Here’s a quick lesson on what NOT to do in an argument.
A resident of Youngstown, OH, Tonya Woolensack, was charged with felony tampering with evidence and misdemeanor counts of aggravated menacing and carrying a concealed weapon after brandishing her pistol during an argument in Boardman Park.
A man was walking with his girlfriend and his dog when another man’s unleashed dog ran up and started to fight with his dog.
(One of my pet peeves BTW. I always keep my dogs on a leash other than in my own house or backyard)
The two men got into an argument over the dog fight. That’s when Tonya appeared, pulled her pistol and threatened to shoot the man whose dog was attacked. Unfortunately this woman did have a concealed carry license. It was expired but she was still in the grace period to have it renewed. She then wrapped the pistol in a coat, stuffed it in a backpack and initially denied having a gun when questioned by the police. I’m pretty sure she knew she was in the wrong.
We’ve written multiple articles on brandishing, What Does Brandishing Mean? And Why You Should Never Do It and Brandishing and Improper Exhibition of a Firearm to name a few. Just remember, you need to feel that your life is in danger before pulling your firearm. Verbal arguments are not a reason to pull your pistol and threaten to shoot someone. Please don’t give concealed carriers a bad rep like this woman.
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This woman needs to have her concealed carry revoked. Just think if the other guy had a firearm? He would have had every right to shoot for having his life threatened. She also seems to be not mentally stable either.
You don’t need a CCW in AZ to carry.
Thanks for the correction. I was going by what was reported.
true, But maybe if she renewed her ccw and paid attention in class maybe she would have not been so stupid
Of course it will be revoked! She now has a criminal history and soon to be felony conviction.
And that needs to be the last time she is allowed to carry.
She has shown a glaring lack of judgment and responsibility, two of the things one needs in abundance if one carries a firearm.
This is why I believe everyone should have to have a certain amount of training before they are allowed to carry a firearm! Does it not bother you that someone who has never fired a gun in their life can walk in, buy a gun, get a CCW and start carrying it concealed?
I believe firmly in the 2nd, but also believe that anyone carrying should have proper training.
I agree that everyone should have training but I don’t think it should be legislated as a mandatory requirement to have training in order to exercise our second amendment right. It’s like saying we should make training a requirement before you exercise your 1st amendment rights to free speech. Part of being a free country means having certain rights that are ours until we prove we can not handle them. We go down a slippery slope if we make it mandatory to earn certain rights.
There are so many people who should have the 1st stripped away from them!
However, the 1st is not able to fire a projectile at 1,100+fps into another person to kill them. Let us remember that rights come with responsibilities. I am not at all saying that someone needs training in order to purchase or possess a gun, only to carry one.
I know most pro-gun people will disagree with me on this, but I deeply believe that if anyone is going to carry a firearm, concealed or opened, they should have basic firearm training and actualy have knowledge of the laws surrounding this right.
I think history has shown speech to be far more deadly than firearms. But you know what, I respect your opinion b/c too many Americans (close friends of mine) have died so that you could be free enough to post your opinions in public.
I hear you totally! And it’s really nice to debate with someone who can also respect! Yes, many, many have died to protect our freedoms! And you know what really gets me? Are the people who throw the US Flag on the ground and trample it and then stand behind the very rights that flag represents! But that is not what this post is about!
I hear you totally!
I am sure you believe that, but it is 100% FALSE. In point of fact, you don’t get a word of what David P said. You are NOT engaging is a respectful debate. You are denying the very basis of the debate.
Incorrect, Steven, I do totally get what David is saying and fully respect it. I also realized that my thought that training should be required is not something that will happen on a wide basis.
You BELIEVE you get what you THINK David said, but what your comment indicates you heard is NOT what he said.
Not that easy. I don’t know about other states but it requires a class in mine and range time, unless you have prior law enforcement training. I believe most states have some training requirement.
everyone should get training along with driving lessons in school
They should have the training by age 10, whether or not they choose to carry. What bothers me is that you BELIEVE your last question REMOTELY resembles reality.
While I agree with the need for training, I also know it won’t help. You need training to get a drivers license, but most people show zero education when driving. Unfortunately the same is happening with guns, which is why it’s so easy for the democrat gun grabbers to plead their case. be safe
I agree with you totally. I’ve been around guns my whole life, but just took my CCW class and applied for my permit. I also bought my first gun recently instead of using ones that have been gifted to me from a relative.
As a law abiding citizen I was able to get a brand new gun in less than ten minutes. In order to get my CCW, I have to pay for class, the permit, and give my fingerprints, plus wait up to 45 days (I live in Missouri) while they check all of that.
It bothers me that I can walk in and get a gun that easy with no proof that I can shoot it correctly or am knowledgeable of firearm safety, while I have to jump through so many hoops to legally carry it concealed.
As a side note on different topic than yours, a criminal or a friend with a clean record is not going to take the time and money to get a CCW, but without fingerprinting or anything can go get a gun here in Missouri with a clear background check and 20 minutes of their time and then illegally carry it concealed. That seems ass backwards to me.
If I have anything wrong, please feel free to respectfully correct me as I am new to concealed carrying and buying guns, aside from talking to friends and family and what I’ve read on the internet.
As much as I feel this way, as it’s been pointed out, it’s not practical, and if civilians were forced to get training, the government would keep making it more and more difficult for that training to happen and/or increase the training level so high that many people could not afford it. So in most states, it’s really up to individuals to realize the importance of training and to maintain their skill.
Something else that you touched on that is very important, is that the criminals will not bother with any of this; all that is accomplished by disarming US citizens is increasing criminal activity.
Here in NH, we are a “shall issue” state, so pretty much, if you are breathing, at least 18 years of age, have no criminal history/DVPs, and no involuntary mental health admissions, you will be issued a permit. No finger prints, just a form and $10. Takes about 2 weeks as I recall. (I have over simplified the requirements, but that’s them in a nutshell)
Down in MA, you need a state permit to even purchase and/or posses a firearm. In Maine, they just dropped the need for a permit and you can carry concealed without a permit. Maine did put some restrictions on a few places where you still need a permit, but if you have a resident permit from another state, you’re covered for those locations, too. Vermont does not require a permit at all.
No Timothy, I’m not in favor of mandatory training. You can’t train stupidity out of someone. Further, once you go down that road you wind up with the State mandating hours then days of training just to intimidate people into NOT getting permits. A permit just so you can defend yourself? And there are people who are just fine with this! We have become so used to government telling us what to do we’ve forgotten that “rights” cannot be legislated. We better damned well start remembering that government doesn’t tell us what to do we tell government what we want it to do and first on that list should be it (Govt) never restricts our right to defend ourselves.
Yes, that could happen. But when a 21 year old kid feels threatened and draws a weapon that he has zero training with and started shooting, what is going to happen?
Damn, it’s all a catch 22, this sucks! Let’s just pray that people who choose to carry are smart enough to learn how to use it!
We have laws to handle these situations already. The last thing we need is more laws on top of existing laws. As far as “could happen” is concerned it already HAS happened in all too many States already. Let’s start repealing gun laws, after all criminals are exempt from any and all gun registration laws because they violate their Fifth Amendment Rights, so who do they impact, the law abiding citizen!
I agree with what you are saying, but let’s remember this: as a civilian, if you draw your gun and fire at a criminal and you miss and kill someone else, of your round goes through and through and kills someone else, you will be prosecuted for murder and you will probably loose that fight. Of course, if you are police officer, it just comers under “oops” and that’s the end of it criminally (civilly, however. . .)
I want to know as a civilian that any other civilian out there carrying a gun actually knows how to shoot it!
Will this happen? NO. Why not? Because laws to require it would do too much damage to the 2nd, and too many people are too stupid to get the proper training.
If you actually ARE threatened and draw your gun and “start shooting” so what? You pull a knife on me and you’re 15 feet away from me I’m going to shoot you on the spot, no questions asked. I’ve been threatened, I reacted with an appropriate response. What’s your problem?
Boardman Park is in Youngstown Ohio. Youngstown Arizona, being in Arizona, has no concealed carry permit requirement as Arizona is constitutional carry.
Some open carry states still have ccw permits. As far as I know open carry does not require any kind of training.
Depends on the State. There are one or two States that allow open carry but only if you already have a concealed carry permit. Most states that have open carry do not require a permit or training nor should they. Self defense is not something the State should EVER have the power to regulate. It is an inalienable right that we have as human beings.
Tennessee allows open carry but you do have to have a CCW permit to do it…openly. Can carry open or concealed, loaded or unloaded, in your car with no permit though.
I want to add a thought to another comment given earlier that stated, “I believe firmly in the 2nd, but…..”. No…you don’t. There are no buts in the 2A.
I actually predicted incidents such as this one years ago when it became apparent that there was a more or less nation wide movement towards “Shall Issue” legislation. It seemed inevitable that a few bad apples would turn up and, hopefully, get weeded out. Gun politics is tricky enough without such people. Pulling a gun should be the last resort.
You predicted this would happen HOURLY, not rarely enough to be news.
Exactly. There are more than 12 million concealed permit holders and no one has any idea how many open carriers. The number that screw up is minuscule. The media loves to play up every incident, we should pay it no attention, let the legal system handle it.
Common Sense is sadly not common anymore, now it seems to be rare.
Oh baloney. Out of more than 12 million concealed permit holders and no one knows how many open carriers how many screw up? Damn few. Stop making it sound like this is rampant and the majority.
1. I’m talking about this woman and making the statement she has no damn common sense.
2. Where the hell does open carriers come into this conversation?
3. There have been hundreds of cases where gun saved lives but when politicians try and take our guns, they don’t remember any of those events, they bring up things like this woman being an idiot and not using her damn brain like she should.
4. The first thing I learned in my concealed carry class is, “Don’t be a hero and look for trouble.” That is exactly what this bimbo did.
5. Crime is lower than it has been for years, more people carry now then ever, and we don’t need idiots acting like idiots because it sets us all back. THAT IS MY POINT!!!
Your comment made it sound as though you believe the majority don’t exercise common sense. If you had simply said a very few don’t exercise common sense we wouldn’t be having this conversation.
I think its safe to say, I made a comment that you took personally. How about you wipe the tears away and grow up and realize my comment isn’t wrong (as sad as it is).
Well, now that we know you want us to take it at face value I’ll go ahead and say it, not only are you wrong but you have absolutely no proof that, as a general rule, “common sense is not common anymore…”. Your statement lumps all gun owners and carriers together. You made zero attempt to qualify your mis-statement to cover only the one person mentioned.
So, wipe the sanctimonious attitude from your posting. Most people, especially gun owners, do exercise common sense. If you have hard facts (not anecdotal) let’s see ’em.
Seriously, go ride a cactus naked you dumb prick. Everyday people exhibit a lack of common sense. Looking at their phones while driving knowing its not smart, walking out into a street without looking, being completely oblivious to dangers or obvious things. Why you decided to chime in with a general observation as if I was saying, “Vanns40 has no common sense” is beyond me. However, since we’re on the topic of you, why do you feel everything’s about you? Is it narcissism or ego? Why you suddenly felt my comment was directly related to you is funny but as it is, there are a lot of stupid people out there. Didn’t at any point say a specific group, didn’t single out a specific race, ethnicity, or gender…I’m saying as a whole, people aren’t using their damn brains as much as they should. You want stats to back it up? Look at the national accident reports…you can read through them and see the scores of idiots who aren’t paying attention to the road when they should because they instead wanted to pay attention to something far less important. As for gun people, there are a lot of stupid gun people too. While I may be responsible and secure my firearms in a safe, how many others do? Do they all? do all gun owners with kids secure them in a safe or lock box or do they store them on some shelf or closet like an idiot where the kids can get to them? I don’t think it takes a genius to show the scores of purely stupid people out there NOT using their brain but in case you aren’t getting what I’m throwing, YES THERE ARE LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT USING COMMON SENSE…INCLUDING YOU! Had you used common sense, you’d have kept your mouth shut and realized that no matter whether there are more or less using common sense, there are still a lot who aren’t using common sense and my statement wasn’t worth arguing over like a little girl. Now, go shove that head back up your back side and piss off.
So now for lack of any hard facts you resort to name calling. How adult of you. I never said this was about me, you did. Further, there are more than 340 million folks in this country and your assertions that most don’t use common sense are baseless and with nothing to back them up.
Again, let’s see the numbers not some general accusation that most or many do this. Let’s take firearms permit holders for one example. The actual number of concealed permit holders that misuse their firearms in any way is less than one tenth of one percent. Perhaps to you that’s “most” but to anyone else it’s minuscule.
I find this conversation boring! I made a statement that common sense isn’t so common anymore, it seems to be rare and you got butt hurt. I see it all the time and even gave you some basic examples and yet you keep coming back asking for hard facts. Well brain child, there are no “hard facts” you twit! Any statistic you see whether the FBI, DOJ, or some special interest group are biased and you have no idea what questions were asked, how the data was collected, and even if that was ALL the data or not. How in the hell can you assume hard facts when there is admittedly almost no information on concealed carriers using their firearms effectively? The ONLY data we see is when a police report is filed or the media runs the story. There is no police report of the incident where my weapon saved my life because the idiots bolted when they figured out I was armed. There was no police report for my wife’s incident when our kids and she were walking in a parking lot and were confronted by a couple young idiots who saw the business end of her revolver and bolted leaving a trail of urine to track them. These are 2 examples of successful uses of concealed carry and neither would ever show in any nonsense statistics you might find because they were never reported. This is the problem with most cases where concealed carriers are forced to rely on their weapon. The only ones we hear about are the ones where police are involved or media runs the story…period. As for your “hard facts”…please stop being so stupid as to think statistics are viable. In college I attended a statistics course and the first day the instructor asked the class who liked carrots and most raised their hands. Then he asked who liked brussel sprouts over carrots and 2 raised their hands. He then took the 2 and 1 other person, put them in front and made the following statement, “2 out of 3 students in my class prefer brussel sprouts over carrots.” I have personally collected statistical data and you can make up anything by how you ask the questions, who you ask, and where you ask. Most firearm related information is from local police and law enforcement departments but not everyone nor every incident is reported so while data may be collected, it isn’t even accurate to begin with and may not be precise as some places may say a firearm was involved but while someone may have been shot in the leg, they were killed by other means but it still gets listed as firearm involved death. I saw one incident where a guy was target shooting and it ricocheted and it was called a suicide. So the data isn’t always accurate to begin with and you are wanting to use it as a basis for your argument. Just stop.
I applaud people taking responsibility and carrying a concealed firearm. There is an 11 min average response time for police to arrive and in rural areas it may be longer. I have been in areas where I have no cell coverage and response exceeds an hour so you won’t get me arguing with you on the merits of concealed carry. I do however want ALL concealed carriers to understand that having a tool they can use to protect themselves does NOT deputize them or permit them to get involved with things that don’t threaten lives. I’ve seen lots of examples where concealed carriers take it upon themselves to get involved and put themselves in the middle of incidents because they feel empowered. That is stupid and does not exhibit common sense. Your choice to carry is to protect your life, the lives of your family and friends, and might even be to protect innocent lives that you could effectively save. It doesn’t give you license to intercede if someone is stealing property, it doesn’t require you to instigate and it doesn’t demand you get in the middle of situations that might otherwise have fizzled out on their own. My gun, my bullets, and my ass is on the line if I draw and use it to do more than protect my own interests. This lady clearly was getting involved where she shouldn’t have and took action when she shouldn’t have.
If you come at me with anymore nonsense about facts or statistics, I’m going to ask you to cite your own and where they came from, how the data was collected, from whom, what does it include and exclude, how was each incident categorized, is there notes on the data to identify mistakes, and why should I trust it? My instructor was well respected, had a great reputation, worked for many government groups in his life, and was highly sought for his opinion and experience…but it doesn’t make his statement any better because the data was selectively collected and presented in a way to offer a biased opinion. It’s what the idiots anti-gunners do all the time with their data and stats. so stop giving any validity to stats as they are all crap.
I stopped reading when you continued to show a lack of cogent verbal communication and continued to name call. That, by the way, was the third sentence.
I quit caring about anything you have to say since you’re too sensitive. I’ll send you a tissue later.
You men blaming women again?
NO, the fact this particular idiot happens to be female is not what the article is about.
You’re right…this article is about not drawing your firearm indiscriminately. Whether or not she had a CCW, or wasn’t required to, or had training or not, is not the issue. The issue is she drew her firearm over a verbal encounter between two other people…she was not even involved! Even if the argument came to blows, her life was not in jeopardy & therefore, no reason for the gun. But topping it of was the fact she tried to deny the deed & hide the firearm. Now, she stands to never be legally permitted to carry again.
Good judgement, responsibility, discernment, unfortunately are not automatic when owning a firearm but requiring the training before “allowing” someone to carry, goes against what we so adamantly pursue as our God given right. However, once that trust in the individual to exercise that right in a lawful manner is breached, their right to be armed should be revoked. With that, I have no problem.
I agree with at least most of what you say. I don’t see where ‘Your Emanance’ gets the idea anyone was blaming women as a group for anything.
Ignorance has no gender. Just because she’s a she has nothing to do with the stupidity of the act.
This is typical behavior from the types of people that would allow a vicious dog to be in a public place, let alone unleashed! I mean WTF! Now that she has these charges, and soon to be convictions on her file, she will not be allowed to renew her CCW as he pr rights to possess a handgun will be revoked because she committed an assault with a deadly weapon. How has this person gone through life with that kind of an attitude w/o incurring a criminal history that allowed her to get her CCW in a he first place?
Arizona law does NOT require a CCW to armed. Never the less her actions were wrong and she should not carry anyway
I always tell my students never pull your firearm for any reason except to protect yourself or your family from death or great grave bodily injury.
Obviously she won’t get that CC renewed nor should she, we don’t need ignorant people like her carrying. One of the fundamental things stressed in a CC Class…your concealed weapon is only withdrawn when you are going to use it.
Tonya was clearly irresponsible in several aspects, should never be allowed to carry in public again.
A great deal of knowledge & experience in several discrete concepts is needed to be a competent concealed carrier. Many aspects of Concealed Carry are unlikely to become self discovered (until it’s too late) even with extraordinary intelligence & common sense. I agree that training should be mandatory but also agree the government cant be an administrator or provider of training for a variety of reasons.
The responsible carriers need to create the system to acquire and demonstrate concealed carry competence before irresponsible carriers such as Tonya convince a majority that the 2nd amendment is the problem.
I disagree. Who are these “responsible carriers”? Who are they to tell anyone what they must do in order to be able to defend themselves? So I have to obey what you or someone else thinks is right for me before I can be able to have the means to defend myself from someone who wants to rob or murder me or rape my wife or commit mass murder in front of me? Respectfully, pound salt. I say that as a retired LEO and firearms instructor for 35 years.
I believe folks should get training but I also believe it’s up to them and no one has the right to mandate that training before you’re able to defend yourself.
No one needs to obey me or anyone else however, folks need to clearly understand when they are justifiably using their weapon to protect and prevent crime and when they are actually committing a crime. As a retired LEO you know the line is not clear and the repercussions for crossing the line can be life changing / life ending. My question to you is “Does knowledgeable society ( LEO’s Trainers experienced CCW ) have an obligation to those who are less knowledgeable? and what is that obligation?
And the answer to your question is qualified. Yes if they seek us out and an unqualified no if they do not. The ultimate responsibility falls upon the individual carrying the gun, period. We don’t have an obligation to educate the world, only those who seek us out.
As to that “line” you refer to, it is very clear and defined. If you are a citizen your job is not, I repeat not, to prevent crime. If you witness a crime be the very best WITNESS you can and do not insert yourself into the situation with one exception only, and that is at your discretion. If someone is in immediate danger of grievous bodily injury or death and you wish to intervene that is up to you. Pretty clear cut. Robbery at 7-11? Be a good witness, hide in a corner, don’t escalate anything. IF it escalates then make a decision based on saving your life or someone else’s.
I probably would have shot her… self defense for sure.
Bad idea…. Here it will get one time in the lockup…
There’s more to this story. I’d like to know the Race of the three individuals involved. The guy with the leashed dog is the aggrieved party in this. The female Nudnik seems to have taken the wrong side in this matter AND is a sneaky specimen that needs a legal hammering.
Could it possibly be that the free range dog owner and the Woolensack person are of the Dindu tribe ?