything, but that isn’t something you would do because you’d rather be right in your mind then be proven wrong and the fool. You even tried to label me to dismiss me and honestly, it screams how insecure you are when faced with the possibility you are wrong. I am fine with being wrong and I learn from it. Show me a better way and I’ll adopt it. Teach me something new and I’ll store it in my mind, but I offered information specific to my profession and an argument I know something about and you called me, an “expert in BS”, made inaccurate assumptions, then implied I am on drugs right before you try and label me as a Libtard. You clearly are an internet idiot and there is no point in wasting time trying to explain anything to you because you are more concerned with having the last word then learning something new.

          • GyMack

            You are a condescending prk based on your need to be recognized by others. I have seen you personally call someone out as uninformed, etc..
            You on the other hand lack the ability to engage in a conversation of which you deny anyone’s, other than your own, opinions.
            I am guessing that you are raking in the money by ripping off the taxpayers via welfare, food stamps, etc..
            You have no skills other than maybe telecommunications.
            You definitely lack people skills cause you talk down to people instead of talking with them.
            When and how did you obtain your alleged expertise?
            How many people have you trained (approximately) regarding your skills? I was right about you in my first message you are a Whiner.
            I have over 20 yrs Law Enforcement experience, along with countless hours teaching a wide variety of subjects relevant to the Law Enforcement, Military, Private Security and private sector communities.
            Go away you whiner.

          • Jason Donovan

            Please enlighten me, how is calling someone uninformed a bad thing? If you say I’m uninformed I’d ask why you think that way and listen to your argument so I could decide if I missed something relevant that might change my opinion. I love conversation, and I enjoy a good debate. What you were doing was not debating, you were labeling and attacking the group. Its arrogant and immature but hey, you live how you want to live buddy. I extended the offer for you to come and join me to see what I do and what the conversations go like but rather than take me up on it you spew more nonsense. I even tried to further explain myself to describe how I came to my opinions and you call me names and lash out. Frankly, between the 2 of us, you are by far the bigger blow hard arrogant wretch whose ego is getting in the way of your brain functioning. I’m sorry you are so hell bent on hating me, but one way or another, you clearly have to hate someone because that’s just the type of person you are. One thing I will point out though, I once met a person who was like you, claimed to have all this experience, claimed to be this and that and kept recommending an antiquated solution to my client. When I confronted him, I asked him why he was suggesting the solution he was and he told me it was the “best choice”. I then asked him if he had considered the client’s other needs, how the other solutions would tie together, how they would be administered, how they could be used and he sat there speechless. I then explained to him as I will to you, being in the industry for years doesn’t make you an expert or your opinion worthwhile and just because you have been teaching for years doesn’t make you a good teacher. You clearly have an ego and an attitude and that doesn’t tend to translate well to teaching. I may be self assured but I am always willing to listen and consider other points and often take other opinions into consideration when drawing up a plan for someone or some place. You remind me of that contractor who was trying to sell the only thing he knew as the “best” choice for everyone. Too old to learn, to arrogant to listen would best describe you.

          • GyMack

            LOL Now that is the same Jason who spews BS from his soup cooler that everyone here recognizes.
            You are the clown who claimed that one guy was either BS or not relevant enough at the college he works at. Or words to that effect.

            Do you even have instructor certifications regarding your area(s) of expertise?

            No matter what subjects I teach I always walk away with more information – as most instructors have an open mind.

            Try to set your ego in the closet when you jump on the computer.

            Stay safe.

          • Jason Donovan

            GYMack, I have to admit, I really enjoy your banter. At least its original for the most part. I did call James irrelevant because much like the students you teach, they don’t know half of the things you have to do in order to teach wherever. They come to class, do what they’re told and leave (hopefully). James wanted to claim I didn’t know what I was talking about and to someone not directly connected to the decision makers at a higher level, he wouldn’t have a clue what’s going on except what rumors he’s picked up. I have worked with so many colleges and universities over the years I become common knowledge that lower level staff is going to ask silly questions or think what I say is outlandish right up till the decision makers make it happen. I don’t know what his position is or what yours is, but based on my OP I offered to invite him along to see what I do first hand and he chose not to take me up on the offer and instead spew nonsense about me. Honestly the whole thing is funny because unlike what you may think of me, I don’t really care what you or anyone on here thinks of me. It won’t hurt my feelings one bit nor will it affect my income in the slightest. I will still earn the exact same amount and still be paid to come out and speak at events. Do I care, sorry but I don’t. You can think I’m some BS blowhard who has no idea what he’s doing and frankly, feel free because either way, your opinion has no impact on my life. I will add that I do hope you and even james enjoy and take a deep breath because I have no plan to waste time responding again. I hope you both the best and best wishes to you both.

          • GyMack

            opinions are like AzzHoles – everyone has one.

            No one likes a person who is a legend in his own mind.

            You do not know the background of the person you attacked. Your only reason for the attack was cause he did not send you a pm like you suggested to him.

            Your character does not match your defined persona.

            Stay safe and say no to drugs.

          • And you are a narcissistic self absorbed blowhard. It’s obvious why you’re a consultant. Management in any self-respecting company wouldn’t put up with your arrogant condescending attitude and neither would co-workers. I’m telling you as I see it. You are welcome to try you’re brand of bullshit here if you like, but you wouldn’t get far.

          • GyMack

            You are on point James. I hope he has packed his bags and left the thread.

            Be safe out there. Its only getting worse out there.

      • Really? The president of where I work paid the clintons $500K to come and hang out for two days. Guess again.

  • Jacob Elliott

    As a student that was actually under the lockdown last Monday at Delta State I appreciate this short article. I have seen too many citing this tragedy as a reason for gun control. While we were locked up in an office wondering if we were going to be next, the thought “Why didn’t I get my carry permit” kept running through my mind. I now intend to get a permit so that next time I won’t be helpless.

    • Bob P

      Jacob, I hope you will follow through on your desire to get your carry permit. Before you do I hope you will read Jason Donovan’s post and bob c’s replay then commit to understand and educate yourself about the responsibilities, mind set, and training they discussed.

  • bob c

    I believe instructors and other personnel should carry, also I am a firm believer in the right to carry. But there should be strict active shooter training in place, all law enforcement needs to do is come into a situation with a scared child who is holding a firearm, it could jeopardize the safety of that child the police and others, also you add the factor of the police now not knowing who the shooter or shooters are, also imagine what kind of crossfire this could create if there are several students, staff, and active shooter, not to mention fatalities from friendly fire. OK, with that being said time to look at the mental stress this could cause a young adult after putting the above situations in place. Taking a life, lives or making a shooter, or innocent bystanders is a series problem, look at our military, look at the PTSD among our soldiers today. I carry a firearm, and taser for work, albeit armed hospital police, I am prior military and former correctional officer, I have quarterly qualifications and active shooter training. I hope I never have to shoot anyone, but I cant imagine going into an active shooter situation and having to try to figure who is the shooter, staff or student. Then one more situation, what do you do when you have a few who just want to make a name for themselves and run into harms way and interfere with law enforcement doing their jobs.

    • Jason Donovan

      please see my above comment.

  • Moonpup

    What I’ve heard from many Libtards in voicing their arguments against arming staff and/or students is their thought process that leads them to believe that every staff member will be required to carry a weapon. They express the idea that some people shouldn’t carry; I agree with that too, just as there are many who drive who shouldn’t be allowed in the front seat of an automobile. You simply can not explain to them that to carry would be a personal decision not a requirement, any logical argument is too foreign a concept to be accepted.

    • Jason Donovan

      I guess my issue is with the reference of “Libtard”. While I understand your reference, and I might even agree with your reasoning, at the end of the day, we are all citizens of the USA and as such, we may differ but we all have the responsibility to protect ourselves how we see fit. I don’t argue with your basic principal, many who are against guns tend to argue no gun is necessary while others argue that all are necessary. The honest answer is yes, there are people who are the exception to every rule no matte what the subject. Firearms, Abortion, Marijuana, etc etc. Whatever your flavor is, there is a group arguing one side or another and frankly, if we consider that the same argument might e used against us in other less favorable places, we might think a little harder and longer on the matter before we answer.

      • Moonpup

        @Jason – I do apologize for the use of that pejorative, when I become frustrated with the Bloomberg disciples who find no lie too big to tell (A lie told often enough becomes the truth -Vladimer

  • James Acerra

    Yes!? When has safety been against education? We have all seen (forgive my saying so) some of the forces, unarmed in most cases that protect our children/young adults and other age groups not to mention the staff. Why it scares people to have a tool available to defend themselves until law enforcement arrives.

  • James Andrews

    Staff, definitely. Students, at least those that live on campus, not a great idea.

    • Jason Donovan

      please see my above comment.

      • James Andrews

        I fully support concealed carry, believe me!

        • Jason Donovan

          I’m not arguing that, I’m challenging your comment of, “Staff, definitely. Students, at least those that live on campus, not a great idea.” I was a student living on campus after I got out of the military so why shouldn’t I have been given the chance to defend myself?

  • Jason Donovan

    OK, to each of you commenters and even the writer, I am a subject matter expert for physical security for higher education. I go to schools all the time and advise what technologies are available and how they can help. Currently there is no technology solution that will stop a gunman…period. Access Control can slow them down, but bullets are extremely efficient keys and windows pose little problem to bullets as well. Cameras will show where the gunman is and give first responders more information quicker to assess and respond. Mass Notification can help keep others away from the area and notify students and staff to stay hidden when the gunman is near. However, once they are in a building, they can go room to room and shoot anyone they see without challenge. That is, unless there is someone shooting back. Police and military all know the term “suppressive fire” because it is the most effective way to keep a shooter from advancing on you and it give the shooter pause to consider 1 of their options 1. give up 2. suicide 3. go another way 4. keep engaging the shooter. That’s it, those are the choices of most mass killers when they first face someone with a gun. James Holmes gave up, Harris and Klebold engaged the shooter till they realized they weren’t getting anywhere and went someplace else and the rest tend to suicide themselves. Do I think having a person on campus with a gun is a good idea, I feel like that is a no brainer but let me state this, I’d rather a teacher be armed with a gun and standing between a gunman and my kid then unarmed.

    As for who should be armed? Well, there lies the best question of the day. My answer is pretty simple, ANYONE WHO ACCEPTS THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR CHOOSING TO CARRY AND EVERYTHING THAT COMES WITH IT!!! Any Concealed Carrier knows that if they ever have to shoot, there is a pretty good chance they are going to get arrested, even if it was self defense. Then comes the court costs, the legal costs, and the defense costs. Last I heard a number, it was in the $20k side of the ballpark. Not something some might want to accept, but to others, its a small price to pay to stay alive.

    Some of you argue that teachers or staff should be able to but not students…WHY? I’ll bet I can change your mind in 2 different ways. 1. how about military or ex military veterans going to school? We trusted them with weapons their entire career, why not also trust them to be responsible enough to handle this? 2. Competition shooters? I knew several students at my old college who were competition shooters and could handle a gun better than anyone else I knew with better accuracy and skill and could put 5 rounds through 5 different targets in under 5 seconds. So, you feel like they wouldn’t be ok to handle a gun and accurately return fire? The point is, I used to think the same way…students are too immature to handle such a responsibility. However, I really did change my tune when I considered that most of my friend in school were shooters themselves. Grew up around guns and were more responsible than those party till they drop idiots we are worried about. I agree, we want responsible people not irresponsible people, but tell me, why should john not have every right to protect himself as the teacher who is also armed? Either we allow people who legally obtain concealed carry licenses to carry or we are being no better than the anti gunners who don’t want anyone armed.

    • bob c

      Jason, you make a good point with veterans and comp shooters. I don’t follow news to much, the state of PA last I heard in 2014 had 5 state owned universities where conceal carry was legal whether these policies were changed or not, I have no idea, but still students were not allowed to carry in buildings or sporting events.
      I have 2 kids in college both are seniors, the college they attend has a descent police force as well as a police training academy and military presence. my question and one reason i would not just any student carrying is, how many states can a person go buy a firearm apply for CCW and not have any formal weapon training? PA does. They offer classes but not mandatory to attend, the county I live in the sheriff offers the classes. Still even if an individual has a little training what happens when police enter room to clear it and the individual starts shooting. All I’m saying is if they carry it should he mandatory they attend extensive training and be approved by a panel of police, psychologist, physician, and Dean of school as well as staff must attend and qualify in active shooter training.
      1.)The police to say that the meet proficiency requirements.
      2,)psychologist to say the are mentally prepared.
      3.)physician to say they are physically able
      4.)Dean of school to say the students are in good standing and have not been in any trouble
      Like I said, both my kids are seniors in college and both are physically and mentally OK, but I would not want them carrying unless they met specific requirements. In PA an 18 year old can purchase a firearm but they have to be 21 to have a LTCF.
      If all these were in place I would feel better about students carrying. But until then I don’t think my mind can be changed. I am not opposed to anyone carrying but I feel they should have training and be familiar with the weapon they carry. Too many people improperly carry even professionals get to relaxed in conceal carry. I’ve seen firearms tucked in a belt in the small of the back, firearms tucked in the front of pants(good way to blow your junk off), firearms sticking out of clothes or imprinting the clothing. Its all about training.

      • Bob P

        Jason & bob, great discussion by 2 intelligent experienced individuals. Your discussion states both sides of the carry debate better than anything I have read or heard previously. Jason’s simple answer ANYONE WHO ACCEPTS THE RESPONSIBILITY FOR CHOOSING TO CARRY AND EVERYTHING THAT COMES WITH IT!!! is perfect and bob points out how do carrier or society know who has the knowledge and has excepted responsibility While many intuitively understand, there are others who don’t. CCW training is only the start of the education process, but it is not required everywhere and there is no guarantee that folks attending training will understand they need to continue to get training and grow their knowledge to adequately understand the responsibility they have accepted.

        I would argue that bob c’s criteria helps ensure firearms proficiency but does not in any way demonstrate that responsibility is understood. Even if it did, how would this panel be administered without violating 2nd amendment rights? Certainly the government cant be trusted to administer.

        • crimsonfalcon07

          The criteria listed above certainly have the potential to be used to disqualify people from carrying unjustly, although I think the point is still a good one. It’s the rare college student who is mature enough to handle the responsibilities of college, let alone adding in a firearm. Not an issue I’m prepared to tackle without more thought.

          What concerns me about this article is the author’s suggestion that concealed carriers act as first responders. I think that’s foolish. When first responders arrive on the scene of a shooting, the LAST thing that they need is a posse of do-gooder CCW holders with guns to sort out from the active shooter, waving their permits and suggesting strongly that they be allowed to help, etc. That’s foolishness. If you’re going to CCW, defend yourself if necessary, but otherwise stay out of the way and don’t make things harder for the police when they arrive. If you want to be “securing classrooms and shelters” and providing “eyes on the ground” for the police, join the police force. Otherwise, you’re almost guaranteed to slow the process down. The odds of a police force wanting civilian gun wielders wandering around during an active shooter incident are negligible at best. I have no problem with people defending themselves, but this article suggests that CCW permit holders should deputize themselves, and that’s arrant stupidity.

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        • bob c

          Bob P, these step I mentioned in no way would violate 2nd amendment rights, the criteria I mentioned are the same for police and armed security in the state of PA. The parts left out was the several months of class and physical training and learning the criminal code and testing. Just because one fails his Act 120 cert or Act 235 doesn’t affect his right to carry concealed, it just means he can not carry a lethal weapon on the job, orbe a police officer. The same would apply to students or faculty, they would just not be able to carry on school grounds if they were not approved by the panel.
          As far as paying for it, it would be up to the school s for faculty and if a student wished to carry, then it would be up to the student to pay for it.

          • Bob P

            bob c, Thinking about the average college student (their lack of life experiences, level of maturity, and the activities they participate in) I find myself liking your suggestions, although in my opinion they do infringe upon the right to carry as does a CCW permit. However, I would not like the standard applied to me. I am 66, recently had hyperactive thyroid, when it was cured some symptoms remained. Those symptoms were subsequently diagnosed as a mild case of a condition thought to be a mental illness. Now taking a small dose of medication that has resulted in thought process and decision making that is better than it ever was. (Have never been arrested, have held the same Engineering job for 40+ years, etc.) I would not like my qualifications for CCW permit to be determine by a psychologist, physician, or dean.

            I do like your idea of a panel ( with sufficient separation from government), overseen by current & retired police and military with input from other professions. Trumps recent position paper on 2nd amendment suggested a nationwide CCW policy, I think your and other ideas in this discussion would be a great starting point.

        • bob c

          Food for thought on my last post, make it an elective course. Instructors being former or retired law enforcent. Police, State Patrol, Or even FBI etc.

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        • Jason Donovan

          Both Bobs, I completely understand your points about maturity and infringing on 2nd amendment rights. How do you prevent the immature from obtaining something they simply aren’t ready to accept responsibility for? Sadly, I once considered some type of class similar to driver’s licenses where to drive a normal vehicle you need a class A, then as you want to drive different things, motorcycles and large vehicles, it required other types of class driver’s license. While this made sense when considering that certain places like schools and federal buildings required higher level or class permits, it too fell apart with the 2nd amendment rights being infringed. The bottom line is there is no real way to enforce or restrict those “immature” persons from carrying without also infringing on their rights. Lets say there is a 21 year old immature guy who regularly drank and took pride in his many stories of waking up in strange places after a night of drinking. While he is a poster child for making bad choices and all responsible gun owners would cringe knowing he is carrying, he too has every right to protect himself as do the rest of us. I agree its a scary thought that he be armed, but lets say he is required to take a certain number of classes before he can carry. If something happens while he is taking those classes and he is inured or killed whereas he could be alive if he were armed and NOT required to take those classes, you’ll be screaming his rights were infringed and led to his injuries or death. I was a young dumb kid too but like everyone, we all grow up at some point (hopefully). I think it is fair to require basic concealed carry classes if you wish to carry concealed and during those classes, the point is driven home that it is a right, but also a responsibility and make sure they reiterate that point till ears are bleeding. Before I took my concealed carry class, I was oblivious to the costs involved if I ever had to pull and fire or even pull my weapon in self defense. Now, I realize the ramifications for my actions and can’t declare ignorance ever again.

          So, Do I feel everyone is ready to carry? NOT A CHANCE! They can be educated and should before they carry but I have no doubt most have no clue to the responsibility involved with carrying. Do I feel we need to regulate those allowed to prevent immature persons till they are ready? Again, very slippery slope and no. I understand and agree with you that there are some very immature people out there but even they deserve the right to protect themselves and if we “regulate” it, we are only giving anti-gunners excuses by suggesting that “we regulate to prevent immature, so why not regulate this group or that group too.” I fully comprehend the problems this may cause but I also see the problems caused if we did regulate. The sad truth is, at 18, kids are considered adults even though any parent would argue they still have no clue and don’t act like it. We make it clear that at 18 they can be held accountable and convicted as an adult so we need to make it clear to our kids that if they do choose to take on this responsibility, they need to understand the depth of this responsibility so they do so aware and not clueless.We need to understand that if we choose to make 18 the legal age for adulthood, then we also need to understand there is a certain learning curve that come with it. We need to understand that 18 year olds are still naive and don’t know everything but we need to embrace that and accept that while they may not know everything, we still need to give them our faith that they can and will make the right choices and protect themselves as we, the much older and wiser generations do.

          • Bob P

            Jason,
            Another great commentary. I agree it’s not reasonable to think we can regulate maturity and responsibility without violating rights. We can only teach those who will listen.

  • GyMack

    College staff probably should not be armed. The average Instructor @ a college is a LibTard and would not defend anyone. As far as students are concerned – I would trust them more than faculty staff.
    Definitely allow vet’s to carry as they know what it is like to protect others and do so without hesitation.
    Most major colleges are teaching students to rebel against our country and they love racists and pedophiles.

    • Jason Donovan

      that is an extremely narrow minded view and shows your complete ignorance. One of my best friends is an instructor at a college and is also a well travelled competition shooter who has many awards and trophies for his hobby. Suggesting that the average instructor is a “Libtard” still means you accept that there are abnormal instructors who aren’t and your statement is that much more ridiculous.

      • GyMack

        You apparently have not been to a college lately.
        If you reside in a liberal state, the majority of college professors are liberal extremists.
        Your comment shows that you are unaware of what goes on in college lately.
        Stop whining young man.

        • Jason Donovan

          Thank you for your “Young Man” part. I always take it as a compliment when called young. As for your assumptions, please look up towards the top where I explain I am a subject matter expert for physical security for nearly every school in my area for several decades and since my area is SoCal, that means I have well over 50 colleges to choose from. I would imagine you also consider SoCal part of the liberal states since it is. I don’t have any issue finding professors who are not liberal. I work amongst them all the time. Some college campuses have a greater population of liberal professors and staff then others but no matter where we are talking, there always still exist a large population of NON liberal thinkers amongst the group. You clearly speak from experience from 1 college, I speak from experience from countless. Basically what you’re implying is that if you were to meet someone from Russia, having never met anyone else from russia, and they were rude, you’d assume all russians are rude because based on your limited exposure, you draw a false conclusion. Well, that’s nice, but I prefer the method of taking more than one, in fact many and averaging out an opinion based on a wide range of colleges. If that isn’t enough for you, I also have invited several “Liberal” staff members to gun ranges as part of an education for them. So far to date (and yes I’ve kept record) I have brought 216 people to the gun range and of that, 56 were themselves shooters. So that means that i introduced 160 over the last few years to a gun range to educate and remove the stigma of firearms. Of the 160, almost half reached out to me after the fact and asked me questions about firearms as they were considering purchasing one themselves. I won’t try and tell you about them all, but rest assured that when given the chance to experience firearms up close and personal for free with their peers, I rarely get turned down. Most come to prove beyond any doubt that guns are evil and leave with a much different perspective. So, I guess my opinion is far broader than yours because i encounter opposition all the time to my comments that no matter what technology they install, NOTHING can stop a gunman except another gun returning fire. If you wish to challenge me, please bring something more than insults or your very small perspective and pass it off as if its fact.

          • GyMack

            LOL I began teaching marksmanship training back in 1975. Have taught and qualified well over 3,000 shooters on a wide variety of courses of fire. Note: this does not include re qualification.
            Not sure what colleges you have found faculty staff who were not liberals.
            Of the liberals that I have taught roughly 55% qualified in the basic marksman range, 35% qualified in the sharpshooter category and the remainder qualified in the expert range.
            Those that had to qualify – for job purposes – did qualify. Some it took several attempts – but ended up qualified.
            There were other liberals that went to the range and shot for familiarization, because they did not want to carry.
            The main subject that the liberals rejected was use of force. They basically rejected SCOTUS opinion on Graham v. Connor. Even some of those who worked in Law Enforcement that were liberal felt that they would not pull their firearm unless they were about to die.
            So in a guestimation I would say I have provided marksmanship training to around 400 liberal students in the past. And it took a lot of one on one coaching so that they could apply the fundamentals. Liberals by far make up the majority of staff at colleges throughout this country, including the staffers residing in foreign countries who conduct classes for Americans and foreign students.
            Based on your posts I believe you have lived in California all of your life. That’s a good and bad thing at the same time.

            America is safer when liberals are not armed.

          • Jason Donovan

            I need to make it clear, you use the term liberal as if its a bad thing. Who cares if someone is liberal or not. I don’t hate someone because of their views or political affiliation. I don’t hate you because we differ on our opinions. You want to clearly identify people into groups and hate the whole group and frankly, its a wasted effort. Just because someone may be liberal on one aspect doesn’t mean they are across the board or their opinions can’t change as new information comes to light. If you support our constitution you have to also support those whose opinions differ and their right to speak their mind. If you wish to figure out my political affiliation, then good luck because I don’t have one. I agree with Conservative Republicans on some accounts and Liberal Democrats on others. I love shooting and support our right to own and use firearms just as I support concealed carry as I have a permit myself. Why would I also add then that I might agree with Liberal Democrats, because I agree that if two people of the same sex want to marry, they should have every right to be as miserable as I was in my first marriage. Why do gay couples get lucky and not have to suffer through a divorce while the rest of us do including alimony and child support till we can barely survive month to month. Ok, that was more a dig at the system revolving around divorce then about our discussion but I hope you understand that as with any party affiliation, you might agree with some, maybe even a majority of the talking points, but no one is ever going to agree with every aspect of their party and that alone is a reason to give people a chance because no matter what they claim to be, they can and do make choices based on information they learn and form an opinion on. When I was in Basic training, there was a guy who claimed he didn’t want to fight. He wanted to be there to be a medic and help people but he had to go through basic/boot camp first and he was adverse to fighting. One day the Drill walked over and slapped him and asked, “Are you ready to defend yourself yet?” He would do it again, and again till finally the guy fought back and I will never forget the drill’s next words, “I’m giving you the tools to survive, I don’t care what you do with them after you leave here, but until I see that you’ve learned them, I won’t stop.” The same can be said for your students or any of your claims about “liberals” if they choose to defend themselves, that is their choice, if they don’t, who cares…its their choice and something they have to live with no matter how short their lives may be if they don’t defend themselves. My neighbor is a liberal. She is 70’ish and can’t stand violence but she is terrified because she lives alone and a friend of hers had a break in. So, she went and got a gun. She knew I was into guns so she asked if I might help her learn to shoot it and I not only did, I have extended her an invite anytime I go to the range and she has accepted several times. She hates violence but when faced with a threat, she is not going to roll over and play dead, she wants to have a choice.

            As for your comments regarding my place of residence, Yes I live in California. I was not born here nor will I remain here indefinitely because I grow weary of the nonsense in this state. I have lived in 6 other states while growing up because I was a military brat. I knew how to fire a rifle before I could walk and owned my first rifle before any of my friends had their first kiss. My opinions on firearms is not because I live here, my opinion is derived from years of shooting and living in many states around the USA and realizing there are many ways to look at things and I have based my opinions on all my experiences. When I did first move to Cali, I knew people who have never seen snow. Who have never fired a gun, who have never even travelled outside California. Even as an adult, I have friends still whose only place they’ve ever been outside of California is Las Vegas. So, it isn’t hard to understand why californians think the way they do, they are extremely sheltered and narrow minded because they ONLY know what resides in their little bubble. The same can be said for people in the USA vs those who have lived outside the US. When I came back to the US after living elsewhere for several years, I was stunned how naive Americans were with regards to many different aspects of the world. So, you assuming you know me because of a few comments or labeling me and trying to fit me into some group shows a severe arrogance on your part. I have no idea who you are or what experiences have led you to think as you do and I’d be an idiot to assume I could guess. The only guess I would venture at is that you are most definitely the type who needs to label people to group them together so you can hate them all. What a waste of time.

          • GyMack

            You almost made it through a post without talking smack. You are the one who creates the largest group and that is Jason v. Anyone who disagrees with you.

            Thanks for your service.

            Now if you were to dump your ego – you might just get along with others.

  • Bob

    Several of the commenters have said that they would not approve of allowing students to carry on campus, or only after some training, or only certain students, etc.; and they give several rational reasons why.
    All of those comments are good in theory, however they ignore the facts. Several universities already allow students and staff to concealed-carry on campus, and there has been NO PROBLEM on those campuses.

    All of your theoretical arguments, all of your predictions and concerns, mean nothing in the face of the facts. Everything that you say could happen, has not happened. Gun control folks are the ones always talking about “the wild west” and “blood in the streets”. Gun rights people should be smarted than that.

    So it has already been proven that allowing concealed carry on university campuses is OK. Then we should allow it on every campus nationwide.

    • Jason Donovan

      The absence of information does not constitute actual facts. Please note that I’m not trying to bust anyone’s balls here, just explain the alternative. While I agree there are likely many people who carry without incident, there are also many cases where the absence of information does not constitute factual data. I don’t hear about death in my county and yet I have no doubt it happens every day. I don’t hear about rape or spousal abuse yet I have no doubt that happens too. NOT hearing about something does not mean something else is working…period. While we may not be hearing about students carrying, that doesn’t mean it is working, only that it hasn’t been mainstream news yet. Please don’t jump to conclusions because you have had a lack of information. If you want to base your opinions on something, BASE THEM ON FACTS! I’m not trying to pick on you Bob, I’m just a little gun shy because I too used to base my opinions on a lack of information and it only served to bite me in the rear. Its best to base your opinion on actual facts and not jump to any conclusions. Then no one can argue your position without proving your point. If there is no data, simply state, there is no data and you can’t offer an opinion one way or another without more data but don’t suggest that because you haven’t heard anything that it must be true. That is absurd and naive.

      • Bob

        With all the liberals who desperately want to abolish or prevent guns on college campuses, if there were any data, we would be hearing it as often as it happened. The media would definitely put every incident on the national news. In fact, the murder at Delta State was nothing more than a common murder suicide by an angry husband, but the press trumpeted it (loudly) as a “School shooting” to make it sound much more horrific than it was, and then they attempted to use it for every bit of propaganda value they could get from it.

        If there were actual incidents where concealed carry on campus caused a problem, the gun-control folks would be citing them when arguing against guns on campus. However, what we are seeing is that they are forced to use words like “could”, “will”, “might”, “would”, etc. to talk about theoretical “possibilities”, because they can’t talk about actual incidents that didn’t happen.

        Believe me. If there were Any Problem with guns on campuses we would know about it. So I conclude that there is “no data”, because there are no incidents to report on.

  • Deedon4

    Just allowing either concealed carry or open carry will be enough to deter most of the domestic terrorists that want a gun free zone in which to carry out their massacre. It is the gun free zones that invite the multiple deaths. The perps won’t know or care if the carriers are well trained or not. This not to say a person does not need to be trained to carry. I live in a state that does not require training to get a carry permit but I did get the training prior to acquiring my first gun.

  • Sparky43207

    I will agree with you wholeheartedly. Here in Ohio, another invitation to a mass shooter is our government buildings. If I need to go to the City hall or even a local library, I have to leave my weapon in my vehicle and walk through dark garages or parking lots. When are they going to learn that it isn’t those of us who obey the signs that they have to fear?

    • Jason Donovan

      I hate to be the barer or bad news, but I spoke to a criminal type who said it best, “No one will tell me when or where I can protect myself. I carry a gun to survive not to be a law abiding citizen.” Before I was able to obtain a Concealed carry license, my area was not permitting licenses. As such, I chose to carry without a license and even on one occasion was told by retired officers who I worked with, TO CARRY. When push comes to shove, is it better to ask for forgiveness or permission? Personally, I carried illegally far longer than I carried legally only because I was out in areas too remote to call anyone for help and chose to carry for my own safety. Sure I could have been arrested for possession but it comes down to what is more important, having the tools to protect yourself or staying within the law? I won’t tell anyone what to choose, I only can speak to what was more important for myself when I didn’t have a license.

  • Xavier S

    I am a student at AZ State University. I may not be 21 yet, but I have wished all through my college career that I would at least be able to carry on campus once I do turn 21. But unfortunately AZ has laws against campus carry. It would be nice to at least allow people with a CCW permit to campus carry..

    And though we can’t carry a firearm, I will admit that the campus policies allow a pocket knife within 5in (which is funny because I do believe the state laws are 4in) which I do carry at least a couple pocket knives. ALSO, ASU Police at my campus even recommended to several large group of students and staff during safety lessons to carry pepperspray and/or a taser which IS against school policy. I take this as an indirect confession from campus police that even on our much smaller campus (not the main campus) that they can’t always be there to help us ward off an attacker.

    • Jason Donovan

      While I don’t know the laws pertaining to AZ, I can state that in California, my CCW instructor made it clear to all of the class the following, “If you choose to carry on a college campus, that is your choice. If someone finds out and chooses to expel you from school or have you arrested, that is their choice. Regardless, if the worst thing you face is being expelled and having to find a new school while preserving your rights and staying alive, then so be it, at least you are alive. In other words, if you choose to carry on a college campus, that is your choice but know they can and likely will expel you and force you to leave the college. However, if you had to protect yourself using your firearm, would it be better to be alive and expelled, or dead and adhering to the rules?

    • Check your FB email.

  • Melinda

    I’m a Mississippi resident
    and student at The University of Southern Mississippi in Hattiesburg. This is
    an issue that is very important to me. I’ve had several night classes at USM in
    buildings with very poorly lit parking areas and that’s always been a concern
    for me. The school is not in a good part of town to begin with. The
    Mississippi attorney general has published an official opinion that basically
    says that USM (or any other school) can legally keep students and teachers from
    carrying on campus, even if they are enhanced carry permit holders like myself.
    If I weren’t a student or teacher at the school, I could legally carry
    concealed with no problem. I don’t think that’s fair.

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